waterbear
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Posts posted by waterbear
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18 hours ago, ItchyandFrustrated said:
FC 11
CC 8
CH 110
CYA is 100+ (the lines only go to 100 and mine as slightly below that when the dot disappears
your tub is overstabilzed which means the chlorine is not working since it's bound chemically to the CYA and that means your tub is undersanitized. 8 ppm CC indicates that something is probably growing in the tub. CC should never be higher than .5 to 1 ppm and ideally 0 ppm.
If you are doing dichlor/bleach properly your CYA would not be that high so you are doing something wrong
My guess is that the rash is from pseudomonas which can grow readily in undersanitized hot water, which is what you have.
You need to drain and refill and STOP using dichlor and switch to bleach when the cya hits 30 ppm.
You need to get your water balanced and learn how to maintain it.
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If you are getting rashes it's either a water balance issue or possibly "hot tub itch" (pseudomonas infection from understanitzed water).
First step is to post a full set of test results (FC, CC, pH, TA, CH, and CYA) to give us some idea of your water quality.
Adding borax won't really help if the water is not in balance or properly sanitized.
Gentle spa is a mixture of borax and boric acid to create a pH neutral product. You can use plain boric acid and save some money. It will create a very slight pH drop but since the pH in spas is always climbing because of the constant outgassing of CO2 it's nothing to worry about.
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Just remember, it's a hot tub, not a chemistry experiment! Go for a soak and enjoy! (Checking your sanitizer is MUCH more important than the pH or TA. An undersanitized tub can lead to all kinds of problems and possible illness.)
There, now you have something else to stress over!
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On 1/31/2023 at 3:55 PM, jaredthomas27 said:
pH is still hovering around 7.9-8.0 I have bumped my TA up to 88 with baking soda to give myself room to add more acid but I just added .5oz of acid and my pH remained unmoved. Could that be because of the borates?
1) do NOT correct the TA as outlined in the Taylor booklet. NOT necessary! @JWM6687 is correct, you only need to correct TA when calculaiting the Saturation Index and that is NOT applicable to acrylic tubs. If you have a plaster or tiled tub then you would need to worry about calcium and the saturation index.
2) if your pH remains stable and is not rising fast then your TA is fine. If it's rising fast then lower it. In most tubs this is between 50 and 70 ppm but it could even be lower in some situations. If your pH keeps crashing then your TA is too low, raise it 10 ppm and see how it goes.
3) the secondary borate buffer in the water will move the pH to around 7.9 and keep it there for an extended period. You don't need to lower it until it rises above 8.0
4) you are making this much harder than it is. Stop overthinking and if it's not broke don't try to fix it. Get your TA in range and don't try to lower pH until it rises above 8.0. When you lower pH don't go below 7.6! If you are using the acid demand test to determine how much acid to add then trust the test and add the full amount, no need to try to ":creep up" to your desired pH by adding only half the amount. You are only prolonging your pain!
5) read this, then reread it:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
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20 hours ago, RDspaguy said:
I think he's talking about the "smartchlor" toilet bowl cleaner stuff.
Smartchlor is King Technologies name for 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin, a form of chlorine stabilized with DMHD, not unlike bromine tabs. I can't find much on the chemistry behind this but I suspect it can lead to overstabilization in a way similar to CYA since chlorine oxidized to chloride cannot be regenerate the way bromine oxidized to bromine can be. I also suspect that it will test as combined chlorine and not free chlorine but, once again, cannot find anything conclusive on this.AFAIK, King Technologies is the only company using this form of chlorine for pools and spa but it is used in sewage and waste water treatment and is found in some household cleaning products such as toilet bowl cleaners..
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On 1/9/2023 at 12:07 PM, jaredthomas27 said:
it will maintain 0.5-1.0 ppm of free chlorine and then the free chlorine will increase as needed when this is paired with the mineral float
Nope, not true. It's a low chlorine system that uses silver ions. Silver has slow kill times and is ineffective against viruses and not real good at killing mold and mildew, as you have seen. The small amount of chlorine in your tub is being depleted quickly by the mold present effectively only leaving the silver, which is NOT an EPA approved sanitizer on it's own.
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Frog system is a metal ion, low chlorine system that uses a propitiatory form of chlorine. Not a fan. If mold or mildew is growing in the tub it means that your chlorine is too low to kill it. Bottom line, ditch the frog and switch to the dichlor/bleach method (check the pinned posts in this section of the forum) It's less expensive in the long run, easy once you understand it, and should not have any problems like this. I would purge with Ahhsome before starting the dichlor/bleach to ciean out any gunk in the plumbing (and I suspect that there is a lot since the tub is growing mold/mildew). The main expense you will have will be investing in a Taylor K-2006 (not the K-2005) test kit. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT USING STRIPS! Check Amazon or one of the online pool/spa supply retailers for the kit.
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What is your alkalinity? Drop it if your pH is rising too fast. Try putting it around 50 to 20 ppm (can't use strips since they do not have the resolution required, you need a drop based kit that has a resolution of 10 ppm.)
Heaters don't aerate, water circulation and jets do.
Also, please post a full set of test results and when talking about a parameter give us the numbers, not:
On 11/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Naetnom said:I can get the pH down to good range
or
On 11/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Naetnom said:My Alkalinity is good but the acid is also bringing those levels down
This tells us nothing.
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The color is from iron in the water. Filter staining is a dead giveaway. IF there is any staining left on the filter it is better to replace it since the iron can redissolve if and when pH drops. MetalFree is not the most effective sequestrant since it is based on EDTA. You want one that is based on Phosphonic Acid such as Jack's Magic or Proteam Metal Magic.
Shocking will not clear the water but can cause the iron to precipitate out and cause staining.
Calcium will not have any effect on the iron.
When asking for help with water chemistry you really need to post a full set of test results so we know what's going on instead of just trying to guess.
FWIW, you can test bromine with a Taylor K-2006 test kit by testing FC and multiplying the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. Are you currently using Dichlor/Bleach method?
I would suggest you read the pinned posts in the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum.
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On 11/21/2022 at 12:17 PM, ddrueckh said:
takes 24-48 hours to come back down below 10
not unusual. Are you leaving the tub uncovered and circulating after shocking? You want to bring the total bromine to above 10 ppm (around 15 ppm is good), and then wait until it's below 10 ppm to enter the tub. It will take a while. usually about a day.
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I split this topic into it's own thread since you are morel likely to get an answer then by tacking on to an established topic that really isn't related to your question or problem.
On 11/26/2022 at 2:02 PM, KPJ said:Any ideas on the color change immediate after turning on jets/heat with only the metal free product in water?
not without a full set of test results (NOT done with test strips) but my money is on iron in the well water.
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2 minutes ago, ddrueckh said:
I wonder if I will need to bump the pH up. If so, what do you recommend doing to keep it a little higher?
pH tends to rise on it's own. If it drops then raise the TA to around 100 ppm.
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
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On 11/15/2022 at 1:26 PM, ddrueckh said:
TA 100-120 (higher than the recommended 50-70 when using bleach)
This is for a chlorine tub or pool using dichlor or trichlor, particularity trichlor
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Hydrogen peroxide will destroy any residual halogen sanitizer in the water. The only fast acting residual sanitizer that works with H2O2 is biguinide, although some use it with metals such as silver or copper. However, this can lead to staining.
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Phosphates do not deplete chlorine! Algae and biofilms deplete chlorine. Read that a few times and let it sink in!
Listen to @Ahhsomeguy, he speaks the truth!!!!!!
Phosphates are a non issue. Phosphates are one of two algae foods that can be found in a tub or pool. The other is nitrates. We don't test for nitrate since the only way to lower them is by changing out the water with nitrate/phosphate free water. Phosphates can be precipitates and then filtered out by Lanthanum salts (a messy process at best). However, it does give pool stores another product they can sell you! (I used to work in that sector of the industry so I do have knowledge on this). The way phosphate removers work is they remove one of the food sources for algae growth. However this will only work if phosphates are the limiting factor in algae growth. Often they are not and nitrates are the problem. I'm not saying that phosphate removers are a scam but the are unnecessary almost all the time. If algae is the problem maintaining proper chlorine levels for the CYA level will take care of the problem as will addition of a polyquat 60 (Polyloxyethylene Idimethyliminiol ethylene· (dimethyliminiol ethylene dichloride) based algacide if needed (stay away from linear quats and copper based algacides).
Phosphates and nitrates usually find their way into pools and spas by runoff from fertilizer.
Since spas are kept covered most of the time one of the necessary items for algae growth, sunlight, is absent so the problem in spas is the formation of biofilm in the plumbing. This can occur whether the phosphate levels are high or non-existent. The solution is to purge the spa on a regular basis as @Ahhsomeguysuggested.
FWIW, my pool and spa have phosphate levels of over 10,000 ppb (that is parts per billion, not parts per million or ppm) and have for about 20 years now and I do not use phosphate remover nor do I have algae or biofilm Phosphate removers are usually recommended for phosphate levels of 100 ppb but research has indicated that if they are going to have any impact on algae growth (i.e. they are the limiting factor) it does not occur below 1000 ppb.
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On 11/5/2022 at 2:59 PM, Tmorin said:
As hydrogen peroxide is not an approved sanitizer (even though it has sanitizing properties) one way to use & benefit from it sanitizing & oxidizing (main function in spas) is to add UV.
Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer, and UV is not residual. Disinfection only takes place in the reaction chamber where the UV light is located.This is why it is not an approved sanitizer system. You still need a fast acting residual sanitizer!
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Done! (and thank you!!)
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What brand and model of testing kit are you using? (It does matter!)
Read these posts!!!!!! They will provide some background info (based on the actual chemistry that goes on in the water)
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
On 10/26/2022 at 8:46 AM, Rcf said:Note - I am in South Florida. They add a lot of liquid chlorine to our water because it comes from the Biscayne Aquifer and it is naturally brownish. This is an aesthetic thing, but I understand liquid chlorine has a Ph of 13 and that may be why our water Ph is high.
They actually add chlorine and ammonia . They do this because the monochloramne produce is more stable than just chlorine. As far as the pH of liquid chlorine it it net neutral (alkaline on addition, acidic on consumption) so it really has minimal impact on pH. This is also true for cal hypo.
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2 hours ago, tubbinhot said:
I probably missed it, but is there a list somewhere of what each of the acronyms are? I'm a complete newbie, and some I can figure out with context, but others I'm unclear about. Thanks!
FC free chlorine
CC combined chlorine or combined chloramines
TC total chlorine
pH Potential Hydrogen (how acidic or alkaline a solution is)
TA total alkalinity (the measure of bicarbonate ions in the water)
CH Calcium Hardness
TH Total Hardness (calcium and magnesium--useless for balancing water but most test strips only test total hardness and not calcium hardness)
CYA or CA cyanuric acid which is used to stabilize chlorine but too much will limit the disinfection ability
Br bromine
BCDMH Bromo-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (bromine tablets), normally used in a floater
cal hypo calcium hypochlorite, an inorganic powdered chlorine source that adds 7 ppm CH for every 10 ppm of FC added and is net pH neutral on use (alkaline when added, acidic on sanitation)
trichlor a slow dissolving organic chlorine source that adds 6 ppm CYA for every 10 ppm of FC added, It's extremely acidic (acidic when added, acidic on sanitation)and not normally recommended for hot tubs. It is normally used in a floater or feeder
Dichlor a fast dissolving organic chlorine source that adds 9 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of FC added.It is slightly acidic (acidic when added, acidic on sanitation)
Liquid Chlorine or Shock, plain unscented chlorine laundry bleach, sodium hypochlorite an inorganic liquid chlorine source that is net pH neutral on use (alkaline when added, acidic on sanitation). It's main side effect is causing a slight increase in salt level (sodium chloride), which has no negative effect on water chemistry.
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Some ice melters are ok, most are not. Pure calcium chloride in a 50 lb bag (food grade is not necessary, 77% - 80% is what is normally sold for swimming pools) from an online chemical retailer or pool store (online or brick and mortar) that also caters to pool service pros is your most economical option. Be aware that the dosing is different for the dihydrate and the anhydrous forms with the latter being more concentrated. Either way, one bag will last a very long time.
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On 9/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, ColoradoJohn said:
eading TA- test kit instructions say you measure when it turns to red. My solution goes from green to clear to pink to red (each separated by one drop). Do I take my measurement when it goes from clear to pink or do I add another drop to make it properly red?
Keep adding drops until the last drop added produces no additional change and then don't count that last drop. In other other words, you've added 7 drops and it's red, You add one more drop for a total of 8 drops and the red stays the same, Don't count the last drop, you reached your endpoint at 7 drops.
On 9/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, ColoradoJohn said:Does temperature affect of the chemical readings? I only heat my (wood fired) tub when I want to use it.
depends on the test, Testing should really be done with room temperature samples so if you are testing before heating and it's not freezing cold you are good. If the water is cold bring the sample indoors until it reaches room temp. and then test.
On 9/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, ColoradoJohn said:How many days can I spend adjusting pH and TA before I have to sanitize? In other words, is it okay if it takes me 4 days before getting TA and pH adjusted so that I can proceed to the next steps?
You can adjust TA with sanitizer in the water as long as it's not at shock level. With Taylor reagents sanitizer should be below 10 ppm, with Pentair reagents 5 ppm.
On 9/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, ColoradoJohn said:Borates = Borax? (at least for this purpose)
borax (soidum teteaborate decahydrate) , sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, or boric acid. Both penahydrate forms will raise pH so need acid (either muriatic or dry) added to maintain the pH in proper range. Boric acid will slightly lower pH (which quickly goes back to where it was with some aeration. As long as your pH is above 7.4 the slight lowering can be ignored.) Boric acid is more expensive than borax but still less expense than the commercial pentahydrate products like, Supreme and Optimizer. Gentle Spa, Supreme Plus, and Optmizer Plua are mixture sof boric acid and pentahydratre to make a pH neutral product. My recommendation is boric acid. Easy to dose, pH change is minimal, and price is reasonable.
On 9/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, ColoradoJohn said:Is the dichlor/bleach method perfectly adapted for cedar tubs is there anything I need to do differently?
Not that I am aware of but I am by no means an expert on Cedar tubs.
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On 9/6/2022 at 3:34 PM, denrayr said:
Is that 10ppm of bromine or chlorine?
bromine. Chlorine converts the bromide in the water into bromine sanitizer, You won't have chlorine, only bromine.
On 9/6/2022 at 3:34 PM, denrayr said:left the cover open for 2 hours Saturday and an hour each day after.
Leave the tub uncovered and circulating until sanitizer level has dropped.
On 9/6/2022 at 3:34 PM, denrayr said:Is it possible that shocking weekly is too frequent in my case
yes try cutting back to every two weeks or even monthly.
On 9/6/2022 at 3:34 PM, denrayr said:My bromine levels drift up throughout the week with my floater closed down all the way, and I have to pull it out
put fewer tablets in the floater. also not all floaters are created equal. Most don't maintain bromine levels very well. Get a Pentair floater, best one made, IMHO. Model 330 for 3" tablets, 335 for 1" tablets. Stay away from the 332. It is cheaper but does not allow for the same level of adjustments.
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Lowering TA can be done with either muriatic, sulfuric, or dry acid. Dry acid is sodium bisulfite and when dissolved in water forms sulfurous acid.
The procedure to lower TA is here:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
If you don't have jets it can still be done, it will just take longer. worst case, just get into the tub and splash. If you can rig a piece of PVC pipe with a right angle to your return so it shoots the water into the air and then falls back into the tub that will work. You want surface agitation to facilitate the outgassing of CO2.
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Because of the increased demand for lithium in lithium ion batteries it's become next to impossible to find these day, at least in the US and Canada. However, if I am not mistaken it is still available in Australia. I am optimistic that it will eventually return. In the meantime, sodium hypochlorite is the best substitute. The only advantage that lithium has over bleach is that it's a fast dissolving powder which some find easier to dose. It's main disadvantage is that it's always been the most expen$ive form of chlorine.
Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
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I've worked in the retail end of the pool/spa industry and the bottom line is that they stay in business by selling you products, many of which are not normally necessary. As long as your tub is having problems you keep going back for the next "Magic In A Bottle" that will cure all your ills. I agree that many (most?) are very unknowledgeable about water chemistry and just spout out "things that everyone knows (that aren't true)" such as walking acid to lower pH and slugging acid to lower TA (it doesn't work!) or "Our TA increaser is sodium hydrogen carbonate and not sodium bicarbonate or baking soda which is why it costs $5/lb." (sodium hydrogen carbonate is just another name for sodium bicarbonate or baking soda that you can buy at the grocery store for about 50 cents a pound and it's probably purer!) but they are usually just salespeople that have only had training from the manufacturers of the products they sell, if even that.