Itchy And Confused!

[Mr. Miserable]

Seems to be a reacurring topic here. If you can give me some hope, I think I can get through this! Brand new tub. Three weeks old. Bad case of itchy rash. I use chlorine and I check it faithfully everyday. The tub took a full bottle of spa down to get the ph in the normal level of the test trip. The ph seemed to settle there under the normal range. Everything looked fine but then the ITCH came on so we let that heal before sitting in it again (about 4 days). I have sat in it twice in the last week. Anyway, in trying to figure out why the itch, I noticed that the ph was fine, but the TA was a little low, so I added alkilinity increaser and that is now normal...and my ph reads ok, maybe just a tad on the high side (so by adding the increaser it did raise the ph level). So overall, the hardness is good, the ta is fine, the ph is fine but I'm scared to death to sit in it! There is a little foam when the jets are on high, which goes right away when you turn it to low speed. I love the tub and I have sat in tubs for a long time and have never had an allergic reaction. Last night when I felt everything was in balance, we sat in it for about 12 min. Well, today is the worst case I have had yet. My wife is covered and my son is who sat in it with us. I'm wondering if dumping the tub, sanitizing it and starting over is a good option. Swithing to bromine is an option....I just don't know what it would be. My thinking is that it can't be bacterial because I use plenty of chlorine...that is, I add everyday and it is always in the range it should be. It has to be a chemical reaction to the products in the tub. Any help or suggestions would help. The dealer seems optomistic yet unconcerned...and that is dissapointing to me. This thing has been a dream of mine and it wasn't cheap! It is a smaller tub...340 gallon Jacuzzi. Anyway....thanks!

[Mr. Miserable]

I forgot to add that I shock weekly with MPS.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Seems to be a reacurring topic here. If you can give me some hope, I think I can get through this! Brand new tub. Three weeks old. Bad case of itchy rash. I use chlorine and I check it faithfully everyday. The tub took a full bottle of spa down to get the ph in the normal level of the test trip. The ph seemed to settle there under the normal range. Everything looked fine but then the ITCH came on so we let that heal before sitting in it again (about 4 days). I have sat in it twice in the last week. Anyway, in trying to figure out why the itch, I noticed that the ph was fine, but the TA was a little low, so I added alkilinity increaser and that is now normal...and my ph reads ok, maybe just a tad on the high side (so by adding the increaser it did raise the ph level). So overall, the hardness is good, the ta is fine, the ph is fine but I'm scared to death to sit in it! There is a little foam when the jets are on high, which goes right away when you turn it to low speed. I love the tub and I have sat in tubs for a long time and have never had an allergic reaction. Last night when I felt everything was in balance, we sat in it for about 12 min. Well, today is the worst case I have had yet. My wife is covered and my son is who sat in it with us. I'm wondering if dumping the tub, sanitizing it and starting over is a good option. Swithing to bromine is an option....I just don't know what it would be. My thinking is that it can't be bacterial because I use plenty of chlorine...that is, I add everyday and it is always in the range it should be. It has to be a chemical reaction to the products in the tub. Any help or suggestions would help. The dealer seems optomistic yet unconcerned...and that is dissapointing to me. This thing has been a dream of mine and it wasn't cheap! It is a smaller tub...340 gallon Jacuzzi. Anyway....thanks!

What kind of chlorine? What is the CYA level? Are you using any "spa scents?" I would be a bit concerned since you all are rashy. Usually it may be one person that is sensitive to something. You should drain you tub after the first month anyway, it is suggested by several people on the forum. This will get all the risdual from the new plastics ect out of the water.

[Mr. Miserable]

Seems to be a reacurring topic here. If you can give me some hope, I think I can get through this! Brand new tub. Three weeks old. Bad case of itchy rash. I use chlorine and I check it faithfully everyday. The tub took a full bottle of spa down to get the ph in the normal level of the test trip. The ph seemed to settle there under the normal range. Everything looked fine but then the ITCH came on so we let that heal before sitting in it again (about 4 days). I have sat in it twice in the last week. Anyway, in trying to figure out why the itch, I noticed that the ph was fine, but the TA was a little low, so I added alkilinity increaser and that is now normal...and my ph reads ok, maybe just a tad on the high side (so by adding the increaser it did raise the ph level). So overall, the hardness is good, the ta is fine, the ph is fine but I'm scared to death to sit in it! There is a little foam when the jets are on high, which goes right away when you turn it to low speed. I love the tub and I have sat in tubs for a long time and have never had an allergic reaction. Last night when I felt everything was in balance, we sat in it for about 12 min. Well, today is the worst case I have had yet. My wife is covered and my son is who sat in it with us. I'm wondering if dumping the tub, sanitizing it and starting over is a good option. Swithing to bromine is an option....I just don't know what it would be. My thinking is that it can't be bacterial because I use plenty of chlorine...that is, I add everyday and it is always in the range it should be. It has to be a chemical reaction to the products in the tub. Any help or suggestions would help. The dealer seems optomistic yet unconcerned...and that is dissapointing to me. This thing has been a dream of mine and it wasn't cheap! It is a smaller tub...340 gallon Jacuzzi. Anyway....thanks!

What kind of chlorine? What is the CYA level? Are you using any "spa scents?" I would be a bit concerned since you all are rashy. Usually it may be one person that is sensitive to something. You should drain you tub after the first month anyway, it is suggested by several people on the forum. This will get all the risdual from the new plastics ect out of the water.

I use spa essentials chlorine. No spa scents at all. I am concerned because it was all three of us in the tub. How do you test for CYA and what does that stand for?

[chem geek]

The Spa Essentials Sanitizer Chlorinating Concentrate (granules) is Dichlor. What is the size of your spa in gallons? How much Dichlor (teaspoons, etc.) did you add and how frequently? Did you ever shock with this chlorine and if so, how much did you add and how frequently? How much use was there in the spa -- how many people for how long (minutes) how many times per day or week? When do you check the chlorine level -- before or after you soak? What level do you usually measure (in ppm FC)? You say you add MPS weekly -- what quantity (teaspoons or tablespoons, etc.)?

If you answer the above, we can figure out the CYA level since for every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, you add 9 ppm to CYA. Since it's only been a few weeks, I don't think you've got the level up really high unless you are using a lot or did some extra shocking. Your situation at 3 weeks is the earliest we've seen of having possible hot tub itch when using Dichlor -- it's usually 1 to 1.5 months or more. It's more likely to be something else, but knowing the CYA level will help figure that out. Changing the water as Hillbilly Hot Tub suggests should help regardless of cause (when you refill the spa and shock with chlorine, scrub the sides of the spa above the water line with spa water to remove any bacterial biofilms, just to be on the safe side).

Look at this table and see which characterizes your symptoms. From what you described, it sounds more like a chemical reaction, but what do you think?

You can test for CYA by getting a good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 kit you can get at a good online price here or the TF100 kit from tftestkits.com here with the latter having 36% more volume of reagents so is comparably priced "per test".

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Seems to be a reacurring topic here. If you can give me some hope, I think I can get through this! Brand new tub. Three weeks old. Bad case of itchy rash. I use chlorine and I check it faithfully everyday. The tub took a full bottle of spa down to get the ph in the normal level of the test trip. The ph seemed to settle there under the normal range. Everything looked fine but then the ITCH came on so we let that heal before sitting in it again (about 4 days). I have sat in it twice in the last week. Anyway, in trying to figure out why the itch, I noticed that the ph was fine, but the TA was a little low, so I added alkilinity increaser and that is now normal...and my ph reads ok, maybe just a tad on the high side (so by adding the increaser it did raise the ph level). So overall, the hardness is good, the ta is fine, the ph is fine but I'm scared to death to sit in it! There is a little foam when the jets are on high, which goes right away when you turn it to low speed. I love the tub and I have sat in tubs for a long time and have never had an allergic reaction. Last night when I felt everything was in balance, we sat in it for about 12 min. Well, today is the worst case I have had yet. My wife is covered and my son is who sat in it with us. I'm wondering if dumping the tub, sanitizing it and starting over is a good option. Swithing to bromine is an option....I just don't know what it would be. My thinking is that it can't be bacterial because I use plenty of chlorine...that is, I add everyday and it is always in the range it should be. It has to be a chemical reaction to the products in the tub. Any help or suggestions would help. The dealer seems optomistic yet unconcerned...and that is dissapointing to me. This thing has been a dream of mine and it wasn't cheap! It is a smaller tub...340 gallon Jacuzzi. Anyway....thanks!

What kind of chlorine? What is the CYA level? Are you using any "spa scents?" I would be a bit concerned since you all are rashy. Usually it may be one person that is sensitive to something. You should drain you tub after the first month anyway, it is suggested by several people on the forum. This will get all the risdual from the new plastics ect out of the water.

I use spa essentials chlorine. No spa scents at all. I am concerned because it was all three of us in the tub. How do you test for CYA and what does that stand for?

If you are using test strips, some have CYA on them. Test kits have a test in them for CYA. It stands for cyanic acid which is a stabilizer. It is in the spa essentials product you are using. The higher your level of CYA gets, the less effective the chlorine is and high levels of CYA also cause some people to itch. Usually, unless you have been adding a large amount of the chlorine, the CYA stays ok for about 3 months, which is when you need to dump the tub anyway.

I would start with the CYA test and do the water change anyway since most of us suggest it after your first month. Maybe you are reacting to the oils from the new plastics. If you itch with fresh water fill, you all may have an issue with chlorine, but I find that hard to beleive. Also, check the expiration on the test strips, if they are old ore exspired they will not read correctly.

[Mr. Miserable]

Ok, I test the water and add a tablespoon of chlorine generally every day. The spa is 340 gallons. I shock it once a week on Thursdays with 1 tblspoon of MPS. Since we have been itching, we have used the tub way less. We sat in it last Thursday night, we were gone the weekend and then we sat in it last night. We broke out last Thursday after sitting in it and again last night. Prior to breaking out, we sat in it daily. There is usually three to four of us that sit in it. We sat in it about 12-15 min per session. I check the chlorine at lunch and we sit in it in the evening. Around 9:00 p.m. As far as the testing measure I use test stips and the strip shows a reading between 7.2-7.4 for ph etc. I hope that helps you. One other thought. Weekly I add the stain and scale stuff and I have notice a harness reading a little above normal. So, I added two extra ounces of stain and scale to help bring that down a bit. Shouldn't be a problem. I talked again to the dealer and he wants me to super shock the system, 11 tblspoons of cholorine, run the tub for 45 min with the top off and then don't sit in it for three days. Once that is done, he said to sit in it and see if I break out again. At that point it should be just water. Does that sound correct to you?

Seems to be a reacurring topic here. If you can give me some hope, I think I can get through this! Brand new tub. Three weeks old. Bad case of itchy rash. I use chlorine and I check it faithfully everyday. The tub took a full bottle of spa down to get the ph in the normal level of the test trip. The ph seemed to settle there under the normal range. Everything looked fine but then the ITCH came on so we let that heal before sitting in it again (about 4 days). I have sat in it twice in the last week. Anyway, in trying to figure out why the itch, I noticed that the ph was fine, but the TA was a little low, so I added alkilinity increaser and that is now normal...and my ph reads ok, maybe just a tad on the high side (so by adding the increaser it did raise the ph level). So overall, the hardness is good, the ta is fine, the ph is fine but I'm scared to death to sit in it! There is a little foam when the jets are on high, which goes right away when you turn it to low speed. I love the tub and I have sat in tubs for a long time and have never had an allergic reaction. Last night when I felt everything was in balance, we sat in it for about 12 min. Well, today is the worst case I have had yet. My wife is covered and my son is who sat in it with us. I'm wondering if dumping the tub, sanitizing it and starting over is a good option. Swithing to bromine is an option....I just don't know what it would be. My thinking is that it can't be bacterial because I use plenty of chlorine...that is, I add everyday and it is always in the range it should be. It has to be a chemical reaction to the products in the tub. Any help or suggestions would help. The dealer seems optomistic yet unconcerned...and that is dissapointing to me. This thing has been a dream of mine and it wasn't cheap! It is a smaller tub...340 gallon Jacuzzi. Anyway....thanks!

What kind of chlorine? What is the CYA level? Are you using any "spa scents?" I would be a bit concerned since you all are rashy. Usually it may be one person that is sensitive to something. You should drain you tub after the first month anyway, it is suggested by several people on the forum. This will get all the risdual from the new plastics ect out of the water.

I use spa essentials chlorine. No spa scents at all. I am concerned because it was all three of us in the tub. How do you test for CYA and what does that stand for?

If you are using test strips, some have CYA on them. Test kits have a test in them for CYA. It stands for cyanic acid which is a stabilizer. It is in the spa essentials product you are using. The higher your level of CYA gets, the less effective the chlorine is and high levels of CYA also cause some people to itch. Usually, unless you have been adding a large amount of the chlorine, the CYA stays ok for about 3 months, which is when you need to dump the tub anyway.

I would start with the CYA test and do the water change anyway since most of us suggest it after your first month. Maybe you are reacting to the oils from the new plastics. If you itch with fresh water fill, you all may have an issue with chlorine, but I find that hard to beleive. Also, check the expiration on the test strips, if they are old ore exspired they will not read correctly.

[chem geek]

One tablespoon of Dichlor in 340 gallons would add 6.1 ppm FC and 5.6 ppm CYA. If done every day for 3 weeks that would build up around 118 ppm CYA so not extraordinary, but close to what some get at the one month mark.

3-4 people for about 15 minutes is 3/4 to 1 person-hour of soaking. You said that you tested pH, TA and hardness with test strips, but how do you test for chlorine? Do you also use test strips for that or just assume that you've been adding enough? The amount of chlorine you were adding when using the tub every day sounds about right given the bather load, but you should really test the chlorine level at lunch time to see if there is any measurable residual.

I don't think your sensitivity is related to the MPS since it gets broken down fairly quickly and you had a problem nearly a week after using it.

Super shocking the tub using Dichlor will increase the CYA by quite a bit which is not good. 11 tablespoons in 340 gallons would raise the FC to 67 ppm (quite high) and would add 61 ppm to CYA.

I think that Hillbily Hot Tub's advice is better which is to drain and refill the tub since that will get rid of whatever "new tub" chemicals may have been there. You can then do a high FC shock after the fresh fill of water, but not as high as the dealer recommended. Even the shock recommended upon startup with Nature2 is only 12 ppm FC and others who have fought hot tub itch have shocked to around 20 ppm FC, but not higher. If you use 3 tablespoons of your Dichlor in 340 gallons, then that would add 18.3 ppm FC and 16.7 ppm CYA which is reasonable to opening the spa. Be sure to scrub the area above the water line with this shock-level water.

As for what to do to maintain your spa after that, this is controversial so won't get into that here. You can see what happens over time -- if you don't get an itch, then it's likely that the problem was some chemical sensitivity to something initially in the new spa.

Richard

[Mr. Miserable]

Thanks so much for the advice. The strips I use do test for Chlorine. It is always in the low end of normal, but I have been adding chlorine even on days that we don't use it. I guess that is ok because as I understand it, bacteria will grow and take over when the chlorine is no longer present. When I took a water sample into the dealer the ph and ta levels were just fine. The Chlorine was slightly high even after having three soak last night, so it could have been quite high before we soaked. But, even if it was high, there was no smell and it wasn't high enough to cause the irritation. I will take this advice and let you know. I really appreciate the help!

[cplarsen]

Ok, I test the water and add a tablespoon of chlorine generally every day. The spa is 340 gallons. I shock it once a week on Thursdays with 1 tblspoon of MPS.

That's the same regime and brand I'm on, but I'm pretty sure the MPS bottle says 3 tablespoons. You may have never burned out all the combined chlorine.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Thanks so much for the advice. The strips I use do test for Chlorine. It is always in the low end of normal, but I have been adding chlorine even on days that we don't use it. I guess that is ok because as I understand it, bacteria will grow and take over when the chlorine is no longer present. When I took a water sample into the dealer the ph and ta levels were just fine. The Chlorine was slightly high even after having three soak last night, so it could have been quite high before we soaked. But, even if it was high, there was no smell and it wasn't high enough to cause the irritation. I will take this advice and let you know. I really appreciate the help!

As a note for the future, you said your calcium hardness was above normal so you used stain and scale to reduce it. First, stain and scale will not reduce calcium hardness, it helps prevent metals and scale from sticking/foaming on you tub and its components. You have to drain the water to reduce this. Second, unless you added calcium hardness increaser and added a bit to much, this means you have very hard water which could mean you have metals ect in your water which could be reacting with the chemicals and causing you to itch. If the hardness is this high from your tap water, I would suggest you use a pre filter to fill the tub to help remove the impurities/metals from your tap water.

[Mr. Miserable]

I will read the instructions on the shock stuff and if it is three tablespoons, than I have not put enough in. I have never added hardness increaser and yes we have hard water. I do have a water softner in the house, would it make sense to add soft water every time I add water to the tub instead of using the tap water?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I will read the instructions on the shock stuff and if it is three tablespoons, than I have not put enough in. I have never added hardness increaser and yes we have hard water. I do have a water softner in the house, would it make sense to add soft water every time I add water to the tub instead of using the tap water?

I would used the softened water then increase you calcium hardness in the if needed, that way you are not starting with calcium hardness that is too high and could cause issues.

[Mr. Miserable]

Thanks, I will do that, add in the soft water. I did look at the MPS and I have been putting only one tablespoon per week to shock the tub. Whould that cause me to itch?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Thanks, I will do that, add in the soft water. I did look at the MPS and I have been putting only one tablespoon per week to shock the tub. Whould that cause me to itch?

It could because you are not oxidizing the "wastes" and chloromines are building up. Do your test strips tell you free chlorine and total chlorine or just free chlorine? Are you or have you drained the tub to help get rid of the new tub "junk" from the water? I would start there, refill with softened water, raise calcium hardness to 100-150 if needed(don't know how softened your water is) and start over. (IMO)

[Mr. Miserable]

Thanks again so much....I will do all that and pay close attention to the shocking. My test strips just show free chlorine. I will look into getting a better strip. I'm sure that by doing all this, I will be fine. I'm just starting to feel better! That stuff is miserable! I will be doing this maint stuff this weekend. Thanks again!

[cplarsen]

Get a Taylor K-2006 test kit instead.

http://www.rhtubs.com/store/test-kits.htm

Way better than a test strip, and pretty easy to figure out.

[chem geek]

Unless there wasn't enough chlorine being used, and with a measurable FC residual it sounds like there was enough, then there shouldn't be chloramines around that would irritate. With a good test kit, such as the K-2006 mentioned, one can measure the Combined Chlorine (CC) to be sure (it should be close to zero). Those that use chlorine alone and don't even use MPS don't seem to build up anything in the water that irritates, but it's critical that enough chlorine be used. Some others that use MPS frequently are irritated from the MPS itself, but the MPS doesn't last long which is why I don't think that's the culprit here since it's only used once a week and the most recent irritation occurred nearly a week after adding MPS.

If MPS is used before a soak, then chloramines won't form as the MPS will oxidize the urea/ammonia from sweat rather than the chlorine more slowly doing so (at least for urea -- ammonia is pretty fast at forming monochloramine). I just don't think any of this problem is from chloramine nor MPS since it took several weeks to develop and it appears that enough chlorine is being used.

Of course, anything can be tried as an experiment to help determine the cause in this particular situation. You can certainly try using more MPS (which will probably let you use less chlorine, though you can measure it and see) and find out what happens.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Unless there wasn't enough chlorine being used, and with a measurable FC residual it sounds like there was enough, then there shouldn't be chloramines around that would irritate. With a good test kit, such as the K-2006 mentioned, one can measure the Combined Chlorine (CC) to be sure (it should be close to zero). Those that use chlorine alone and don't even use MPS don't seem to build up anything in the water that irritates, but it's critical that enough chlorine be used. Some others that use MPS frequently are irritated from the MPS itself, but the MPS doesn't last long which is why I don't think that's the culprit here since it's only used once a week and the most recent irritation occurred nearly a week after adding MPS.

If MPS is used before a soak, then chloramines won't form as the MPS will oxidize the urea/ammonia from sweat rather than the chlorine more slowly doing so (at least for urea -- ammonia is pretty fast at forming monochloramine). I just don't think any of this problem is from chloramine nor MPS since it took several weeks to develop and it appears that enough chlorine is being used.

Of course, anything can be tried as an experiment to help determine the cause in this particular situation. You can certainly try using more MPS (which will probably let you use less chlorine, though you can measure it and see) and find out what happens.

I ment to ask about combined chlorine, sorry about that...

[wireman]

Sounds like you need to raise your sanitizer levels. High is good.. Why not drain and refill. Couldn't hurt. If using dichlor i'd do it every 2 mos or so myself.

[Mr. Miserable]

Update! Drained 3/4 of the water over the weekend. Refilled. Did not add any chemicals. TA and PH are just a tad high, but far from off of the chart. I sat in it for 10 min by myself Monday night and my wife joined me for 10 min on Tues night. We both have a slight break out of the itchy rash, but not bad. I think it would be much worse had we stayed in longer. But, here is the interesting part. My nipples and scrotum are THE WORST! There is a noticeable redness to the nipples...no so much on the latter. Oh, it takes about 4 hours for the itching to start and about three days to go away. So, overall, not a bad break out with the pimple stuff, just the sensitive type of skin that seems to really be affected. Have you heard of this? Do you think I'm just having an allergic reaction? Should I switch to bromine? I would not have expected this because we were basically sitting in tap water! Help!

[cplarsen]

Here's the last itchy nipple thread, for what it's worth.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10272

[Mr. Miserable]

After reading that thread, I like my temp to be around 103. I'm wondering if it is a reaction to the water temp! I will drop it and see if that has any effect on the symptoms. What does the mineral stick do and does it work?