LaLa Land Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Hi Everyone, I'm new here and have been really enjoying this Water Chemistry Forum for the past Week or so since we got a new 2008 Hot Spring Spa. My question is why does everyone seem to have a different way of maintaining their water? I've seen other Hot Spring owners on this forum that use various methods yet rarely have I seen anyone here that is using the method I was told to use. Is it up to each dealer to tell what method they perfer or is it something the factory suggest? Here is what I was told to do for my 500 gallon spa. (It has an ozonator and a silver ion thing in the filter system... I believe they call it the Everfresh system) 2 tbsp MSP before entering spa 5 tbsp Chlorine (Dichlor) once a week or earlier with heavy use. Most people here seem to reverse this using the Dichlor after each use & the MSP once a week. I've checked the directions several times thinking I was doing it backwards but no I'm doing what they tell me to do. The water is still clear and sparkling without much odor or none at all. Does anyone else use this method? Is it possible to use chlorine (bleach) once more during the week instead of the MSP? Does MSP build up in the water so that its possible to have too much in the water? If so how does one know? Whew that's a lot of questions so I'll stop now before I drive you nuts. Anyway so nice to have a new hot tub again since the old one broke years ago and hubbie and I have been without... I'm in LaLa Land again and in love with our new HS Grandee. Hot Tub Mom LaLa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi Everyone, I'm new here and have been really enjoying this Water Chemistry Forum for the past Week or so since we got a new 2008 Hot Spring Spa. My question is why does everyone seem to have a different way of maintaining their water? I've seen other Hot Spring owners on this forum that use various methods yet rarely have I seen anyone here that is using the method I was told to use. Is it up to each dealer to tell what method they perfer or is it something the factory suggest? Here is what I was told to do for my 500 gallon spa. (It has an ozonator and a silver ion thing in the filter system... I believe they call it the Everfresh system) 2 tbsp MSP before entering spa 5 tbsp Chlorine (Dichlor) once a week or earlier with heavy use. Most people here seem to reverse this using the Dichlor after each use & the MSP once a week. I've checked the directions several times thinking I was doing it backwards but no I'm doing what they tell me to do. The water is still clear and sparkling without much odor or none at all. Does anyone else use this method? Is it possible to use chlorine (bleach) once more during the week instead of the MSP? Does MSP build up in the water so that its possible to have too much in the water? If so how does one know? Whew that's a lot of questions so I'll stop now before I drive you nuts. Anyway so nice to have a new hot tub again since the old one broke years ago and hubbie and I have been without... I'm in LaLa Land again and in love with our new HS Grandee. Hot Tub Mom LaLa This is actually the revised and new method of using a silver/zinc system. I believe what you have is basically a rebranded Nature2 mineral cartridge with an Ozonator. Ozone or not the proper procedure for the mineral cartridge is to use either MPS or dichlor before each use and to shock with chlorine (dichlor) weekly OR AS NEEDED (which is how this system got EPA registration since 'as needed' is often more than weekly!) The old method that many are still using was a low chlorine system with FC level below 1 ppm. This was found to not properly sanitize the water so the new method (as of 2006) was developed. What people don't realize is that if you calculate the FC levels in the new method they are the same as you would use if you were NOT using the mineral cartridge! If MPS is used before each soak then shocking with chlorine is going to be needed more than weekly if the tub gets moderate to heavy use! What most people fail to realize is that these systems are money makers for the dealers! Those mineral carts need to be replaced on a regular basis and they are not exactly cheap. (Yes, I sell them also but I do NOT recommend them.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaLa Land Posted March 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi Everyone, I'm new here and have been really enjoying this Water Chemistry Forum for the past Week or so since we got a new 2008 Hot Spring Spa. My question is why does everyone seem to have a different way of maintaining their water? I've seen other Hot Spring owners on this forum that use various methods yet rarely have I seen anyone here that is using the method I was told to use. Is it up to each dealer to tell what method they perfer or is it something the factory suggest? Here is what I was told to do for my 500 gallon spa. (It has an ozonator and a silver ion thing in the filter system... I believe they call it the Everfresh system) 2 tbsp MSP before entering spa 5 tbsp Chlorine (Dichlor) once a week or earlier with heavy use. Most people here seem to reverse this using the Dichlor after each use & the MSP once a week. I've checked the directions several times thinking I was doing it backwards but no I'm doing what they tell me to do. The water is still clear and sparkling without much odor or none at all. Does anyone else use this method? Is it possible to use chlorine (bleach) once more during the week instead of the MSP? Does MSP build up in the water so that its possible to have too much in the water? If so how does one know? Whew that's a lot of questions so I'll stop now before I drive you nuts. Anyway so nice to have a new hot tub again since the old one broke years ago and hubbie and I have been without... I'm in LaLa Land again and in love with our new HS Grandee. Hot Tub Mom LaLa This is actually the revised and new method of using a silver/zinc system. I believe what you have is basically a rebranded Nature2 mineral cartridge with an Ozonator. Ozone or not the proper procedure for the mineral cartridge is to use either MPS or dichlor before each use and to shock with chlorine (dichlor) weekly OR AS NEEDED (which is how this system got EPA registration since 'as needed' is often more than weekly!) The old method that many are still using was a low chlorine system with FC level below 1 ppm. This was found to not properly sanitize the water so the new method (as of 2006) was developed. What people don't realize is that if you calculate the FC levels in the new method they are the same as you would use if you were NOT using the mineral cartridge! If MPS is used before each soak then shocking with chlorine is going to be needed more than weekly if the tub gets moderate to heavy use! What most people fail to realize is that these systems are money makers for the dealers! Those mineral carts need to be replaced on a regular basis and they are not exactly cheap. (Yes, I sell them also but I do NOT recommend them.) ..................... What you are saying is what I was questioning, I've found the usage of weekly hard to follow (2 or 3 people daily) for 5 days. What if 2 people get in in the afternoon then two get in at night, is that 2 days or 1 day usage? Must I use MPS before each usage or is the one dose enough? What if 3 people stay in for several hours does that count for more than one usage or is it 3? I'm wondering why I need so much MPS since isn't it there to mostly help the CC buildup after using Chlorine (or am I wrong) and if so why am I doing it constantly after the Chlorine is gone (since I'm only using chlorine/dichlor once every 5 days, as you said it has been less than a full week for me) Plus isn't the ozonator also helping with the CC, so why the continuous MPS dosing? Also the high dose I use (5 tbsp dichlor weekly every 5 days for me so far), goes right back to a FC of 0 reading the very next day, so what good does this weekly high dichlor shock do is there isn't any chlorine left for the next 5 days? Is it just to make sure that something the ozone, silver thing, & the MPS won't kill gets taken care of weekly? How good is that if something can grow and spread for 5 days if me and the kids are using the spa daily? I agree with you that my usage of Dichlor will be the same as the old system that you referred to, especially when guest come over, or we begin using the spa more than once a day which we do. Still I wonder why such a high amount of MPS since the other method used doesn't require that much? Seems as though I'm going to be using as much Dichlor and a lot more MPS than the old method. Does the MPS disapear or just hang around, can you have too much in the water and what will that cause? Sorry to ask so many questions but its been a while since I've taken care of the Chemicals in a spa (4 years) and we have never used the Chlorine before (Baquil and later used the Bromine). I was pretty excited about using chlorine and so far the spa is great and the water is and seems fantastic. I just wonder if it could be simplier. Looking forward to more advice, and wrapping my brain around this puzzle. Spa Mom LaLa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi La La. Actually, your method is very common. You've just found a forum where most of us use dichlor. Most people that use a mineral cartridge dose with mps and shock with chlorine. Every dealer I encountered when spa shopping did exactly what you do. After a test soak, they'd throw in a cap of MPS and be on their way. We never had any problems, so it must work. I have a good friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and every one of her customers have switched to N2 (a mineral cartridge) and dose when soaking with MPS and shock with dichlor. She laughs at me for using dichlor when soaking and shocking with mps. I am an admitted germ freak and my fears often overcome my common sense. With your regime, the mps is to oxidize the organics that are introduced into your spa when soaking. You can definately adjust the mps based on how long you soak and the number of people that soak. Likewise, with heavier useage you can shock more often with dichlor if you'd like. MPS will stay in your water until it's needed. Unless you are sensitive to it, you shouldn't have to worry about using too much. With your system, you are using the mineral cartridge to kill pathogens, viruses and bacteria and your MPS to oxidize organics. Normally, there should be more organics (sweat, dead skin, etc.) introduced into your tub than bacteria. Mineral cartridges are relatively new and there are certainly old schoolers that don't trust them or don't like change. I haven't found any reports showing outbreaks of illness linked to anyone using a mineral cartridge and MPS. Since you are so happy with your new spa, I'd rely on your dealer to help you while your learning how to care for your water. Good luck and happy soaking. How did we ever survive without a spa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Mineral cartridges are relatively new and there are certainly old schoolers that don't trust them or don't like change. Mineral cartridges and ionizers are hardly new. They've been around for a long time. It's just how usedful they really are is what is questionable. The contact time needed for killing bacteria are very slow so they really aren't doing too much while you are soaking, which is why a residual sanitizer is needed. I sell them myself but I don't recommend them. However, dealers DO like them because they are a great profit booster for them! It is intersesting that when the first came out they were sold as a chlorine free or low chlorine sanitizing system. Now they are not! Hmmmm. As far as having no chlorine left after shocking with dichlor that is common with an ozonator. Ozone destroys chlorine and vice vera. IT is very difficult to keep a FC residual in a tub with ozone. Hence the mineral carts are often added as a secondary santizer. When used in this way they do provide some extra sanitation. (Then again, if you didn't have the ozonator and didn't have the mineral cart you could just use chlorine and it would be much easier to keep the levels correct!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaLa Land Posted March 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi La La. Actually, your method is very common. You've just found a forum where most of us use dichlor. Most people that use a mineral cartridge dose with mps and shock with chlorine. Every dealer I encountered when spa shopping did exactly what you do. After a test soak, they'd throw in a cap of MPS and be on their way. We never had any problems, so it must work. I have a good friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and every one of her customers have switched to N2 (a mineral cartridge) and dose when soaking with MPS and shock with dichlor. She laughs at me for using dichlor when soaking and shocking with mps. I am an admitted germ freak and my fears often overcome my common sense. With your regime, the mps is to oxidize the organics that are introduced into your spa when soaking. You can definately adjust the mps based on how long you soak and the number of people that soak. Likewise, with heavier useage you can shock more often with dichlor if you'd like. MPS will stay in your water until it's needed. Unless you are sensitive to it, you shouldn't have to worry about using too much. With your system, you are using the mineral cartridge to kill pathogens, viruses and bacteria and your MPS to oxidize organics. Normally, there should be more organics (sweat, dead skin, etc.) introduced into your tub than bacteria. Mineral cartridges are relatively new and there are certainly old schoolers that don't trust them or don't like change. I haven't found any reports showing outbreaks of illness linked to anyone using a mineral cartridge and MPS. Since you are so happy with your new spa, I'd rely on your dealer to help you while your learning how to care for your water. Good luck and happy soaking. How did we ever survive without a spa? Thanks so much for the information Tiny Bubbles you sure put my mind at ease. Last night (Tuesday) my hubbie and I jumped in for 30 minutes and I decided not to dose this time with the MPS. Having superdosed with the dichlor on Sunday (5 tbsps) then dosing again Monday with 2 tbsps MPS before we hopped in for 40 minutes or so. I figured that we could go without MPS last night. This morning the spas water is crystal clear even my husband remarked on how clear the water was. Tonight I'll be sure to shock it with 2 tbsps MPS just to be sure nothings in there before we get in. Another quick question, if you don't mind. The PH was reading high this morning, could not using the MPS have caused that increase or could the rain last night have anything to do with it? My dealer told me I shouldn't have a problem with high PH and only gave me PH increaser. I ran the jets a little bit and tested it again and the PH seems to have dropped back to the higher safty zone. Just wondering if its anything I did or didn't do that might have caused this PH spike. I'll test it again in a few hours. Thanks for taking the time to respond so quickly. Spa Mom LaLa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Not using MPS could have resulted in a rise in your ph. MPS is acidic but MPS for spas is buffered to keep it more ph neutral. Is your alkalinity in the correct range? Dealers usually know if you will need ph increaser or decreaser based on your local water supply. We all introduce different things into our spas when soaking and with the different products we use. I put bleach in my spa for awhile and had really high ph that I couldn't lower. When using dichlor and mps I can easily maintain my ph in the correct range. Rain should be acidic which would lower the ph in your spa. Did your dealer sell you MPS test strips? These can help you ensure the correct level of mps is in your spa while utilizing a mineral system. Since you shocked with dichlor Sunday you probably had a nice chlorine residual in your spa in addition to the mps you added Monday. If your fc level was still very high it could effect your ph reading. I have a similiar set up. I use a mineral cartridge, ozonator, dichlor and mps. Overkill? Maybe. I get all my supplies at cost which is nice. I was suprised to see that the markup on the N2 cartridge was only $6.00 after seeing it discussed that they were perhaps snake oil sold only to boost profits. FYI, I've gone up to 5 days after shocking with dichlor and still had a free chlorine residual while running my ozonator 24 hours a day. Happy soaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi La La. Actually, your method is very common. You've just found a forum where most of us use dichlor. Most people that use a mineral cartridge dose with mps and shock with chlorine. Every dealer I encountered when spa shopping did exactly what you do. After a test soak, they'd throw in a cap of MPS and be on their way. We never had any problems, so it must work. I have a good friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and every one of her customers have switched to N2 (a mineral cartridge) and dose when soaking with MPS and shock with dichlor. She laughs at me for using dichlor when soaking and shocking with mps. I am an admitted germ freak and my fears often overcome my common sense. With your regime, the mps is to oxidize the organics that are introduced into your spa when soaking. You can definately adjust the mps based on how long you soak and the number of people that soak. Likewise, with heavier useage you can shock more often with dichlor if you'd like. MPS will stay in your water until it's needed. Unless you are sensitive to it, you shouldn't have to worry about using too much. With your system, you are using the mineral cartridge to kill pathogens, viruses and bacteria and your MPS to oxidize organics. Normally, there should be more organics (sweat, dead skin, etc.) introduced into your tub than bacteria. Mineral cartridges are relatively new and there are certainly old schoolers that don't trust them or don't like change. I haven't found any reports showing outbreaks of illness linked to anyone using a mineral cartridge and MPS. Since you are so happy with your new spa, I'd rely on your dealer to help you while your learning how to care for your water. Good luck and happy soaking. How did we ever survive without a spa? Thanks so much for the information Tiny Bubbles you sure put my mind at ease. Last night (Tuesday) my hubbie and I jumped in for 30 minutes and I decided not to dose this time with the MPS. Having superdosed with the dichlor on Sunday (5 tbsps) then dosing again Monday with 2 tbsps MPS before we hopped in for 40 minutes or so. I figured that we could go without MPS last night. This morning the spas water is crystal clear even my husband remarked on how clear the water was. Tonight I'll be sure to shock it with 2 tbsps MPS just to be sure nothings in there before we get in. Another quick question, if you don't mind. The PH was reading high this morning, could not using the MPS have caused that increase or could the rain last night have anything to do with it? My dealer told me I shouldn't have a problem with high PH and only gave me PH increaser. I ran the jets a little bit and tested it again and the PH seems to have dropped back to the higher safty zone. Just wondering if its anything I did or didn't do that might have caused this PH spike. I'll test it again in a few hours. Thanks for taking the time to respond so quickly. Spa Mom LaLa There are many factors that could have caused the PH spike. Risidual soaps are also common for this, if it is already starting to come down, you should be fine. I have many customers that use Nature 2 (same thing as your mineral cart) and love it. They shock after each use with MPS and with chlorine weekly. it allows them to have a tub with as close to chlorine/bromine free as possible without the issues of Baqa. No one has been sick, itchy etc. The only issue we have seen is after heavy use or having friends over it may cloud up and an extra dose of di-chlor may be needed to help. As far as cost, this mineral cartridge has silver and copper in them (what sanitizes the water) and we know what the costs of those are. The dealer is probley not ripping you off. SOME of us do not mark up our products huge, we want to keep you coming in and maintaining your tub properly so you will come back and suggest us to others. Sounds like you are doing fine. Enjoy your tub, don't make it a hair raising chore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi La La. Actually, your method is very common. You've just found a forum where most of us use dichlor. Most people that use a mineral cartridge dose with mps and shock with chlorine. Every dealer I encountered when spa shopping did exactly what you do. After a test soak, they'd throw in a cap of MPS and be on their way. We never had any problems, so it must work. I have a good friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and every one of her customers have switched to N2 (a mineral cartridge) and dose when soaking with MPS and shock with dichlor. She laughs at me for using dichlor when soaking and shocking with mps. I am an admitted germ freak and my fears often overcome my common sense. With your regime, the mps is to oxidize the organics that are introduced into your spa when soaking. You can definately adjust the mps based on how long you soak and the number of people that soak. Likewise, with heavier useage you can shock more often with dichlor if you'd like. MPS will stay in your water until it's needed. Unless you are sensitive to it, you shouldn't have to worry about using too much. With your system, you are using the mineral cartridge to kill pathogens, viruses and bacteria and your MPS to oxidize organics. Normally, there should be more organics (sweat, dead skin, etc.) introduced into your tub than bacteria. Mineral cartridges are relatively new and there are certainly old schoolers that don't trust them or don't like change. I haven't found any reports showing outbreaks of illness linked to anyone using a mineral cartridge and MPS. Since you are so happy with your new spa, I'd rely on your dealer to help you while your learning how to care for your water. Good luck and happy soaking. How did we ever survive without a spa? Thanks so much for the information Tiny Bubbles you sure put my mind at ease. Last night (Tuesday) my hubbie and I jumped in for 30 minutes and I decided not to dose this time with the MPS. Having superdosed with the dichlor on Sunday (5 tbsps) then dosing again Monday with 2 tbsps MPS before we hopped in for 40 minutes or so. I figured that we could go without MPS last night. This morning the spas water is crystal clear even my husband remarked on how clear the water was. Tonight I'll be sure to shock it with 2 tbsps MPS just to be sure nothings in there before we get in. Another quick question, if you don't mind. The PH was reading high this morning, could not using the MPS have caused that increase or could the rain last night have anything to do with it? My dealer told me I shouldn't have a problem with high PH and only gave me PH increaser. I ran the jets a little bit and tested it again and the PH seems to have dropped back to the higher safty zone. Just wondering if its anything I did or didn't do that might have caused this PH spike. I'll test it again in a few hours. Thanks for taking the time to respond so quickly. Spa Mom LaLa There are many factors that could have caused the PH spike. Risidual soaps are also common for this, if it is already starting to come down, you should be fine. I have many customers that use Nature 2 (same thing as your mineral cart) and love it. They shock after each use with MPS and with chlorine weekly. it allows them to have a tub with as close to chlorine/bromine free as possible without the issues of Baqa. No one has been sick, itchy etc. The only issue we have seen is after heavy use or having friends over it may cloud up and an extra dose of di-chlor may be needed to help. As far as cost, this mineral cartridge has silver and copper in them (what sanitizes the water) and we know what the costs of those are. The dealer is probley not ripping you off. SOME of us do not mark up our products huge, we want to keep you coming in and maintaining your tub properly so you will come back and suggest us to others. Sounds like you are doing fine. Enjoy your tub, don't make it a hair raising chore! Hillbilly How much do you use in a 300 gallon tub of the MPS after you get out? how much of the Dichlor will you shock with once a week in the same tub? What do you do when you dump your tub and refill it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi La La. Actually, your method is very common. You've just found a forum where most of us use dichlor. Most people that use a mineral cartridge dose with mps and shock with chlorine. Every dealer I encountered when spa shopping did exactly what you do. After a test soak, they'd throw in a cap of MPS and be on their way. We never had any problems, so it must work. I have a good friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and every one of her customers have switched to N2 (a mineral cartridge) and dose when soaking with MPS and shock with dichlor. She laughs at me for using dichlor when soaking and shocking with mps. I am an admitted germ freak and my fears often overcome my common sense. With your regime, the mps is to oxidize the organics that are introduced into your spa when soaking. You can definately adjust the mps based on how long you soak and the number of people that soak. Likewise, with heavier useage you can shock more often with dichlor if you'd like. MPS will stay in your water until it's needed. Unless you are sensitive to it, you shouldn't have to worry about using too much. With your system, you are using the mineral cartridge to kill pathogens, viruses and bacteria and your MPS to oxidize organics. Normally, there should be more organics (sweat, dead skin, etc.) introduced into your tub than bacteria. Mineral cartridges are relatively new and there are certainly old schoolers that don't trust them or don't like change. I haven't found any reports showing outbreaks of illness linked to anyone using a mineral cartridge and MPS. Since you are so happy with your new spa, I'd rely on your dealer to help you while your learning how to care for your water. Good luck and happy soaking. How did we ever survive without a spa? Thanks so much for the information Tiny Bubbles you sure put my mind at ease. Last night (Tuesday) my hubbie and I jumped in for 30 minutes and I decided not to dose this time with the MPS. Having superdosed with the dichlor on Sunday (5 tbsps) then dosing again Monday with 2 tbsps MPS before we hopped in for 40 minutes or so. I figured that we could go without MPS last night. This morning the spas water is crystal clear even my husband remarked on how clear the water was. Tonight I'll be sure to shock it with 2 tbsps MPS just to be sure nothings in there before we get in. Another quick question, if you don't mind. The PH was reading high this morning, could not using the MPS have caused that increase or could the rain last night have anything to do with it? My dealer told me I shouldn't have a problem with high PH and only gave me PH increaser. I ran the jets a little bit and tested it again and the PH seems to have dropped back to the higher safty zone. Just wondering if its anything I did or didn't do that might have caused this PH spike. I'll test it again in a few hours. Thanks for taking the time to respond so quickly. Spa Mom LaLa There are many factors that could have caused the PH spike. Risidual soaps are also common for this, if it is already starting to come down, you should be fine. I have many customers that use Nature 2 (same thing as your mineral cart) and love it. They shock after each use with MPS and with chlorine weekly. it allows them to have a tub with as close to chlorine/bromine free as possible without the issues of Baqa. No one has been sick, itchy etc. The only issue we have seen is after heavy use or having friends over it may cloud up and an extra dose of di-chlor may be needed to help. As far as cost, this mineral cartridge has silver and copper in them (what sanitizes the water) and we know what the costs of those are. The dealer is probley not ripping you off. SOME of us do not mark up our products huge, we want to keep you coming in and maintaining your tub properly so you will come back and suggest us to others. Sounds like you are doing fine. Enjoy your tub, don't make it a hair raising chore! Hillbilly How much do you use in a 300 gallon tub of the MPS after you get out? how much of the Dichlor will you shock with once a week in the same tub? What do you do when you dump your tub and refill it?? When you dump your tub and refill, balance the water, install new cartridge and we use 1.5 tablespoons for 250 gallons, apx 3/4 of an ounce, so 1 3/4 tablespoons for a 300 gallon tub, just shy of an ounce. We use 2 tablespoons of MPS before or after each spa use per 250 gallons of water, so with 300 gallons I would use 2 1/2 of MPS. We only use dichlor in our tub if we notice anything "bad" such as cloudy, foam, irritation etc. When we do need it, we use the same as the start up amount, we only need it if the tub is used a lot or something has got into the water. I change water every 4 months, sometimes if there is heavy use I do it at 3 to 3 1/2 months. The water "lets me know" when itneeds to be changed. It feels "thick" and I start having problems with PH bounce and dullness. This is the same recipe that Nature 2 tells you to use, very simple and we have personally had no customers with any issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hillbilly How much do you use in a 300 gallon tub of the MPS after you get out? how much of the Dichlor will you shock with once a week in the same tub? What do you do when you dump your tub and refill it?? When you dump your tub and refill, balance the water, install new cartridge and we use 1.5 tablespoons for 250 gallons, apx 3/4 of an ounce, so 1 3/4 tablespoons for a 300 gallon tub, just shy of an ounce. Thank you Hillbilly. Is this MPS or Dichlor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaLa Land Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Hi Everyone, and thanks for all the info. Just thought I'd answer some questions and add a little more. My Alkaline level was good this morning it was just the PH was in the High zone. But I did check it later on in the day and it came down. Tonight we hoped in after I shocked with the MPS (2 tbsp) waited 10 minutes with the cleaner button pushed and the water was great no smell no problems at all. Afterward I decided to check the water again and the chlorine (FC) reading actually showed an improvement it was at the .05 reading. Does the MSP do this to the FC reading? Tomorrow I'm sure it will read 0 again. Oh by the way the Alk was good as was the PH everything normal. Also it was so nice that I decided to get back in 2 hours later, no MPS, just popped in. I notice now that my nose seems to have a slight burning sensation when I breath in . Is that due to not running it for 10 minutes or airing it out a bit before popping it. Other than that my skin feels great and all is good. How can it not be I HAVE A NEW SPA!!! I'm so happy. I know I'm testing to much, but I find this fun and just can't seem to stop myself. I love it... I get out and can't smell anything on my skin. I don't know how I lived with that broken spa for 4 years without one, oh wait I didn't, my husband told me I turned into a nag about it. HA, well he sure made it up to me.. gotta go kiss him now. SPA Mom LA LA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Sorry 104, You start up with the dichlor, You use MPS befor or after tub use. A lot of people use before if they are using Cense, a MPS with scent. Some people are sensitive to MPS so use it after. You can add it befor and after, specially if there is more people using the spa, or long soaks. The only other time people use di-chlor with this system is if the spa seems "off'. Hazy, cloudy, smell, feels weird. You are relying on the mineral stick to sanitize the spa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 if the spa seems "off'. Hazy, cloudy, smell, feels weird. You are relying on the mineral stick to sanitize the spa. Is this the Yellow Stick you put in the Filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Not using MPS could have resulted in a rise in your ph. MPS is acidic but MPS for spas is buffered to keep it more ph neutral. You are making an unfounded assumption that does not hold true for all brands of MPS! Is your alkalinity in the correct range? Dealers usually know if you will need ph increaser or decreaser based on your local water supply. There are a lot more factors than this.....the simplest way to know if you need to raise or lower your pH is by testing it. If the pH is high you want to add acid. If it is low you want to check the TA first. If the TA is good then you want to aerate (turn on your jets and bubblers) to drive of CO2, which will cause the pH to rise. IF the TA is low then you can use pH increaser which raises both pH and TA. We all introduce different things into our spas when soaking and with the different products we use. I put bleach in my spa for awhile and had really high ph that I couldn't lower. When using dichlor and mps I can easily maintain my ph in the correct range. That is because both Dichlor and MPS are acidic. I suspect that your TA was too high and you never lowered it. Rain should be acidic which would lower the ph in your spa. Yet rain can aerate the water and this can cause pH to rise! Once again incomplete facts and only half the story! Did your dealer sell you MPS test strips? The MPS test strips are identical to the total chlorine test strips...they measure total oxidizer in the water. These can help you ensure the correct level of mps is in your spa while utilizing a mineral system. Since you shocked with dichlor Sunday you probably had a nice chlorine residual in your spa in addition to the mps you added Monday. If your fc level was still very high it could effect your ph reading. I have a similiar set up. I use a mineral cartridge, ozonator, dichlor and mps. Overkill? Maybe. I get all my supplies at cost which is nice. I was suprised to see that the markup on the N2 cartridge was only $6.00 after seeing it discussed that they were perhaps snake oil sold only to boost profits. I sell the N2 carts where I work and believe me, if your dealer has only a $6 markup on them he is either selling them at a very low price or paying way too much for them!!!!!! FYI, I've gone up to 5 days after shocking with dichlor and still had a free chlorine residual while running my ozonator 24 hours a day. Happy soaking. HOW high is your CYA right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Another quick question, if you don't mind. The PH was reading high this morning, could not using the MPS have caused that increase or could the rain last night have anything to do with it? Yes, rain can either raise or lower pH...let me explain. Rain is usually acidic so it can lower ph BUT if the rain is falling hard it will aerate the water. This aeration will cause carbon dioxide to outgas and the pH will rise. Why? Carbon dioxide dissovoled in water is carbonic acid (key word here is acid). Carbonic acid is sometimes called club soda when we drink it. If you aerate the water (shake up the bottle of club soda) you drive off the carbon dioxide gas (make the club soda go flat) and the amount of acid is then lowered. The pH then rises. We can use this info to our advantage with a spa if the pH is too low but the TA is in the right place. We can just turn on the jets and bubblers and drive off some of the CO2 and the pH will rise. We can also use this to our advantage when we need to lower the TA. High TA is very common with some fill water and it can make your pH want to rise too high all the time. To lower the TA you add enough acid to drop the pH to 7..0 and then turn on the jets and bubblers and test pH until it rises to 7.6, usually in a few hours. Test the TA again and if still too high repeat the process until the TA is where you want it. Sometimes it takes doing this a few times before you even see the TA drop. There is a faster way to do this but it is a bit more complicated so I don't recommend it for beginners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaLa Land Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Not using MPS could have resulted in a rise in your ph. MPS is acidic but MPS for spas is buffered to keep it more ph neutral. You are making an unfounded assumption that does not hold true for all brands of MPS! Is your alkalinity in the correct range? Dealers usually know if you will need ph increaser or decreaser based on your local water supply. There are a lot more factors than this.....the simplest way to know if you need to raise or lower your pH is by testing it. If the pH is high you want to add acid. If it is low you want to check the TA first. If the TA is good then you want to aerate (turn on your jets and bubblers) to drive of CO2, which will cause the pH to rise. IF the TA is low then you can use pH increaser which raises both pH and TA. We all introduce different things into our spas when soaking and with the different products we use. I put bleach in my spa for awhile and had really high ph that I couldn't lower. When using dichlor and mps I can easily maintain my ph in the correct range. That is because both Dichlor and MPS are acidic. I suspect that your TA was too high and you never lowered it. Rain should be acidic which would lower the ph in your spa. Yet rain can aerate the water and this can cause pH to rise! Once again incomplete facts and only half the story! Did your dealer sell you MPS test strips? The MPS test strips are identical to the total chlorine test strips...they measure total oxidizer in the water. These can help you ensure the correct level of mps is in your spa while utilizing a mineral system. Since you shocked with dichlor Sunday you probably had a nice chlorine residual in your spa in addition to the mps you added Monday. If your fc level was still very high it could effect your ph reading. I have a similiar set up. I use a mineral cartridge, ozonator, dichlor and mps. Overkill? Maybe. I get all my supplies at cost which is nice. I was suprised to see that the markup on the N2 cartridge was only $6.00 after seeing it discussed that they were perhaps snake oil sold only to boost profits. I sell the N2 carts where I work and believe me, if your dealer has only a $6 markup on them he is either selling them at a very low price or paying way too much for them!!!!!! FYI, I've gone up to 5 days after shocking with dichlor and still had a free chlorine residual while running my ozonator 24 hours a day. Happy soaking. HOW high is your CYA right now? Hi Waterbear Just tested it for you using the aquachek yellow strips PH - between 72 - 78 FC - 0 Alk - closer to the 120 than the 80 CYA- 30-50 I don't have a strip for measuring the MPS even though after just reading the small print that came with the Freshwater continuous silver ion sanitizer I found out I should be testing for it. So I just order two boxes of them, since I'm really into testing and having fun with it. I do have a question that has been bugging me, if I keep adding the 5 tbsp of Dichlor every 5 days or weekly how long will it be before the CYA is at the high level? (Note: I messed up and thought after reading the strips and seeing the ideal range for the FC ppm should be for a in the 3-5 zone. Mine being at zero I keeping dumping in more Dichlor I did this for 2 days before I called the dealer and asked him about it. So I ended up adding 10 tbsp that I didn't need.) Is it possible to substitute bleach as I've read some people are doing for the Dichlor or will that interfere with the silver ion thing? Or can I alternate Dichlor then bleach so my ph doesn't get whacked or does that happen? Is it possible to get the CYA so high that my pool isn't sanitized? Will I have to change the water sooner than 4 months if it does hit that high cya mark? Sorry for all the questions but I'd like to keep the water in as long as possible before having to change it, my husband does the spa cleaning and if we have to change it every 2 or 3 months he might not be too happy. Thanks for all the help. Spa Mom La La Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 if the spa seems "off'. Hazy, cloudy, smell, feels weird. You are relying on the mineral stick to sanitize the spa. Is this the Yellow Stick you put in the Filter? Yes Roger, that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Not using MPS could have resulted in a rise in your ph. MPS is acidic but MPS for spas is buffered to keep it more ph neutral. You are making an unfounded assumption that does not hold true for all brands of MPS! Is your alkalinity in the correct range? Dealers usually know if you will need ph increaser or decreaser based on your local water supply. There are a lot more factors than this.....the simplest way to know if you need to raise or lower your pH is by testing it. If the pH is high you want to add acid. If it is low you want to check the TA first. If the TA is good then you want to aerate (turn on your jets and bubblers) to drive of CO2, which will cause the pH to rise. IF the TA is low then you can use pH increaser which raises both pH and TA. We all introduce different things into our spas when soaking and with the different products we use. I put bleach in my spa for awhile and had really high ph that I couldn't lower. When using dichlor and mps I can easily maintain my ph in the correct range. That is because both Dichlor and MPS are acidic. I suspect that your TA was too high and you never lowered it. Rain should be acidic which would lower the ph in your spa. Yet rain can aerate the water and this can cause pH to rise! Once again incomplete facts and only half the story! Did your dealer sell you MPS test strips? The MPS test strips are identical to the total chlorine test strips...they measure total oxidizer in the water. These can help you ensure the correct level of mps is in your spa while utilizing a mineral system. Since you shocked with dichlor Sunday you probably had a nice chlorine residual in your spa in addition to the mps you added Monday. If your fc level was still very high it could effect your ph reading. I have a similiar set up. I use a mineral cartridge, ozonator, dichlor and mps. Overkill? Maybe. I get all my supplies at cost which is nice. I was suprised to see that the markup on the N2 cartridge was only $6.00 after seeing it discussed that they were perhaps snake oil sold only to boost profits. I sell the N2 carts where I work and believe me, if your dealer has only a $6 markup on them he is either selling them at a very low price or paying way too much for them!!!!!! FYI, I've gone up to 5 days after shocking with dichlor and still had a free chlorine residual while running my ozonator 24 hours a day. Happy soaking. HOW high is your CYA right now? Hi Waterbear Just tested it for you using the aquachek yellow strips PH - between 72 - 78 FC - 0 Alk - closer to the 120 than the 80 CYA- 30-50 I don't have a strip for measuring the MPS even though after just reading the small print that came with the Freshwater continuous silver ion sanitizer I found out I should be testing for it. So I just order two boxes of them, since I'm really into testing and having fun with it. I do have a question that has been bugging me, if I keep adding the 5 tbsp of Dichlor every 5 days or weekly how long will it be before the CYA is at the high level? (Note: I messed up and thought after reading the strips and seeing the ideal range for the FC ppm should be for a in the 3-5 zone. Mine being at zero I keeping dumping in more Dichlor I did this for 2 days before I called the dealer and asked him about it. So I ended up adding 10 tbsp that I didn't need.) Is it possible to substitute bleach as I've read some people are doing for the Dichlor or will that interfere with the silver ion thing? Or can I alternate Dichlor then bleach so my ph doesn't get whacked or does that happen? Is it possible to get the CYA so high that my pool isn't sanitized? Will I have to change the water sooner than 4 months if it does hit that high cya mark? Sorry for all the questions but I'd like to keep the water in as long as possible before having to change it, my husband does the spa cleaning and if we have to change it every 2 or 3 months he might not be too happy. Thanks for all the help. Spa Mom La La It's a good idea to remove your mineral cartridge when shocking with chlorine. The beads are made to dissolve slowly and the high levels of chlorine can make the process speed up and the beads will clump together prematurely. How often you change your water depends on your useage. When you get used to things you'll know instinctively when it's time. For lack of a better word, your water will seem thick. We use ours 9 times a week for an hour at a time, so we drain at the 2-3 month mark, closer to 2 months. If you are only shocking with dichlor you aren't adding nearly as much as those of us who use it daily. We don't have any problems with it, so you shouldn't either. If you use bleach you definately need to watch your ph, mine shot through the roof. Shocking with bleach is a much better alternative to dosing with it daily and using it as your primary sanitizer which I've found is a big no no. I prefer not to use it in my spa period. If you want to go that route, you might want to use a liquid chlorine product from a pool store for shocking. Bleach strength can vary based on manufacturer and type. Water changes aren't so bad, except when it's really cold. It sounds like you have a helpful dealer which is great. Happy soaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaLa Land Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 It's a good idea to remove your mineral cartridge when shocking with chlorine. The beads are made to dissolve slowly and the high levels of chlorine can make the process speed up and the beads will clump together prematurely. How often you change your water depends on your useage. When you get used to things you'll know instinctively when it's time. For lack of a better word, your water will seem thick. We use ours 9 times a week for an hour at a time, so we drain at the 2-3 month mark, closer to 2 months. If you are only shocking with dichlor you aren't adding nearly as much as those of us who use it daily. We don't have any problems with it, so you shouldn't either. If you use bleach you definately need to watch your ph, mine shot through the roof. Shocking with bleach is a much better alternative to dosing with it daily and using it as your primary sanitizer which I've found is a big no no. I prefer not to use it in my spa period. If you want to go that route, you might want to use a liquid chlorine product from a pool store for shocking. Bleach strength can vary based on manufacturer and type. Water changes aren't so bad, except when it's really cold. It sounds like you have a helpful dealer which is great. Happy soaking. Yes I really like my dealer he is alway chearful and happy to help me, I just don't want to be a pest with my millions of silly questions. I don't plan on changing my maintainance program, I haven't even gone a full month yet. I do want to see how long I will be able to go using this program until the next change. You change closer to 2 months, does that mean you also have to change the mineral thing too, or do you just put it back in. Mine says it should be changed every 4 months but perhaps that figure is based on the expectation that you will only have to change the water every 4 months. Do they get used up with more spa usage or do they just run out after 4 months use. Have you noticed whether your CYA level is high when your water begins to turn "thick" as you called it, or is this not a factor? 9 times a week for a hour each time, is that one person or 2 or does that matter. If my husband and I jump in for 30 minutes, would that count as 1 person hr or is it 2? If it's one person I could be adding my weekly shock with dichlor to soon. Anyway I find this forum so facinating. Sure wish I knew about it years ago when I was having problems with the bromine tablets we used in our old spa. SPA MOM La La Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Hi Waterbear Just tested it for you using the aquachek yellow strips PH - between 72 - 78 There is a big difference in Chlorine's sanitizing ability at pH of 7.2 and pH of 7.8. The strips are not really giving you valuable info here! FC - 0 No residual FC means the water is not sanitized. Alk - closer to the 120 than the 80 Once again the strips are not really giving your valuable info since you need a better precision than 40 ppm for adjusting TA properly! CYA- 30-50 30 is about as high as a spa should go, 50 is getting too high....once again the strips are not really giving you valuable info. I don't have a strip for measuring the MPS even though after just reading the small print that came with the Freshwater continuous silver ion sanitizer I found out I should be testing for it. So I just order two boxes of them, since I'm really into testing and having fun with it. These strips are actually only testing MPS if there is NO chlorine present. Otherwise they are testing the total of the MPS and the combined chlorine. There is a more accurate way to determine MPS, FC, and CC. I would suggest getting a good test kit that will give you useful information about your water. For chlorine I would recommend a Taylor K-2006 (not the K-2005). This test kit will test your FC and CC up to about 50 ppm with an accuracy as great as .2 ppm, has pH with acid and base demand tests, TA, CH and CYA. If you think it's expensive (It costs around $80) then consider how much your spa cost. It will really make balancing your water much easier and once you start using it you will see how unprecise the strips really are. Taylor also has a special regent (K-2041, sold separately) to remove the interference MPS causes to the CC test and to give you an accurate level of FC, CC, AND MPS in your water. I do have a question that has been bugging me, if I keep adding the 5 tbsp of Dichlor every 5 days or weekly how long will it be before the CYA is at the high level? ACtually, only a few weeks to a month! (Note: I messed up and thought after reading the strips and seeing the ideal range for the FC ppm should be for a in the 3-5 zone. Mine being at zero I keeping dumping in more Dichlor I did this for 2 days before I called the dealer and asked him about it. So I ended up adding 10 tbsp that I didn't need.) If you have an ozonator it will be very difficult to keep a FC residual since ozone destroys chlorine. Is it possible to substitute bleach as I've read some people are doing for the Dichlor or will that interfere with the silver ion thing? Or can I alternate Dichlor then bleach so my ph doesn't get whacked or does that happen? No, once in the water chlorine is chlorine...or hypochlorous acid and hypochorite ions, I shlould say. The chlorine source is not important except that the stabilized chlorines such as dichlor will continue to add CYA to the water while the unstablized chlorines won't. Also when you use a stabilized chlorine your pH will be more stable if you run you total alkalinity on the high side (100-120 ppm) while if you use bleach or one of the other unstabilized chlorines you will have better pH stability if you run your TA low (60-80 ppm). Is it possible to get the CYA so high that my pool isn't sanitized? It is possible, at least the sanitation would be compromised. This is why and how 'hot tub itch' (Pseudomonas) usually breaks out. Will I have to change the water sooner than 4 months if it does hit that high cya mark? Either that or run higher FC levels (using an ustabilized chlorine source) to compensate. Sorry for all the questions but I'd like to keep the water in as long as possible before having to change it, my husband does the spa cleaning and if we have to change it every 2 or 3 months he might not be too happy. Actually, every 3 to 4 months is customary for water changes and if the spa gets heavy use you might need to change it more often. Thanks for all the help. Spa Mom La La Hope this is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Yes I really like my dealer he is alway chearful and happy to help me, I just don't want to be a pest with my millions of silly questions. I don't plan on changing my maintainance program, I haven't even gone a full month yet. I do want to see how long I will be able to go using this program until the next change. You change closer to 2 months, does that mean you also have to change the mineral thing too, or do you just put it back in. Mine says it should be changed every 4 months but perhaps that figure is based on the expectation that you will only have to change the water every 4 months. Do they get used up with more spa usage or do they just run out after 4 months use. Have you noticed whether your CYA level is high when your water begins to turn "thick" as you called it, or is this not a factor? 9 times a week for a hour each time, is that one person or 2 or does that matter. If my husband and I jump in for 30 minutes, would that count as 1 person hr or is it 2? If it's one person I could be adding my weekly shock with dichlor to soon. Anyway I find this forum so facinating. Sure wish I knew about it years ago when I was having problems with the bromine tablets we used in our old spa. SPA MOM La La Hi La La. Yes, my cya levelsdo increase until I do a drain and refill. It's not thick from cya, it's the total dissolved solids built up from adding sanitizer, shock, ph/alkalinity adjustments, sweat, dead skin, etc. Before this last water change I used bleach for awhile which has alot of salt in it and adds rapidly to the tds. I like to use fragrances as well, which also adds to the tds. Top all that off with having friends in the spa who come in with lotions, etc. on their skin. I have been keeping my mineral cartridge for 4 months per the instructions. Your question about bather loads affecting the N2 cartridge is something I've been wondering about as well. I assume it doesn't, since they don't mention this, but I plan on talking to zodiac reps. about it. As far as how often to drain, there are different schools of thought. Some people test for TDS and drain when it reaches 1500. There is a formula where you divide the total gallons of water in your spa by 3. Then divide that number by the average # of bathers per day. For me, this comes out to about 60 days. I couldn't agree with you more about how fascinating this is. The one downside is that with everything I've learned, I'll never get in a public hot tub again. So much for soaking after a long day on the slopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 One thing about TDS...It's not the AMOUNT of total dissolved solids that are a problem but the TYPE of things dissolved that are a problem. For example, you mentioned salt. Sodium and chloride ions are not a problem even at fairly high levels (if they were then salt water chlorine generators and bromine generators would not work!) yet if the dissolved solids include a lot of calcium, sulfates (from using MPS and pH decreaser) and/or cynurates (CYA and it's compuunds) THEN you might have water problems. TDS is, at best, a rough guide to overstabilization from usuintg stabilizec chlorine. If you look at the problems that are attributed to high TDS EVERY ONE OF THEM is caused by overstabilization. However, if you look at a salt system, which will have very high TDS to start with, it has NONE of the problems associated with high TDS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 One thing about TDS...It's not the AMOUNT of total dissolved solids that are a problem but the TYPE of things dissolved that are a problem. For example, you mentioned salt. Sodium and chloride ions are not a problem even at fairly high levels (if they were then salt water chlorine generators and bromine generators would not work!) yet if the dissolved solids include a lot of calcium, sulfates (from using MPS and pH decreaser) and/or cynurates (CYA and it's compuunds) THEN you might have water problems. TDS is, at best, a rough guide to overstabilization from usuintg stabilizec chlorine. If you look at the problems that are attributed to high TDS EVERY ONE OF THEM is caused by overstabilization. However, if you look at a salt system, which will have very high TDS to start with, it has NONE of the problems associated with high TDS! I think you've just answered a question I had in another post regarding TDS. Cynurates from CYA and sulfates from MPS add to the problematic type of TDS. Any idea of how many ppm TDS from these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 One thing about TDS...It's not the AMOUNT of total dissolved solids that are a problem but the TYPE of things dissolved that are a problem. For example, you mentioned salt. Sodium and chloride ions are not a problem even at fairly high levels (if they were then salt water chlorine generators and bromine generators would not work!) yet if the dissolved solids include a lot of calcium, sulfates (from using MPS and pH decreaser) and/or cynurates (CYA and it's compuunds) THEN you might have water problems. TDS is, at best, a rough guide to overstabilization from usuintg stabilizec chlorine. If you look at the problems that are attributed to high TDS EVERY ONE OF THEM is caused by overstabilization. However, if you look at a salt system, which will have very high TDS to start with, it has NONE of the problems associated with high TDS! I think you've just answered a question I had in another post regarding TDS. Cynurates from CYA and sulfates from MPS add to the problematic type of TDS. Any idea of how many ppm TDS from these? I think this will answer alot of your questions. http://www.rhtubs.com/TDS.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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