endorfin

I know this topic has been discussed a lot in the past. But I was wondering, how low do you need to drop the temperature for a pool floater to be effective (assuming chlorine sanitizer and need to leave for a week)? If you drop to 85 degrees, can you use trichlor floater to maintain FC and then just continue with bleach when you can?

Roger, I'm pretty sure most of us who are positive about Strong Spas are actually owners. We offer our opinions because we like the product and don't believe other potential owners should shy away based on misinformation. As far as I can tell, all of those who are critical (like you), are not owners. The question is why are you so critical when you haven't wet tested one and haven't repaired one? Although I'm glad to hear your count of "seen Strong spas" is increasing with every post - one in January, then three now five. So they must be selling very well. By the way, I find it hard to believe that Costco is taking 40% gross profit margin on these spas when their gross profit margin for all sales is 12.39%. The product is drop shipped with no inventory and no carrying cost. You are assuming a retail / dealer model for a "buying member club". Swine, I actually agree with some of your post. Before I purchased my spa, I called the factory and spoke to people about support - as I did with most brands I considered purchasing. The part of your post i consider to be BS - it seemed to me you were taking experiences with other manufacturers and attributing these generalizations to Strong. For example, you say when you call Strong with a complaint, then they frantically call everyone in the area to find somebody to help. This is not consistent with the experience that I, and other owners have had. There may be some places where Strong doesn't have as deep of coverage, but this is true for all manufacturers.

Swine - throwing a lot of BS out there - eh? Strong has been in business a long time and has an established network. Can you please point us to real customer complaints that align with your views? I doubt it. This is not a fly by night, upstart company and you shouldn't portray them as such. As a perimeter insulated spa with access panels all around, most diagnostics and repair are very easy. I did have an LED burn out on my Strong Spa. Took me a couple days to get the part from Strong and then 10 minutes to put it in by myself. For a similar problem on another brand spa, Roger suggested that the spa be drained, turned on its side, drill a hole in the bottom and then pick away the foam, and put in the new LED. In the end, that customer decided to just live with their brand new spa with a burned out LED. Too bad they didn't buy a Strong spa. Roger is also now trying to make it sound like a design flaw because some new Strong owners got a vapor lock on the first fill. This is because Strong, just like Caldera, Sundance and most other manufacturers recommend you fill through the filter return pipe. And in their excitement, many new owners drop the hose in the bottom of the tub and end up with air in the lines. This is not a design flaw, it is standard for the industry. The apparent reason why repair techs like Roger do not like Strong Spas - most likely because they don't make much money on them. Consider this, if Strong Spas were so bad that they failed all the time... and Strong was scrambling to find repair techs... then wouldn't people like Roger and Swine be happier? But for some reason, they keep coming here and bashing.

Roger, just curious - have you ever wet tested a Strong Spa? Have you ever repaired a Strong Spa? If yes, what specific issues did you work on? What exactly is it about the plumbing that you believe is a problem? Why are you now saying there is a drain / fill issue?

The Key West has about the same number of hydro jets as the Evo Magnum. I own the Magnum and we are satisfied with the jet pressure - and it has 2 hydro pumps instead of one. Otherwise, they have the same seating layout. Using this as a guide, if you expect the tub to generally be used by one or two people, you may be just fine with the Key West by closing half the jets. In our case, we generally use the lounger and one of the captains chairs at the same time which forces us to run both pumps (since they are different zones). I went with the Magnum because I felt like we needed 2 pumps. And we definitely did the first 3 months of ownership (when it seemed like there was always 3 or 4 of us in the tub at the same time). Over time, usage drops and now it's usually just 1 or 2 of us at a time - and for that, I believe one pump is sufficient.

Is this first fill or refill? If first fill, then also make sure the gate valves are open (the T handles). Then bleed the highest union which should be the input at pump center. Fill through the filter in the future should prevent the problem. This is from the strong manual: Upon startup, the pump(s) may sound sluggish and the flow from the jets will be minimal, this indicates you have an air lock in the pump(s). To release the air from the pump(s), simply open the highest union (or upper union) to release the air trapped in the water lines, or gently, using a 17mm or 18mm wrench (varies on pump size) slowly loosen the black plastic hex head bolt in front of pump. You will hear air being pushed out the union or bolt, once the air stops and water starts to come out, the pump(s) will pick up speed and the jets flow will increase. Carefully tighten the union or bolt until the water does not leak from the union or bolt. Be careful not to overtighten the black hex head bolt this may cause the bolt to strip or you may pinch the gasket. Strong recommends that you loosen the upper union to relieve the air from the lines since this method lessens the chance of stripping the hex bolts.

Maybe you can plan ahead like DK117. When the delivery arrived for me, I asked if they could just offload the tub onto a trailer for $20 and they wouldn't do it. But they offered to move it to the right spot for me for $100. I had the impression this is pretty standard - they already have the plywood in the truck an just used the hand jack. In my case there were 2 people when they delivered to me - driver and another worker. The spa is delivered on one side and it weighs like 900 pounds so you will need additional help to move it into place. My final spot wasn't ready yet so I had some landscapers help me move it into place when ready.

Did you happen to use Spa Sentry from Spa Guard in your water? I had a problem that was similar that I attribute it to using Spa Sentry. Besides being a ph buffer, spa sentry also is a calcium and magnesium reducer. It came with a chemical starter kit. The symptom was the formation of whitish, rubbery clumps (sticking to the filter or chest hairs, whichever it contacted first). I refilled and switched to the dichlor, bleach, borates method and haven't had the problem since. This is from Spa Guard: "Spa Sentry will react with and drop out all virtually calcium and magnesium present in the water, which may cloud the water temporarily. This is normal and most of it will be removed by the filter. The “white goop” on your filter is normal and will rinse off easily."

it does not get a chance to gas off. I was looking for a more technical explanation. I assume the chemical reaction that oxidizes the combined chlorine still occurs, or is it that this cannot happen without the aeration? And if it doesn't happen without aeration, will the applied MPS be activated at a later time when aeration is applied or is it a "use it or lose it" kind of scenario.

No, i assure you that it was posted and then deleted. The rest of the post that was deleted said something like this (I can't remember exactly) Last year two spas were distributed through Mr. G's / Toll Barn. At least one of these was 8-12 years old according to Hillbilly. Even if both of these were Costco spas, this means that Costco stands behind their warranty. I don't know why you are calling out Costco in the heading when you go on to say this: "I know the tubs we sell do not take most of the tubs back if they are returns for issues - they try to sell them to dealers for pennies on the dollar and have us refurb and sell them."

Moderator, please do not delete my post again. For those who may have missed it, I called Mr Gs (Toll Barn) in Walpole. I said i was in the market for a cheap tub and heard they sold refurbed tubs. The owner told me that it is a, "hit or miss item and they only had 2 for sale all of last year." I asked what brand and they didn't know. The clarification above says the tub in question was an 8 year old tub that was returned. So even if it was a Costco tub, this only proves that they stand behind their product. I am a consumer and a purchaser of a Costco tub (Evolution / Strong). I am not a dealer / moderator who deletes postings I do not like.

Hey Waterbear, related question - what exactly happens if you don't aerate for 30 minutes after adding MPS? I know the aeration will increase PH but else is going on? Thanks.

Yes, I'm happy with our Magnum tub. But I'm not happy with our electricity use. Have been running around $100 more per month in the colder weather - Worcester, MA area - probably around 20 F average. Our electric rate is 16 cents per Kwh. Our tub is used by a family of 4 (including two teenagers) and we still use the tub every day - sometimes more than one per day as we're in at different times. We also have an electric hot water heater and along with lots of soaking comes more showers (and my kids don't come out of the shower until the water runs cold). So I'm not sure how much of the increase is directly from the tub.

So hillbilly, how exactly does a properly wired spa blow out a transformer without tripping the breaker or shorting at the disconnect? Also, can you humor us and point us in the direction of one of those discount centers? Maybe a name or something? Exactly what model Costco tub was it? And also curious, how do you know it was a Costco tub?

Dave, I own the Evolution spa from Strong / Costco. The warranty is shorter because they offer it through Costco at a reduced price. It is exactly the same components as the Strong spa and the same support - which has been excellent. As you read through all the postings on Evolution and Strong, what you will discover is that most owners of Evolution Spas are very happy and those who are the most critical are dealers and service people (who have never seen or worked on a Strong spa). Go figure. As far as support, I think it is a fair question to ask Evolution (Strong) as to how you would receive local support if you do need warranty support, or out of warrant support for that matter. In fact, that is a fair question for all manufacturers directly, not the local dealer. I'm sure if you call them, you will find them to be very helpful. The rotational molded exterior is very durable and I believe has a lifetime warranty. I actually looked at the models at a Strong dealer - and i was willing to spend more money to buy it direct from them (with the longer warranty), but we couldn't strike a deal. I went with the Crestwood finish. I agree with DK117 - check out the other thread. Good luck.

Thanks ChemGeek. I realized from your post and links that we have higher than average chlorine demand. Our tub is 400 gal and is used by a family of 4. Almost daily somebody is in the tub and often all 4 of us. With an ozonator and heavy bather load, dichlor alone was not working out well. My ph was always low and I was concerned with the CYA buildup (although my friends with hot tubs didn't know what i was talking about). So if we were just using the spa once a week, then dichlor may worked out just fine. Anyway, since adding Borax balanced with muriatic acid, everything has stayed pretty stable with just bleach for chlorine and MPS weekly. I expected to require more acid periodically but so far this has not been necessary.

Richard, I admit "conspiracy" was overly dramatic. But are you saying that CYA levels approaching 300 - 400 ppm are really not an issue? Because that's what I don't really understand - and that is what you will see in about 3 months using dichlor in a hot tub. Is the only risk really the sanitizer decrease in effectiveness which leads to algae growth? What do the experts on this board think? Does CYA matter enough to be proactive in keeping it low? or as long as you change your water every 3 months, is it less trouble than benefit in maintaining this at 30-50 ppm?

So here is a fairly typical example of a new spa owner unfamiliar with water chemistry that decides to use chlorine as a sanitizer. I'm not talking about those that come to PoolSpaForum, but instead those who rely on their trustworthy local dealer to give advice. - Dealer sells a starter kit of chemicals - Kit includes dichlor (granular chlorine stabilized with CYA) - Kit includes special "PH Increaser" - Kit NEVER includes a PH decreaser (of course you will never need this if you just use dichlor) - The kit often does not include an oxidizer like MPS So the new spa owner adds dichlor after each soak. Maybe they were also advised to "shock" once a week and use the dichlor for this too. They bring a water sample in (or use the strips) and discover they have low ph and low alk. So they add alk increaser and ph increaser. And thus goes the vicious cycle. Add dichlor - CYA drops ph and alk. Add more ph and alk. And that is the conspiracy. If you use dichlor every week, in about 3 months you will have a CYA reading that exceeds 300 ppm. And the advice from spa calculators is that if CYA is over 100, you should drain and refill. This means if you use dichlor as your primary sanitizer, you will need to refill your spa EVERY MONTH. While everyone would sell more chemicals (dealers and manufacturers), they also know the customers won't accept this advice. So instead, they completely ignore the CYA level in their water test. This way, their customers will keep buying dichlor, ph increaser and alk increaser. (of course, those that come here know they can use soda ash, baking soda, household bleach, etc. - but how many dealers say you should take a look at poolspaforum.com and save money)

I was confused by the model until i realized the link is for Costco Canada and they have different names. Prices are higher too. I have the Magnum (90 jets) from Costco.com (USA). The Magnum is derived from the Madrid and the Centurion looks like it is too. The components, shell and enclosure are exactly the same. The difference is in the configuration (jets and air system), and warranty. The Magnum and the Centurion have the vector air system. This is essentially a series of air only jets. In the Magnum, there are 15 of these meaning there are 70 jets fed by the two water pumps. We bought this model simply because we wanted two water pumps and a lounger. The air jets don't really add much for us. The Centurion has 17 air jets. This vector air system is not to be confused with the air controls that inject air into the water jets. This increases the power of these jets substantially and come standard with all the Strong / Evolution spas. One complaint with the Evolution / strong spas is that the shoulder jets are on the weak side. I'm convinced this is because they are not connected to the air supplies which would improve their efficiency and power to match the other jets. I'm going to test this by reconfiguring one of the shoulder jets when the weather warms up.

These companies were started by the same person / group. No they aren't the same company (technically that's the whole point of chapter 11 protection) - and so yes, that would raise questions about the warranty. They do use Balboa controls, I don't know about the pumps, insulation, etc.

Actually what i suggest is that you read the Hot Topics 3 and 4 at the top of this board. Nitro's approach Dichlor / Bleach method in a nut shell Then come back with questions.

I personally agree Footie regarding using test kit over test strips. I tend to use test strips periodically during the week for spot checking and then have do a more thorough test with the kit on weekends. In comparing kit and strips and I've found the chlorine / bromine indicator to be consistent and easy to read (the others - alkalinity and PH - tend to only be easy to read if you are in the test range). I know there can be bleach out situations but the chlorine indicator is pretty reliable and easy to maintain. If not enough, add some. Too much - wait or add hydrogen peroxide. The other water chemistry items are not as straightforward to the newbie. The question asked was if there was any obvious problem to their regimen. When I talk to other hot tub owners (live, not on this board), I'm amazed at how many don't really have a clue as to what they are doing and why. And so while getting a test kit is clearly good advice, it may not be the right answer for everyone. But using dichlor continuously seems to be a consistent bad practice recommended by many spa dealers. The manufacturers of the dichlor usually promote the dichlor for shocking as well (because they want you to use more). Shocking with dichlor is only a good idea for the first couple of weeks to build CYA. What I've learned is that most people who prefer chlorine approach but are not interested in getting a test kit would benefit by: - Using the dichlor / bleach method - Using MPS weekly to oxidize combined chlorine This won't protect the equipment from ph, alkalinity and hardness issues, but it will generally address the sanitizer issue. Although ph will affect the sanitizer effectiveness, this is not nearly as profound as the impact of too much CYA.

Part of your posting doesn't make sense to me. I assume you are using dichlor as your sanitizer. You are apparently using test strips that can measure stabilizer, or CYA. If these are both true, then it isn't possible that you really have low stabilizer unless you just refilled. In that case, no big deal - your stabilizer (CYA) will reach the recommended level after a couple of weeks of dichlor use. It also seems like you are using dichlor to shock. As chlorine works, it turns into chloromines or combined chlorine. This is a minimally effective form of chlorine that turns the water into an eye irritant and is usually the culprit for excessive "chlorine smell". To get rid of combined chlorine, you need to shock it. If you shock with chlorine, you will need to add excessive amounts to oxidize the combined chlorine - which in turn will add excessive amounts of CYA. If you do shock with chlorine, it would be better to use common bleach (Clorox) which does not add CYA. For this reason, it is generally preferred to shock with MPS weekly which will oxidize the combined chlorine. And switch to chlorine bleach as your sanitizer (once the CYA base is established). Read the dichlor / bleach method in the pinned topics for more info.

In MA, I got two quotes from reputable, local electricians. One was 1,200 and the other was just under $700. This included moving some breakers on my main panel to allow for a double breaker. Then add the double breaker inside and the GFCI / disconnect outside. About 40' inside and 20' outside, plus connection to tub. Went with the low quote - happy. I did learn the actual panel you have can make a difference. Also, the wiring was pretty easy inside the house as it went through an unfinished part of the basement. Definitely worth getting more than one quote just to keep them honest (or at least let them know you are getting another quote even if you don't).

I agree the temp loss seems excessive. My tub dropped 10 degrees in 24 hours with outside temps between 10 and 20 F. If you have venturi air diverters and they were left open, this would accelerate heat loss while those jets were running, but still seems excessive.