waterbear

What kind of digital tester? Some are more accurate than others. Does it use strips or does it use liquid or tablet reagents? The strip readers are NOT nearly as good as the coloremters. I assume you are using chorine and not bromine in your spa so a CYA reading of 19 is about as high as you want to go. Calcium hardness is a bit low (I assume you have an acrylic spa with an electric heater.) Personally, I feel CH should be above about 125 ppm. This will help prevent foaming. What are all these other 'perfect' readings? With your CYA at about 20 ppm you should have your FC in the 5- 10 ppm range. TA depends on they source of your chlorine. If you are using an acidic stabilized chlorine (dichlor) you need to run your TA higher than if you are using a non stabilized pH neutal chlorine (cal hypo, lithium hypochlorite, sodium hypochlorite--liquid chlorine or bleach). Even though all these unstablilized chlorines have a high pH the reaction that occurs when the chlorine sanitizes and is converted to chloride ions is acidic so the net effect of using one of these is fairly pH neutral! IF you post the full set of test results we can see better what is going on since many of the readings are dependant on where another reading is (FC/CYA, TA/CH/pH)

OK, understand what the problem is....you have a few things going on. First Ascorbic acid will create a HUGE chlorine demand until it is all oxidized by the clorine. You overdosed on it big time! the usual dosage is 1 lb per 10000 gallons so you only needed 1.5 lbs for your pool! Second, your salt level is very low. The readout on the AquaRite is not a salt meter but a conductivity meter that approximates your salt level. The strips are a chemical test and will be much more accurate. You need salt. The recommened level is 3200 ppm but I like to run it slightly higher, around 3400 ppm because it puts less stress on the salt cell. I assume you have a Taylor K-2005 test kit? Post a full set of results so we can take it from here. To address your problem you need to do a few things and have some patience! First, get your salt level up. You need to add 100 lbs. This should raise you 800 ppm to about 3300 ppm. Next you need to get your CYA up about 20 ppm. 2 lbs should bring you up about 17 ppm which is close enough for government work. Do NOT clean the filter for a week after adding it or you will lose some of it! Next, you need to take care of the algae from the low chlorine condition. Get some polyquat 60 algaecide. Do NOT use anything but polyquat 60! Look for the ingredient poly[oxyethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene-(dimethyliminio)ethylene dichloride] on the bottle and you have the right thing. Dose according to bottle directions and run the pump for 24 hours after adding. About 12-24 hours after adding the poly quat we can start attacking the chlorine demand that you have! You are going to need bleach and a lot of it! (you can also use 12.5% chlorine from the pool store if you prefer. You will need less of it since it is the same things as bleach but more concentrated). You want to add enough bleach or liquid chlorine directly into your skimmer 2 or three times a day to raise the pool to shock level (20 ppm) until your FC is holding overnight and the pool is clear. (You want to pour it slowly into the skimmer because this way it lessens the possibility that any staining will reappear in your pool but will more likely stain the filter, which is what you want. At first the ascorbic acid and the algae will be eating the chlorine but it will finally start to hold. Your SWG just can't keep up with it even in superchlorinate and it's better to use bleach or liquid chlorine for shocking anyway because it doesn't wear out your salt cell as fast and it's more effective since the chlorine is added all at once instead of slowly rising. Your cell is creating exactly the same thing as liquid chlorine or bleach anyway. If you did a stain treatment I assume you added metal sequestant to the water. If you did not add a double dose now or the stains will return. Normally, it's a good idea not to shock for 2 weeks after a stain treatment but you overdosed on the ascorbic acid and it's more important right now to get your chlorine demand in line. If the stains start to return just drop your pH to 7.0 and add more sequesterant! For your 15000 gallon pool you need to add 4 gallons of Ultra bleach (6%) or 5 3/4 gallons of regular bleach (5.25%) or 2 gallons and 1.5 qts. of liquid chlorine (12.5)%. This is the right amount to raise your pool 20 ppm. It will take a lot of bleach and a bit of time to destroy all the excess ascorbic acid in your pool! Keep at it. Test your water 2 or three times a day and add more bleach to maintain the FC at 20 ppm. (with your taylor kit you can use the dilution method to test higher FC and TC levels. It's on the lid of your kit at the bottom of the chlorine test section. Use the 1.8 ml dilution ) You will have a LOT of combined clorine at first, just keep tabs on the FC. Test the pool in the evening after adding the chlorine and again in the morning and when the FC is holding overnight (no more than a 1 or 2 ppm drop) , there is no Combined Chlorine, and the pool is clear (or possibly milky looking from dead algae). you can start to let your clorine levels drop to normal. It might take a week for your filter to clear all the dead algae. Once the CYA you added has had a week to dissolve it's ok to start cleaning the filter again unless the pressure has risen too high. Then clean it and worry about the CYA after you finish. I suspect that enough of the CYA will dissolve before you need to clean the filter that it will get you into the correct range. Don't worry about your pH or other water parameter right now. Just kill the algae and satisfy the chlorine demand! Once you have finsihed and your chlorine levels are back to normal then you can procede to fine tune your other water parameters! If there is any metal staining in the filter you can remove it by using an acid filter cleaner if you have a sand filter, or (if you have a cartridge filter) by soaking the filter overnight in a solution of 1 cup automatic dishwasher detergent powder such as Cascase or Electorsol to every 5 cups water, rinsing, and then soaking the cart for about 20-30 minutes in a solution of 1 part muriatic acid to every 20 parts water and rinse again. DO NOT acid wash a cart before soaking in a degreaser (the automatic dishwasher degergent powder) because you will ruin it! The oils and organics will harden into a cement like mass! If you have a DE filter just break the filter down and clean it and recharge with DE. Hope this helps! Forgot one thing. You are going to need the biggest bottle of POP (Pool Owner Patinece) you can find. Apply it liberally to yourself several times a day!

"FC 2 (or maybe 3 if I let it sit for a couple of min - not sure how to use 0001 and 0002 . . . do I read immediately or wait?)" Read it immediately after mixing to get your Free Chlorine. Then add the R-0003, cap and mix and read immedaitely to get the Total Chlorine. (does anyone else have problems with quoting replies since the software was upgraded? It won't let me post if I quote.)

quick test to do. Hold an ordinary vitamin c tablet on the staining. If it disappears in a matter of about 30 seconds it's iron and easy to treat with ascorbic acid and metal sequesterant. Post your results of the vitamin c test and we can take it from there. High pH and high santizer is what usually causes staining to appear and you did say you added pH increaser. Did you also shock the pool?

FYI, Proteamhas a product for pools called System Support. It is just sodium percarbonate! Porteam products can be found in many pool supplies.

One each refill add the Bromstart to create the 'bank' of bromide ions in the water. Then shock with bleach to covert (oxidize) the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, your active sanitzer. If you are going to use a chlorine system then all you will need for sanitation would be a source of chlorine. Bleach is sodium hypochlorite, exactly the same thing as the liquid chlorine sold at pool/spa supply stores! All you would need is bleach (and your other water balancing chemicals, just like with bromine.) You might also need a small amount of stabilizer (cyanuric acid) if the spa gets a lot of sun to protect the chlorine from 'burning off' quickly in the UV from the sun.

You might also need to make small adjustments to your CYA and other water parameters but it is not a big deal. If you have an above ground pool you should check out the Goldline AquaTrol units. They are made sepcifically for above ground pools and are very easy to install yourself! www.goldlinecontrols.com Goldline is owned by Hayward.

Goldline Controls (Hayward) are, IMHO, one of the better SWGs on the market. Have one on my own pool and spa! (Goldline Aqualogic PS-8 automation and SWG system). If you have one of the Aqualogic automation units all you need to do is add the salt cell option. Pool Pilot is probably the most advanced SWG on the market and is an excellent unit and WaterMaid is the company that developed the technology in the first place and have the most years of experience. IMHO, these are the top three on the market and all have excellent customer support (which can't be said of some of the other brands out there).

You can get a peristaltic pump to dose liquid chlorine. I would not worry about ORP controllers but just use a timeclock for the dosing pump and test your water to adjust the settings. ORP controllers will have problem with the cyanuric acid.

but had some algae problems in the summer. If you had algae then you were letting your bromine levels drop too low or the bromine was getting burned off by the sun too quickly. If you keep your bromine in the 6-8 ppm range and test it daily you should be able to avoid that problem. Shocking, or oxidizing, the water to raise the bromine above 10 ppm weekly helps but be sure to let the bromine drop below 10 ppm before entering the spa. Also had issues with I'm guessing chlorine gas being released when jets (bubbles) were on making it difficult to breathe near the water's surface. If you were using bromine then there would not be chlorine in the spa, even if you just shocked with chlorine, if you have first establised a bromide reserve in the water by adding sodium bromide on filling. The chlorine would have oxidized the bromide into active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid, and would no longer exists in the water. Bromine has a decided 'chemical' or 'caustic' smell that many people find unpleasant. I suspect that is what you were smelling and I suspect that your bromine levels were high at the time also. If you were actually smelling chlorine it would mean that there was no bromide reserve in the water (which sometimes happens when people try to do bromine by only putting tablets in a floater and neglect adding the sodium bromide.) Am currently using Brilliance System. Like the lack of chlorine smell plus no more breathing problems. This is probably because your bromine is much lower. However its nearly impossible to maintain free bromine In a bromine system you are only testing total bromine. without oxydizing every 2-3 days when the sun is shining - and we haven't even hit summer yet! Turning out to be very expensive. Still a bromine system but it uses potassium monopersulfate (MPS) to shock. It still converts the bromide into active bromine sanitizer in exactly the same way as chlorine does. Fucntionally no different but the marketing hype of a chlorine free system sells it!(and it IS expensive!) IMHO, a properly maintained chlorine spa has much less of a chemical odor than a bromine spa, but it does require daily maintenance to maintain the chlorine levels. One of the biggest problems with bromine is that it is not stable in UV light. The dimethylhydantion in bromine tablets add a bit of UV stability over time if they build up high enough but create the same sort of problems seen in overstabilized chlorine systems. A three step bromine system (adding sodium bromide on filling, shocking with unstablized chlorine or MPS and using bromine tablets in a floater to maintain the bromine levels) might be the least maintenance (but bromine does have that 'choking' odor!) but you could also go with chlorine and add about 30 ppm cyanuric acid to help stabilize it against loss from UV. I would not go any higher than that in a spa and I would run the free chlorine levels at about 6-8 ppm if you go that route. You will have to manually chlorinate with an unstablized chlorine source daily to maintain your Free chlorine levels. Shock the system with chorine to about 15 ppm whenever the combined chlorine tests above .5 ppm. I would not use dichlor because it will cause the cyanuric acid levels to rise to quickly and lead to overstabilization. This will diminish the chlorine's sanitizing effectiveness and could allow pseudomonas to grow in the heated spa water. This is what causes 'hot tub itch'. Hope this is helpful.

If you are using a non chlorine shock disregard the combined chlorine reading. Non chlorine shock residual in the water will test as combined chlorine, even though it is not. Taylor sell a special reagent to remove this interferance if you are using non chlorine shock, but IMHO, it is not really necesssary as long as you add the non chlorine shock on a regular basis to maintain the residual and do not mix shocking with chlorine and non chlorine shock. Choose one method or the other. If you are using chlorine to shock then you need to shock to a much higher level than you have to reach breakpoint (at least 30 ppm in your case!).

You still need to maintain exactly the same water balance as you did with manual chlorination. The SWG will make the chlorine for you but you still need to balance the TA, CH, have the CYA in the manufacturer's recommended range, test your chlorine levels and adjust the output of the genterator to maintain it in the proper range, etc. Keep close watch on your pH. SWGs tend to cause it to rise.Also keep an eye on your salt level and add salt whenever it drops low. SWGs simplify pool maintenance but they do not eliminate it nor the need for water testing.

The meter is actually a decent one and that company is just putting their logo on it. It is basically a rebranded LaMotte Tracer (which I believe is a rebranded tester from another company and not made by LaMotte! Possibly Hanna? ) To answer your question if it is any value to a home spa owner, NO!

From the Taylor website, Hope this helps! All Canadian orders must go through our master distributor in Canada, Lowry & Associates in Newmarket, Ontario (905-836-0505) or mlowry@lowryassociates.ca.

Your pH has been on the high side but we still don't know how high your calcium is. Take a sample to a dealer or pool store and get a full set of test results. I still suspect scaling and acid is the only way to remove it. You might also want to get a better test kit while you are at it. If you are using bromine it would be the Taylor K-2106, for chlorine the Taylor K-2006. This way you can keep better watch on your water balance and keep a problem like this from happening in the first place! Also, you can run your bromine levels a bit lower....around 6 ppm should be fine! I think the point that Dr. Spa was trying to make is just because you can't test for all water parameters it doesn't mean you can ignore them and that if you are asking for help with a water balance issue (and scaling IS a water balance issue) then a full set of test results or even a history of them is important in trying to determine the problem and how to fix it or prevent it in the future! Your posts indicate water balance problems and I think that is what Dr. Spa was trying to point out. First you say that the levels you could test for are 'spot on' but you are having foaming problems. If you are having foaming problems or cloudiness then your water balance is off. Second you indicated that you were having problems maintianing your pH in range, once again there is something going on with either your water balance or spa care technique that only a full set of test results over a period of a week or two done at least every few days can pinpoint!

The Mineral Springs MS-10 is actually a rebranded Goldline Controls (Hayward) Aqua Rite unit (older model). You can go to the goldline website and download the instructions. http://www.goldlinecontrols.com/Support/Manuals.aspx They may not be exact but they will be pretty close since the unit is indentical but is an older version of the current Goldline unit! You are correct that the minerals readout is a salt readout. The goldine units have this option also. This is because Bioguard sells it's 'mineral mix' of begeinnings and renewal which are just actually a very expensive blend of salt and borax and dry acid (and I believe that beginnings also has cya in it) and are totally unnecessary! The unit is actually measuring conductivity (just like about 95% of SWGs on the market) and aprroximating the salt level from it. They display is just reading minerals ppm instead of salt ppm!

To prevent it from happening againg once you fix the problem if it turns out to be scale deposits you need to keep close watch on your pH and don't let it go above 7.6!!!!! HIgh pH is the most important contributor to scaling. You really can't to much about your high calcium levels but your can certainly lower your TA to around 100 ppm and keep your pH at about 7.5! Also, Arch Chemical has just done some research and have shown that high CYA levels (100 ppm or above) can and will damage plaster pools and cause suface etching so you might want to get you CYA level down by a partial drain and refill. High sulfate levels from using dry acid (pH up) instead of muriatic acid and or from using non chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate, MPS) can also damage plaster. Hope this helps.

Yes and no. I have seen a few different chemcals that have been labeled spa shock. Just about alll non chlorine shocks are going to be postasium monopersulfate (MPS or KMPS). I have also seen calcium hypochorite (cal hypo) labeled as spa shock (HTH brand). This is a form of unstabilzied chlorine. Either one of these is suitable for shocking a chlorine or bromine spa but they are not interchangable since they are used differently because they work differently. Unscented chlorine bleach or liquid chlorine can also be used to shock a spa. I have also seen dichlor labeled as spa shock. IMHO, this is not a good choice to shock a spa with because for ever 1 ppm of free chlorine added you are also adding .9 ppm cyanuric acid (stabilizer) and that can quickly lead to overstabilzation which will decrease the sanitizing ability of the chlorine and could lead to growth of psuedomonas, which causes "hot tub itch" and other pathogens in the water. For biguanide systems hydrogen peroxide is the most common shock but occasionally sodium percarbonate is used. Bottm line is this, there are only really a few different chemicals that are used in spas. Learn what the ingredient is and not just what it is labeled. For example, alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate. This is also called baking soda and you can get it at the grocery store! In fact, the baking soda at the grocery store is often purer than the stuff sold by suppliers. Ditto for pH increaser, sodium carbonate. Washing soda at the grocery store. Many manufacturers will try and make 'one step solutions' to simplify spa care. Some of them work and some of them don't. I personally like to test my water and adjust only the thing that needs adjusting. I feel in the long run it makes water care easier.

Might be scale deposits. Post a full set of water test results, including calcium done with a liquid test kit and not strips. If you calcium levels are high that would indicate that this is a scale deposit. You can remove it with diluted muriatic acid (about 1 part to 20 parts water, wear gloves and goggles) then bring your pH back up with borax if it's dropped below about 7.0 (and keep the circulation OFF while doing this, you don't want acidic water going through your heater!, drain and refill. If your calcium levels in your fill water are high (above about 400 ppm) then add a scale inhibitor on filling and keep really close watch on your pH. High pH is what creates scaling condiditons when the calcium is high. You can test if this is a scale deposit by applying a bit of diluted acid to it. If it bubbles it's scale!

Since your pH is already at 7.1 you are have a start on the process. Turn on all your jets and blowers to aerate the water and keep them on throughout the process and the spa uncovered. As you aerate your pH will start to rise. When it does add acid to drop it back to about 7.0 and check your TA. At first not much will happen but keep aerating and dropping the pH to 7.0 and you will start to see your TA coming down. Keep up the process until your TA gets to about 100 or slightly lower (since your fill water has such a high TA I would run the spa at the lower end of TA since any fill water you add to replace spash out will raise it). Once your TA is at the target level stop adding any more acid and just aerate and test pH until it climbs back up to 7.6 and you are done. On future fills it might be easier to fill the spa with softened water and then just add a small amount of calcium to bring your level up to about 120 ppm and not worry that much about the high TA. You will have to keep watching your Ph if you do this since it will have a tendancy to be always rising, however. The water softener won't affect your TA, only lower your calcium to 0 ppm and remove any metals that might be present. so you still will have to lower the TA and then add a small amount of calcium back into the water.

Don''t sweat it....I have 'blond moments' also! Just keep up the great work with all the good advice you give!

Pathfinder, Chemgeek is, as usual, right on the money! He might not be in the industry but he had a great deal of knowledge and his information is accurate. I am in the industry and I agree with everything he has posted in this thread!.

Actually this is a quaternary ammonium compound or linerar quat type of algaecide.

Where I work we sell a lot of liquid chlorine for pools, expecially those that have cartridge filters because we are in an area that has an extended swim season and we don't winterize pools. Because of this high CYA levels from stabilized chlorine become a problem and our customers don't like to have to drain and refill to combat it. Bleach is exactly the same as liquid chlorine, just not as concentrated. My customers that use liquid chlorine spend much less on chemicals and also have less problems than those that are using other forms of chlorination and they ARE following a proven plan from a dealer! Because we can save them money on normal maintenance they come to us for big ticket items like filters, SWGs, automatic cleaners, etc. even though our prices aren't always the lowest they can find. Zinc or copper will keep algae at bay but then you have metals in your water. Well water will often contain metals and require the use of a metal sequaterant which is not compatible with using metals as an alage preventative (if your supposition is true that jmtf is using well water for his fill water.). Borates at 30-50 ppm is a much better algae preventative, IMHO. The only algaecides I routinely recommend are polyquat 60 or, for mustard and black algae, sodium bromide in conjunction with chlorine although we also sell copper, linear quats, and inorganic ammonia based ones.