waterbear

One of the main problems you will encounter is that your pH will rise very fast since you will need to operate the SWG at a very high output to produce that level of chlorine. Bite the bullet and start drains and refills. It's for the best.

Goldline controls recommends a CYA level of 60-80 ppm and I have found that 70-80 works very well. Get your CYA down to that level (and DON'T use strips to do it...they are just not reliable!)

You need to get your CYA tested. Goldline recommends 60-80 ppm and it really does help you maintain chlorine. I test a lot of pools and have found that FC between about 3-5 ppm seems to work very well in salt pools. Lower levels do need to be shocked but if you keep it between 3-5 ppm and keep the CYA between 60-80 and make sure to keep the pH in line the chances are you will never need to shock your pool. If you do then don't use the superchlorinate setting, It shortens cell life. You will shock much more effectively by adding liquid chlorine. You do not have a bromine system so ignore the bromine readings in your test kit. The same test is used for both chlorine and bromine but the bromine numbers are higher. Keep you salt level slightly on the high side and you will also prolong cell life. Between 3200-3500 ppm is good. The Aquachek Salt test strips are exremely accurate and easy to use. Just be sure to allow enough time for development, which can take up to 10 minutes. I have found that the following numbers are a good guide for salt pools based on my experiences, my customers experiences and the experiences of salt pool onwners on two other forums that I am active on. FC 3-5 ppm CC less than .5 ppm pH 7.6 (not lower, when it hits 7.8 it's time to put acid in to lower it back to 7.6) TA 60-90 ppm BEFORE stabilizer correction (this is lower than normally recommened but combined with the pH adjustments above it will help minimize your acid usage) CH 250-350 ppm to achieve water balance with the lower TA recommened above CYA 70-80 ppm Salt 3200-3500 ppm Borates 50 ppm (an optional addition that can really help reduce acid usage and also lessen your santizer demand considerably) I anm not going to go into all the chemical justificaton for why this works but these chemical levels really do optimize the performance of your SWG and are what I run in my own salt pool and have my cusotmers run.

If you have algae it will consume chlorine very quickly. Also, certain types of algaecides (chlorine enhancers based on sodium bromide or inorganic ammonia) will also create a very big chlorine demand and make it difficult to maintan a FC level after their use. Get your water tested and post a full set of results.

ARe you using bromine or chlorine? Most test kits will test either bromine or chlorine so they will have a scale for both but you only look at the one for the chemical you are using.

I have suggested numerous times before that biguanide is NOT the best choice for several reasons. I am surprised that the degredation of plastic has resufaced again! I had assumed that manufacuturers were using more resistant plastics this days but I guess that price over performance is still a motivating force when they select materials for construction.

A few facts....a salt bromine generator does not reduce the chemicals in the water. You are just manufacturing them instead of adding them. It's really more of a convience factor than anything else. Bromine is a known sensitizer and many people do develop an allergy to it! Much more so than chlorine! As far as ozone and bromine systems--ozone does cause bromates to form in the water and bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water (but nothing concrete has ever been published that I have been able to find about any dangers in spa water.) This is the main negative about ozone and bromine systems. Ozone, chlorine, or non chlorine shock will make the bromine levels rise if there is sodium bromide in the water. This is true if you have a bromine generator or not. It's normal bromine chemistry. Bromide ions are oxidized into hypobromous acid, the active bromine sanitizer. The Brormine generator is actually generating hypobrmous acid directly. You still add the non chlorine shock to bump up the bromine levels by converting some of the bromide ions into hypobromous acid also.

Please post a full set of test results for FC, TC, CC, pH, TA, CH, and CYA. I suspect that you have elevated CYA levels from the trichlor and do not have enough FC in the water to prevent algae because of this.

What you are seeing in your pool and what made it cloudy is most likely calcium oxalate that precipitated out when you put in the oxalic acid. IMHO, ascorbic acid is a much better solution to stains in fiberglass pools than oxalic acid. Vacuum as much of it as you can to waste. DE is often used in sand filters as a filter aid and, unless you have broken laterals in your filter, should not end up back in the pool.

Sounds like a faulty installation. Get a lawyer, you will need one. I would demand a new pool! Also contact the company that manufactured the fiberglass pool and let them know of the problems you are having with your installer.

copper and silver have very slow kill times for pathgens compared to chlorine and bromine. In an open system like a spa fast kill times are a necessity if you want santized water. Every bather that enters the tub intorducec sweat, urine (the two are almost identical chemically, btw) and feces into the water. Add to that anything that might drop into the water while it is being used (such as from a bird flying overhead for example) and you will see why fast kill times are needed. If you do not have chlorine in the water you will not have any chloramines. That does not mean there are not orgaincs and ammonia compounds in the water. If you add chlorine and you do get chloramines then it means that your oxidation from the ozone and the MPS has not been enough to keep the organics under control.

Hope this helps.

If you want to know your salt levels you need to use a chemical test for chloride (such as the Taylor titration testkit for chloride or the Aquachek Salt Test strips.) The salt level meters in SWGs are really conductivity meters and only estimate the salt level and the level will change as the temperature of the water changes. It's close enought for government work so don't loose any sleep over your reading of 3100 ppm. However, it's ususally a bit better to run the salt slightly higher than lower since it will help lengthen the life of your cell and it gives you a bit of backup in case you get a rainstorm that will dilute the salt level in the water. Your SWG will shut off and stop producing chlorine if the salt level drops below 2500 ppm to protect the cell.

Hope this helps.

I had a feeling it was something like that! So... do you test a lot of hot tub water or are you a marine biologist? I work in a pool/spa supply and have been keeping salt water reef tanks since the 70's, so I have tested a LOT of water! I did do reaseach at the U of Miami School of Marine and Atmospheric Science my senior year of high school in oceanographic physical chemistry on the precipitation of calcium carbonate from seawater and the effects of various ions on the rate and form precipitated. Half a day of high school and half a day at the marine lab my senior year. Was a chem major in college.

Thanks I liked it better than Tardigrades. (Inside joke, google water bear to understand)

Use a floater so you can control the amount of bromine the tablets put into the water. Otherwise you can have bromine levels that are off the charts, as you do now!

check pH, adust if necesary, and then shock in that order.

It's not exactly cheap. Consult a local pool professional to get a quote and to see if you just need an acid wash and perhaps sandblasting or if you need a replaster job. United chemicals makes a no drain acid wash kit but I don't know if it is as effective as a regular acid wash. It would require bypassing a heater if you have one so it should still be left up to a professional, IMHO.

First thing to do is raise the TA by adding 2 oz by weight of baking soda. This will raise your TA by about 50 ppm. It will also raise your pH. About 48 hours after adding it start lowering your pH by adding 1/4 oz by weight of pH down (sodium bisufate) predissolved in a small bucket of water--about a quart (sodium bisufate), circulating about 30 minues, and then testing the pH. Repeat this process until your pH is at 7.4-7.6 and recheck your TA. It should be in the neighborhood of 100 ppm, give or take 10 ppm.

It is also bad to have too much stabalizer in your water because then the chlorine is locked. The water may demanding the chlorine but when your CA level is above 80-100ppm especially in a pool the chlorine will not release and your PH's become alot more volitile I believe that Itabb meant Cal or CH (calcium hardness) when he said CA since he made a reference to the Langelier Saturation Index (LSI). Cyanuric acid is usually abbreviated CYA and not CA to avoid confusion with calcium hardness. All these TLAs can become a PITA!

hope this helps.

X-change is bromine based and will oxidize the biguanide without having to drain and refill. (Note that chlorine is needed to be used with it to activate the bromide to hypobromous acid, the normal bromine sanitizer). Chlorine will do exactly the same thing as will sodium percarbonate (Proteam's System Support) without having to drain and refill, however, the water will turn all sorts of funny colors as the biguanide is oxidized. Even though GLB (not Robarb, another Advantis company), who makes X-change says that you can swim during the conversion I would suspect that the water will turn off color and will not be appealing. Sodium percarbonate is the fastest and most effective way to convert a biguanide based system to chlorine or bromine. It often completes the process in as little as 24-48 hours. After conversion the filters need to be replaced since they will contain biguanide residue no matter what you use to convert. In a spa it is often simpler to simply drain, refill, and shock (and keep the water at shock level by adding more chlorine) until the water is totally clear, there is no combined chlorine, and the FC level is holding.

The information on the askalanaquestion website about biguanide is accurate. IMHO, either chlorine or bromine is a much more trouble free sanitizer in the long haul. You will be cleaning and replacing filters much more often with biguanide and it is also much more expensive, expecially once you start to develop water problems. Some people do have good success with it and it is the only EPA approved sanitizer for those who have a true allergy to chlorine (rare) and bromine (more common) but it is not my first choice of sanitzer. Also, biguanide degrads some plastics sometimes used in hotubs over time so that is a concern also. Many dealers like it because it is a money maker for them. The scum you are seeing is often called 'Baquagoo' (named after one of the more popular biguanide systems, BaquaSpa). It occurs because biguanide causes bacteria to 'explode' and does not oxidize them like chlorine or bromine so the bactieral residue forms the scum. Also, if there is any chlorine present in your fill water it will also contribute to the fromation of scum when the tub is freshly filled each time.