California Cooperage

[Spa User Guy]

Steel frame advocates are very funny people!!! They make me laugh, ha ha!

Now that was an intelligent well thought out meaningful response. You must be smokin' the good stuff?

[JohnD]

It is the Ultimate series with Coleman badges on it. It is part of the MAAX collection

what are the logos on the new brochures for the 705, 706 & M6

and the head rests, Coleman or Maax?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Skyscrapers on Manhattan island (NYC) have been around 200 years and still stand strong because of steel. If there were buildings 5 stories high made from wood they would of lasted probably 50 years. The empire state building is 100+ stories and it isn't wood. LOL There is no argument wich is stronger and longer lasting, however with a spa the rest of it would rot away.

Ironically I saw the History of Metal on the History Channel yesterday. Steel made skyscrapers a possiblity because of its ability to withstand side to side movement as the buildings get higher (due to wind for example). The day Sundance and Hot Springs start making 10 story hot tubs is the day you an use skyscrapers as an example of why steel makes more sense than wood for the industry.

[Spa User Guy]

Ironically I saw the History of Metal on the History Channel yesterday. Steel made skyscrapers a possiblity because of its ability to withstand side to side movement as the buildings get higher (due to wind for example). The day Sundance and Hot Springs start making 10 story hot tubs is the day you an use skyscrapers as an example of why steel makes more sense than wood for the industry.

If you think Sundance and Hotspring will always use wood for frames, you may want to think again. The ever changing world we live in requires manufacturers to constantly improve upon their products and design. These two are among the industry leaders in spa technology no doubt. There is good chance that in 5 years or so Sundance and Hotsprings may both feature a galvanized metal frame. By then Hotsprings may even have designed a high quality ABS type base which will be far superior to the current wood base being constantly exposed to wet conditions. Perhaps by then some of the other brands will have a filtration system as good as Hotsprings system is now. After all look at far how they have come in the last 20 years or so. Change is inevitable, much like we learn by watching the History Channel.

[Roger]

If you think Sundance and Hotspring will always use wood for frames, you may want to think again. The ever changing world we live in requires manufacturers to constantly improve upon their products and design. These two are among the industry leaders in spa technology no doubt. There is good chance that in 5 years or so Sundance and Hotsprings may both feature a galvanized metal frame. By then Hotsprings may even have designed a high quality ABS type base which will be far superior to the current wood base being constantly exposed to wet conditions. Perhaps by then some of the other brands will have a filtration system as good as Hotsprings system is now. After all look at far how they have come in the last 20 years or so. Change is inevitable, much like we learn by watching the History Channel.

Steel will never take over in any industry that uses wood because of its superior strengh. A 1" inch thick steel beam will be tons stronger than a 1" thick wood beam for sure. But that is not how it's done. Steel thicknesses are caculated comparable to wood strengh. The frame work for an all steel commercial structure consist of studs that are 16 gauge. This gauge compares to standerd 2x4 framing lumber. In the vertical position they both have the same strengh. But put them over your knee and see which is stronger. By comparing skyscrapers with 1" thick steel frame work to the framework in our houses or in a HT is idiotic.

There may however be another reason steel will be added as framework to alot of products and it has nothing to do it's longevity or strengh..........we may get slim on trees. It's used in commercial and even some residential applications not because of it's strengh or longevity, it's used for its fire retardent propertys, cost, and nothing more. If the steel frame of a HT was galvinized after it was drilled and the fasteners were SS with nylock it would be a better concept. But I have seen 20 year old HS that were still together and solid to get moved and 10 year old Colemans that fell apart upon moving, both with wood frames, but I know even a steel frame from a mediocre company will not last as long as a wood frame from a superior company. (I don't care for Hot Springs) So pick a different superior company.

ABS on the bottom is a very good concept that I find hard to believe all manufacturers aren't useing. And IMO it should also be used as a frame and would outlast both wood and steel. But that presents a whole nother problem with disposal.

Yes the steel framework folks are pretty adement about there decision and have been truely convinced it is better, good sales work. And who knows take 2 identical tubs one with steel and one with wood for framing, Say the steel lasts longer. Not sure if that will be a good thing in the dump or if the steel frame will be harder to cut up into disposable pieces because that is the only difference it will make because both tubs pumps, controls, shell, plumbing will be long past the life expectancy when it matters.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

If you think Sundance and Hotspring will always use wood for frames, you may want to think again. The ever changing world we live in requires manufacturers to constantly improve upon their products and design. These two are among the industry leaders in spa technology no doubt. There is good chance that in 5 years or so Sundance and Hotsprings may both feature a galvanized metal frame. By then Hotsprings may even have designed a high quality ABS type base which will be far superior to the current wood base being constantly exposed to wet conditions. Perhaps by then some of the other brands will have a filtration system as good as Hotsprings system is now. After all look at far how they have come in the last 20 years or so. Change is inevitable, much like we learn by watching the History Channel.

I agree BUT I think the reasons you may see changes like this are for Marketing reasons. Steel frames are a good subject in the sales pitch. If you know anything about sales pitches you know that reality takes a backseat to what SOUNDS best.

[Brulan1]

I agree BUT I think the reasons you may see changes like this are for Marketing reasons. Steel frames are a good subject in the sales pitch. If you know anything about sales pitches you know that reality takes a backseat to what SOUNDS best.

You couldn't have put it into a better perspective, AMEN!

[susan]

Now that was an intelligent well thought out meaningful response. You must be smokin' the good stuff?

That's hysterical! I'm more confused than ever, the original question was never answered, and SpaUserGuy, you need to switch to decaf! haha

[Brulan1]

That's hysterical! I'm more confused than ever, the original question was never answered, and SpaUserGuy, you need to switch to decaf! haha

log, log its big its brown its wood, its log, log its better than bad its good, everyone wants the wood. Wood or Steel, hmmmm. wood must be longer lasting duhhhhh.

[Roger]

log, log its big its brown its wood, its log, log its better than bad its good, everyone wants the wood. Wood or Steel, hmmmm. wood must be longer lasting duhhhhh.

Wood can be alot longer lasting than metal. It depends on alot of factors. Our house (made from wood) lasts longer than our auto fenders (made from steel)

[Brulan1]

Wood can be alot longer lasting than metal. It depends on alot of factors. Our house (made from wood) lasts longer than our auto fenders (made from steel)

Look at how much exposure a car gets and how much a house frame gets. A car goes through alot more wear and tear than a house goes through I would think.

[Roger]

Look at how much exposure a car gets and how much a house frame gets. A car goes through alot more wear and tear than a house goes through I would think.

So...what goes through more wear a Hot tub frame or a house frame? I have a follow up for this Brulan.

[Brulan1]

So...what goes through more wear a Hot tub frame or a house frame? I have a follow up for this Brulan.

Depends on how big the house is, right?

[Roger]

Depends on how big the house is, right?

No....you said a car fnder is exposed to the elements in a worse way than a house frame. So I was trying to get you to comapre a hot tub frame to a house frame as far as exposure to the elements. If you would of said a house frame I would of asked how long a house frame lasted and if you though it was long enough? If you would of said a tub frame I would of asked then if you though steel was such a good idea for a tub frame, because of its eposure to the elements like a car fender it will probaly rust out.. Which kinda brings us back to wood or steel in a hot tub frame is nothing more than marketing because wood will outlast any hot tub on the market if used properly in the frame of any structure, hot tub included. So why is steel better? Because you can market it as better when it really don't matter.

[Brulan1]

No....you said a car fnder is exposed to the elements in a worse way than a house frame. So I was trying to get you to comapre a hot tub frame to a house frame as far as exposure to the elements. If you would of said a house frame I would of asked how long a house frame lasted and if you though it was long enough? If you would of said a tub frame I would of asked then if you though steel was such a good idea for a tub frame, because of its eposure to the elements like a car fender it will probaly rust out.. Which kinda brings us back to wood or steel in a hot tub frame is nothing more than marketing because wood will outlast any hot tub on the market if used properly in the frame of any structure, hot tub included. So why is steel better? Because you can market it as better when it really don't matter.

wood will out last components?

[Roger]

wood will out last components?

Yes the wood frame on a hot tub will outlast the components. and you could buy a second set (pump-s,controls,heater) and the wood frame would still outlast it, And by the third set of components you will want a different tub anyway!

My point....steel is no better than wood.

[Spa User Guy]

Yes the wood frame on a hot tub will outlast the components. and you could buy a second set (pump-s,controls,heater) and the wood frame would still outlast it, And by the third set of components you will want a different tub anyway!

My point....steel is no better than wood.

Rog, I think you've made your point of view on this issue pretty clear to everyone. There is little or no chance of convincing the rest of us who feel galvanized steel is superior otherwise. Like you said yourself earlier, probably would be best to agree to disagree on this one. Ponder this for just a sec..... if this was the case (wood was superior to steel) Maax Spas probably wouldn't go to all the trouble to include the steel frame on its higher product line.

[Roger]

Rog, I think you've made your point of view on this issue pretty clear to everyone. There is little or no chance of convincing the rest of us who feel galvanized steel is superior otherwise. Like you said yourself earlier, probably would be best to agree to disagree on this one. Ponder this for just a sec..... if this was the case (wood was superior to steel) Maax Spas probably wouldn't go to all the trouble to include the steel frame on its higher product line.

Heres how I ponder this. First off I never said wood was superior. I said metal wasn't superior and it would not matter if the frame was metal or wood becaues they will both outlast the tub. Second a mediocre spa manufacturer looking for a marketing edge means nothing as far as putting superiority on a metal frame to claim a higher end product because of its framing material choice. Metal or wood frame they remain a mediocre spa manufacturer. I think most will agree, the higher end spa manufacturers that have a great reputation and a proven track record and they still use wood. There not going to change to steel because Maxx has somehow stolen there business because of there marketing choice.

Maxx and the Coleman line is a fine tub. wood or steel frame does not put them in the top ten in my opinion. They IMO share the next level with about another ten manufacturers. And ive repaired and moved enough to know. Our local dealer closed so I will be seeing more of them soon. I am however glad you are adement about the brand you sell being the best brand on the market and one of the top brands available. That's how good salesman sell there product.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Rog, I think you've made your point of view on this issue pretty clear to everyone. There is little or no chance of convincing the rest of us who feel galvanized steel is superior otherwise. Like you said yourself earlier, probably would be best to agree to disagree on this one. Ponder this for just a sec..... if this was the case (wood was superior to steel) Maax Spas probably wouldn't go to all the trouble to include the steel frame on its higher product line.

Spa User Guy,

I think you've made your point of view on this issue pretty clear to everyone. There is little or no chance of convincing the rest of us who feel PT wood is and has always been, just fine.

Ponder this for just a sec..... Maax Spas possibly went with the steel frame on its higher product line for little reason beyond use of it as a good sales pitch.

[Brulan1]

Heres how I ponder this. First off I never said wood was superior. I said metal wasn't superior and it would not matter if the frame was metal or wood becaues they will both outlast the tub. Second a mediocre spa manufacturer looking for a marketing edge means nothing as far as putting superiority on a metal frame to claim a higher end product because of its framing material choice. Metal or wood frame they remain a mediocre spa manufacturer. I think most will agree, the higher end spa manufacturers that have a great reputation and a proven track record and they still use wood. There not going to change to steel because Maxx has somehow stolen there business because of there marketing choice.

Maxx and the Coleman line is a fine tub. wood or steel frame does not put them in the top ten in my opinion. They IMO share the next level with about another ten manufacturers. And ive repaired and moved enough to know. Our local dealer closed so I will be seeing more of them soon. I am however glad you are adement about the brand you sell being the best brand on the market and one of the top brands available. That's how good salesman sell there product.

Maax makes an all around high quality tub. They used wood for 15 years before switching any of the performance models to gavalum. They used 3" blown foam in there tubs but switched all of them to thermallock. They had experience with both and came out with an awsome product and still improving. I feel the rest of the industry will follow suit in my opinion once alot of the manufacturers see in 5 years or less that it really is better to have steel and gives an incentive to keep the spa's longer because of no rot and easy switching of components. You'll see and you can recheck this thread and I TOLD YOU SO!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

You'll see and you can recheck this thread and I TOLD YOU SO!

I don't disagree but I think that the others may turn to this for the sales pitch as well. I don't see added value to the product itself but if it helps on the sales floor that is a big plus all by itself.

[Spa User Guy]

Spa User Guy,

I think you've made your point of view on this issue pretty clear to everyone. There is little or no chance of convincing the rest of us who feel PT wood is and has always been, just fine.

Ponder this for just a sec..... Maax Spas possibly went with the steel frame on its higher product line for little reason beyond use of it as a good sales pitch.

I'm gonna have to call serious BS on this one, it goes far beyond a sales pitch. I am not and do not sell anything however I can identify superior equipment design, it what I have experience doing in the real world. Some people resist changes in technology and design thinking and come from the old school. This whole argument bears similarity to arguing whether the square wheel was better than round. From a licensed engineers point of view this is a totally ridiculous topic to debate.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I'm gonna have to call serious BS on this one, it goes far beyond a sales pitch. I am not and do not sell anything however I can identify superior equipment design, it what I have experience doing in the real world. Some people resist changes in technology and design thinking and come from the old school. This whole argument bears similarity to arguing whether the square wheel was better than round. From a licensed engineers point of view this is a totally ridiculous topic to debate.

Earlier you say to Roger "Like you said yourself earlier, probably would be best to agree to disagree on this one." Now you've decided that you're the experienced one and you'll just let us know you're correct. Thanks for clearing it up for us.

[Roger]

I'm gonna have to call serious BS on this one, it goes far beyond a sales pitch. I am not and do not sell anything however I can identify superior equipment design, it what I have experience doing in the real world. Some people resist changes in technology and design thinking and come from the old school. This whole argument bears similarity to arguing whether the square wheel was better than round. From a licensed engineers point of view this is a totally ridiculous topic to debate.

I'm not calling you stupid Spa user guy and sorry I got you confused with a dealer selling a particular product. I now understand why your trying to justify your purchase. And hey. It's OK I fix plenty of engineers spas for them, wood and steel frame both. Being an engineer in no means qualifys you as smarter than a whole lot of other people. I'm not an engineer but guess what, through real world experience I can tell you that the equipment and design on the Maxx line is NOT superior to a bunch of other brands.

[Spa User Guy]

I'm not calling you stupid Spa user guy and sorry I got you confused with a dealer selling a particular product. I now understand why your trying to justify your purchase. And hey. It's OK I fix plenty of engineers spas for them, wood and steel frame both. Being an engineer in no means qualifys you as smarter than a whole lot of other people. I'm not an engineer but guess what, through real world experience I can tell you that the equipment and design on the Maxx line is NOT superior to a bunch of other brands.

Rog, Nice adle-minded attempt to belittle me. I am happy to hear of your illustrious career as an accomplished all knowing-all brands spa repair person. I certainly don't need to justify my purchase like you imply. I'm sure you are perfectly able to accomplish your spa repairs as could most any able bodied licensed BSME. Sorry you are so upset that from an engineer's standpoint galvanized steel is a far better structural material for hot tub frame design. Stick to what you do for a living, fixing hot tubs. How many galvanized steel frames have you repaired ever ??.....I'll hazard a guess here and say ..zero. I'll stick to what I do and know, equipment design and development. Personally I feel quite confident that I once my warranty period is over I won't need to be calling a spa repairman to perform any service work for me. FYI I don't own a Maax Spa (yes that is the correct spelling) I own a Clearwater 9100 Ultra which I am quite satisfied with. I looked at the Coleman Maax built spas before buying the Clearwater, I know they do have a nice galvanized steel frame like the Clearwater does. Like it or not these galvanized metal frames are the current wave of the future in spas.