Water Care For Dummies

[ivieisme]

I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible. I have a new Caldera Niagra. Ozonator on 24 hours, and a spa frog. My dealer, who has been selling and maintaining spas for 18 years, suggests a completely different regimen than everyone here. He says use a cap of MPS after each soak and 1/2 cap of dichlor 1x per week. PERIOD.

From reading this Forum, I have tried to combine a few methods. I am basically rotating oxidizer and dichlor after each soak. My water has been clear after about 5 weeks. The problem is.....NOTHING ever registers on 3 different types of test strips. I have added alkalinity increaser like crazy, and still, it is below low. (PH and ALK) My total chlorine, and free chlorine never register either. But I smell it!

I soak 2-3x a week alone. and my kids come in about 1x a week (one is in a swim diaper, one is 10). Do I just keep adding alkalinity increaser? I have used half the bottle already.

My water is clear. At 40 years old, I know myself. I will not keep up a routine that is difficult, and for some reason, I really am not comfortable with the bleach thing.

I am using Brilliance Oxidizer and chlorinating granules. My local pool store (not my dealer) sold me "Perfect PH", and said that would bring my levels to the right place and keep them there, but I thought I read not to use it somewhere.

[Chris W]

It sounds like you're using test strips. I'd start by getting a drop based test kit and figure out where your water is really at. Taylor is a leader among kits and they recently made a deal with Arch who supplies Wal-mart with test kits. The 5-way test kit at Wal-mart is a Taylor kit with OTO chlorine test and it's a good place to start. Once you have some good reliable numbers to work with, we can help you get going. If things are very messed up, test your tap water too. If it's not the problem, a drain and re-fill may be in order to get things under control.

Chris W

[ivieisme]

I'll try to find one today. I don't think draining would help. The water never registered alk or ph on any strips, and I have been very cautious about raising it, adding a little at a time. But the other day, I added A LOT of alk increase, and still no results. I will post my water results after I get the kit. I must say, my water looks great though.

Thanks.

[poolyeti]

I would go with a DPD chlorine test instead of the OTO. It's more accurate and easier to read.

Also I would stop using Dichlor immediately. It is adding cyanuric acid to your spa, which is why you can smell the chlorine. you don't have enough free chlorine to eliminate the combined chlorine because all the free chlorine is gummed up with CYA.

[chem geek]

Your dealer's recommendation of using MPS after each soak and Dichlor weekly is not sanitary. MPS is non-chlorine shock and does not kill pathogens. It only oxidizes organics, which technically is something that your ozonator should be doing anyway. The ozonator does kill pathogens, but only free-floating ones that circulate through the ozonator and that does not happen quickly (it takes multiple turnovers of water for most of it to get exposed to ozone) so does not prevent disease transmission (via fecal-to-oral route) from one person to another and the ozonator does nothing at all to pathogens stuck in biofilms on spa surfaces. Only a residual sanitizer such as chlorine, bromine or Biguanide/Baqua/PHMB will kill pathogens in the bulk pool water and surfaces outside of the ozonator and is why the EPA REQUIRES the use of one of those three sanitizers for ANY product that claims sanitation, including "alternative" sanitation products (such as metal ions -- copper or silver which kill too slowly to stop person-to-person transmission; or ozone; or enzymes).

Clear water is not sanitary water. Nevertheless, the risk of illness is low, but using an approved EPA sanitizer in the approved way which is to always have a minimum residual in the water makes the risk near zero. Take a look at this post for an example of a serious disease because the water did not have any residual sanitizer and was treated more like a bathtub.

If you don't like bleach, then consider using Lithium Hypochlorite which is powder/granules instead -- it's more expensive, but like bleach it does not add to CYA and it won't splash. One person said it was slow to dissolve, but it is supposed to be fast to dissolve and in any event could be dissolved in a bucket of spa water and added that way if necessary. So the regimen would be to use Dichlor after each use for the first couple of weeks after a fresh drain/refill and then switch to Lithium Hypochlorite after each use. You may not need to use MPS at all as the ozonator should be oxidizing organics and the higher disinfecting chlorine level should take care of combined chlorine so there should be minimal chlorine smell especially if you take off the cover 5-10 minutes before getting in the tub.

As for Robarb Perfect pH, this is just a phosphate buffer. The downside with phosphates is that they can promote algae, but this is not usually a problem in hot tubs due to the hotter water and keeping it covered so no sunlight gets in. Nevertheless, if you want the pH to be more stable, you can use a pH buffer that is also an algaecide, namely 20 Mule Team Borax, and you can also lower your Total Alkalinity (TA) level since the main source of pH rise is the outgassing of carbon dioxide (partly from the jets and partly from the ozonator air bubbles). To get to 50 ppm Borates in 350 gallons, it takes 2.5 cups of 20 Mule Team Borax and 10 fluid ounces of Muriatic Acid (31.45% HCl) or 9 ounces volume of dry acid and I'd add half these amounts alternately so as not to swing the pH too much (add half the Borax first, then half the acid, then the rest of the Borax, then the rest of the acid). I'd lower the TA before adding the Borax as you can use less acid to lower the pH for the TA lowering procedure here.

The Brilliance Oxidizer appears to be a combination of non-chlorine shock with some mineral salts, but I couldn't find an MSDS for this to be sure of the specific ingredients.

Richard

[Nightop]

The Brilliance Oxidizer appears to be a combination of non-chlorine shock with some mineral salts, but I couldn't find an MSDS for this to be sure of the specific ingredients.

Richard

This question was very similar to the question that I asked in Dichlor for Dummies Redux. When asking that question I too tried to find the MSDS and finally had to contact a friend who deals with this on a daily basis, so the links below will take you to two pages of the MSDS I put up on my website. If you need other pages of the 9 let me know what to look for. As for my question, I have and N2 cartridge, and Ozonator in a 350 gal tub. I put in 56% Clorine 1x a week and 1/2 oz of the Brill Oxidizer per person with each use. My wife has a reaction to Clorox. I have trouble keeping my PH up. My TA remains stable. I know I need to get a better test kit and am only using the strips at this point. At the end of a week the clorine barely registers on the strip. From other threads it seem like I should be adding clorine more often. Is this the case?

http://www.nightop.com/images/MSDS1.jpg

http://www.nightop.com/images/MSDS2.jpg

[TinyBubbles]

I believe that spafrog is the same as Natures2, just a different brand. Once activated with dichlor, you maintain it with a capful of MPS after soaks and it is a registered/accepted hot tub sanitizer with the EPA. I use a N2 as a backup with chlorine as my main sanitizer, but I could give you a list a mile long (ok, slight exaggeration) of people that use a mineral cartridge, MPS daily and shock weekly with dichlor. I have a friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and that's the program she has all her customers on. She doesn't understand why I won't do it, but I am sooooooooooooooo freaked out by germs that I can't bring myself to do it. But logically, I know it must work or people wouldn't use it and be happy with it.

[chem geek]

This question was very similar to the question that I asked in Dichlor for Dummies Redux. When asking that question I too tried to find the MSDS and finally had to contact a friend who deals with this on a daily basis, so the links below will take you to two pages of the MSDS I put up on my website. If you need other pages of the 9 let me know what to look for. As for my question, I have and N2 cartridge, and Ozonator in a 350 gal tub. I put in 56% Clorine 1x a week and 1/2 oz of the Brill Oxidizer per person with each use. My wife has a reaction to Clorox. I have trouble keeping my PH up. My TA remains stable. I know I need to get a better test kit and am only using the strips at this point. At the end of a week the clorine barely registers on the strip. From other threads it seem like I should be adding clorine more often. Is this the case?

http://www.nightop.com/images/MSDS1.jpg

http://www.nightop.com/images/MSDS2.jpg

Thanks for the links. Brilliance Oxidizer is just standard non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate). The other chemicals are the normal ones found in its manufacture (potassium sulfate, potassium bisulfate) since the original Oxone from Dupont is a three salt combination K₂SO₄•KHSO₄•2KHSO₅ (that is, potassium sulfate, potassium bisulfate, and two potassium monopersulfate aka peroxymonosulfate). The Magnesium Carbonate is mostly to make this product less acidic. So the claim about it adding mineral salts to the water is only true in the sense of adding sulfates that non-chlorine shock does anyway.

[chem geek]

I believe that spafrog is the same as Natures2, just a different brand. Once activated with dichlor, you maintain it with a capful of MPS after soaks and it is a registered/accepted hot tub sanitizer with the EPA. I use a N2 as a backup with chlorine as my main sanitizer, but I could give you a list a mile long (ok, slight exaggeration) of people that use a mineral cartridge, MPS daily and shock weekly with dichlor. I have a friend that owns a pool/spa supply store and that's the program she has all her customers on. She doesn't understand why I won't do it, but I am sooooooooooooooo freaked out by germs that I can't bring myself to do it. But logically, I know it must work or people wouldn't use it and be happy with it.

I've put a response to this in a separate thread here so as not to hijack this one. Sorry I did that initially.

Richard

[Chris W]

I would go with a DPD chlorine test instead of the OTO. It's more accurate and easier to read. .....

I like the DPD test as well, but you have to be aware that very high chlorine levels will bleach out the color of the reagent and give a false reading of low chlorine. In a hot tub it is relatively easy to overdo the chlorine compared to a pool. OTO turns from Yellow to Orange at very high chlorine levels. My favorite chlorine test is FAS-DPD, as it doesn't reqiuire the color matching tube, but most pool stores don't carry it.

[MaRiSpaTech]

Ivieisme

It looks like your chem. questions have been answered, but I just wanted to add one thing. I noticed that you wrote one of your children enter the spa in a swim diaper. In case you dealer never mentioned this, please be careful with young kids in hot water. Their core body temperature can change quickly, which can cause hypothermia. Children under 5 should not be in for longer then 10-15min with 99-100 degree water, and even less time with hotter water.

[dilauro]

I have a question in terms of which Chlorine I can use.

I have a Masterspa Envision Hot Tub.

Currently, I am using the Sanitizer Chlorine that contain: 99% Sodium Dichloro 1% Triazintetrione

Can I use the Chlorine tablets that contain: 99% Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione.

[poolyeti]

I would go with a DPD chlorine test instead of the OTO. It's more accurate and easier to read. .....

My favorite chlorine test is FAS-DPD, as it doesn't reqiuire the color matching tube, but most pool stores don't carry it.

Sorry, I meant FAS-DPD. That's all we use at the place I work. Anyone interested in getting a test kit like this can get info here

[Chris W]

I have a question in terms of which Chlorine I can use.

I have a Masterspa Envision Hot Tub.

Currently, I am using the Sanitizer Chlorine that contain: 99% Sodium Dichloro 1% Triazintetrione

Can I use the Chlorine tablets that contain: 99% Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione.

The general feeling is that tri-chlor tablets are not appropriate for spas. They are very acidic and I suspect they would dissolve more quickly in the hot water and over chlorinate your spa. Just like the di-chlor powder, the tri-chlor puts a lot of stabilizer (CYA) in the water which builds up and limits chlorine's effectiveness.

Once you've used di-chlor for a few weeks to establish a moderate level of CYA, it is good to switch to an unstabilized form of Chlorine such as Sodium Hypochlorite liquid (Unscented Bleach) or Lithium Hypochlorite. Calcuim Hypochlorite can be used, but will gradually increase the calcium hardness of the water and potentially contribute to scaling.

Just my thought

Chris W

[ivieisme]

Ivieisme

It looks like your chem. questions have been answered, but I just wanted to add one thing. I noticed that you wrote one of your children enter the spa in a swim diaper. In case you dealer never mentioned this, please be careful with young kids in hot water. Their core body temperature can change quickly, which can cause hypothermia. Children under 5 should not be in for longer then 10-15min with 99-100 degree water, and even less time with hotter water.

I keep the spa between 97 and 99, depending on the outside air. We are in South Florida. I wouldn't want it any warmer. Thanks!