arnspa

Harvey, We too are on a time of use billing with PG&E, and have a solar electric system. Our 240 volt, 50 amp system is all on one line. Because of the high amperage we used a 110 volt Intermatic timer to control a 240 volt, 50 amp conductor. You may wish to see the my Topic posted about how to get a timer for this. (Timer for 50 Amp Spa, 15 March 2010) This system cuts off everything to our spa during summer hours from 10am to 9pm. Ours is 1300 gallons, good cover, and the heat loss is 1-2 degrees. It seems you wish to avoid heating water during PG&E prime time. Smart, and yet I wonder if like us, you can avoid all electric during that prime time. You might put both lines on timers? Or combine them on one line? Here's a photo of our installation: NOTE: You wrote that the PG&E rate was 40 cents kWh? You may wish to check this. For us (Menlo Park, CA), the summer rates, Monday - Friday, are 29 cents kWh from 1pm to 7 pm, 14 cents from 10am-1pm and 7-9pm, and then 8 cents from 9pm to 10am. Of course we want to heat and filter in the cheapest hours. But also, in California, PG&E must credit us at the 29 cent rate when we are sending volts back to them during those sunshine hours. So we try not to use a minute of this that we might use at other hours. Our PG&E bill for last year was ZERO. As soon as I rewire our attic and add some insulation I expect they will be paying us. (As of January PG&E must pay us for any surplus we give them over the year.) My applause for you getting the solar system. Very smart!

The "value" of spending $5-7/watt for a solar system to offset heating costs of a spa is questionable. There are far more eco- (ane econo-)friendly ways to approach this, including solar water heating systems and/or geothermal heat pump technology. You are effectively taking thousands of dollars of silicon technology to turn photon energy into heat, when you could have more directly exploited the direct radiant heat from the sun (or that stored in the ground). It takes many, many months of $0 electric bills to offset the huge $$ invested in solar arrays. Something to ponder while sitting in your tub that is heated and filled for "free." $300 worth of spray foam, a good blanket and well made cover would go a long way on any tub no matter how poorly insulated. I haven't met very many "eco nuts" who knows what the NPV() function in Excel does.. Friend, There is much in what you say. In fact, we were shopping solar electric for our home before we bought the swim spa. The swim spa bumped up the size of solar system we thought we needed. We got 30 solar panels (5kw) and a contract that pro-rates our electric for 18 yrs at $1000 a yr. (Avoiding inflation and any PG&E rate increases) To paraphrase Tim O'Neill: All electric is local. We are on the San Francisco peninsula where climate is mild* and we have great rebates for solar. *(A little hard to say that this week when we have higher temps than Dallas!) For us, the question was merely whether we would add capacity to cover the spa. We did. But I see insulation as my next effort. And for many people it might be a first effort. Same for a solar water system. We have garage roof with good exposure close by the spa, but I don;t know how to judge the wisdom/economics of a solar system addition. (BTW: I was told by the vendor we got the spa from, not MasterSpa home, that cutting any pipes to add solar water would violate the warranty. Worth checking.) SO, Had we gone about it the other way, first insulate, then think solar water, we might have settled for a smaller solar electric system. We didn't. BUT, we do have incentive with PG&E to reduce our usage even though our bill is zero. IF insulation, etc, can lower our usage, PG&E will pay us for the surplus our system is ending back to them.

IYHO, there is a threat to cover durability from the inside. OK, but I also ask, IYHO, can I lengthen the life of my cover by occasionally rinsing off the inside/underside on my cover?

True, but wouldn't it be easier to just call a professional first? I'm not an electrician, but I am a professional. I too explain to people how to do the things I do, because I know I will get the business when they screw it up. Normally it costs less if they don't take a crack at it 1st. Case in point... you "saved" $300 cutting & patching... most professionals would have just gone underneath the sidewalk without cutting it... taking maybe 1/2 an hour. Even I have done that. Did you really "save" or did you just do it yourself so it is done, just not as well as an electrician would have done it? At the end of the day, do what you want. Myself, I have a buddy who is an electrician, so it normally costs me some amount of beer. Just don't find out the hard way why we have professionals. Jake dog, Why are you barking at me? 1) I say I DID have an electrician do MY job. (220 volt 50 amp) 2) I say IF you are going to DIY, do it to Code. 3) I say get an electrician's bid/advice. They can tell you how they would do it, and you may be able to negotiate a price, as I did.* I feel you are just blowing the "Pay Us" whistle. Suggesting DIYs are likely to screw it up. They may do that but they don't have to. Even you seem to be breaking your own 'Leave it to the Pros' rule: You have an electrician friend who does WHAT for a few beers? Give advice, and then you do the job? My electrician friends don't buy and install circuit breakers, 80 feet of conduit, wire, ground rod, switch box, and plastic lead for a few beers. ALSO, you tell/suggest to others I didn't really save $300 by cutting and patching for conduit under a sidewalk. A "professional," you say, could have gone under the sidewalk in 30 minutes? Excuse Me. Three electricians bid on this job. Every one of them added cost for cutting and patching the sidewalk. See the pic below to see why. The sidewalk is between a brick wall and a 12" wysteria trunk. I'm sure these professionals would have liked to know how they could make that connection in 30 minutes. And you say I didn't make that patch as well as an electrician could have done it? Since when do we send our concrete work to electricians? Look at the pic, eat your hat, and stop talking out your ear, please. BTW: You didn't tell us what sort of "professional" you are. Moral: "Professionals" tell you what they know. That's why we shop. True professionals don't pretend to know what they don't, especially outside their specialty, and they don't use their professional standing to gloss mere opinion.

Hothead, It seems you've heard from the nervous nellies. Get an electrician they say. "If you need to ask..." That may be so. It may also be that you merely need to ask* an electrician, or consult the NEC Handbook. I did hire an electrician to wire our 240 volt 50 amp system, with a 50 ft conduit run, timer, switches, and 110 auxillary outlet. (Cost a bundle) But your situation MAY be one you can handle if you learn what the code requires. My own idea is that you should hardwire the tub with a GFCI switchbox at the Code prescribed distance from the tub. (OR with a GFCI breaker at the main panel and switchbox near the tub) The Code may also require a 110 outlet at this spot, for auxillary use. (They don't want you running an extension cord from the house to power your boom box or lights) It may also be wise to have a ground rod at this spot. I don't know why you would want to be able to unplug your tub, unless you want to move it. Whether you do it or have an electrician do it, your main concern should be that you protect your family and guests. I must add that I recently saw a small hot tub standing on end behind a rental condo in the mountains. Just move it where you want it, fill it up, plug it in to an extension cord. May not be too smart. *"Ask an electrician": One way to ask an electrician is to ask for an estimate/bid. You may know an electrician who may be quite happy to tell you what you need an at what cost he/she will supply it. Good service professionals know that even if you do not hire them today, you may call them back tomorrow. You may also be able to negotiate price. I cut and patched a sidewalk for conduit to go under, cutting a bill $300.

Folks, We've got people talking of deterioration of the outside of the cover, due to UV, heat, snow, bird poop, etc, and others concerned for deterioration of the inside of the cover due to chemicals in the spa. I'm new to this game, and the problem for outside deterioration is obvious for me. But what of the inside deterioration? Is this a real concern? Can the inside degrade before the outside? And is there a remedy for this? IF it is a problem, can I just hose off the inside occasionally? Or is it really nothing to worry about? (My cover is 8 x 12 ft. I probably can't buy one of those for $300)

So your 1300 gallon Master Spa made your electric bill triple huh? I'm not suprised. That's what happens around here also. I am in Northern Minnesota and a lot smaller tub than that from Master will do that. SO, Roger, what company do you represent? As suggested earlier in this thread, it's difficult to assess how valid are off-the-wall claims about this brand or that brand, especially by people who look like they may be in the business. Have there been any independent studies of electric usage by different spa brands? If YES, please cite them for us. If NO, your statements about MasterSpas look like propaganda? What are the cheaper to operate spas, and where's the data? [ADDED: On re-reading Roger's post, it seems he may have only been speaking of a tub the size of mine, and not of the brand. My apology if I misread his comment!]

What are you treating that cover with? Ours is 2 yrs old and I recently treated it with 303 UV protectant. I was much impressed and unhappy that I didn't start earlier. We live in a moderate climate, but if you've got a cold freeze or high summer heat that vinyl needs frequent protection. (No, I don't sell it)

Wait Please! WHAT are we talking about here? There are MasterSpas that hold 200 gallons, there are MasterSpas that hold 2,500 gallons. ALSO, where do you live? People who want to damn ALL MasterSpas anywhere very much invite the question "WHAT company do you represent?" We have a H2X Crosstrainer2, 1300 gallons in Menlo Park, CA 94025. Yes, we bought it at the county fairgrounds two years ago. Yes, these guys reminded me of bible salesmen. But YES, we got a good deal, and have not had a minute's complaint about the swimspa. (This thing can host a dozen people) Elsewhere here I've detailed how we've installed an industrial timer to turn off the spa for 11 hours a day (we are on a time of use electric billing system). At most the spa loses one degree when it's off for 11 hours. If we go away and turn it off for a week it goes from 100 to 92. I can't fault the insulation one bit. And I think the cover is great. (Still, being an eco-nut*, I'm wondering if I can add some insulation all the same.) WHATEVER complaint 'whosdat' has about MasterSpas, he doesn't know our situation. OF COURSE, I can't guarantee that Alaskans would have the same experience. *"eco-nut" could be someone who has 30R in the attic where the temp bottoms at 28 dF winters, 90 dF summers, and has over 50 rainbarrels** and a 5 kW solar system***? **Yes, we fill the tub twice yearly from the rain barrels, the rest is for the fruit trees. *** Our electric bill this year was zero. For the cover: I recently applied 303 AV stuff to clean and renew the vinyl. I am much impressed. AGAIN: You want to talk electric bill, you want to talk insulation? PLEASE tell us how many gallons you are talking, tell us where you live, tell us what electric you are paying. Prime time on our billing is 29 cents kWh, 8 cents at night. My father-in-law on the TVA pays only 4 cents. What cost him $20 could cost me $145. BTW: BIG is big. When we first got our spa our electric usage doubled, and our bill tripled. And so we got the solar panels and the timer. Now we pay zero. You can't hold 1300 gallons at 100 dF and pay $20 a month. But insulation is not THE problem or solution for that.

One way to get your spa on an energy saving schedule is to add your own timer. In another post I showed the photo above. It's a timer, controlled by 110 power, used to control the 220 volt, 50 amp contactor. In Summer it's important for us to turn off the power during the day, as we're on a Time Of Use billing cycle. Power from 1-7 pm, because of demand for AC, costs 3 1/2 times what it does at night. We selected Time of Use billing because that allows us to get maximum credit for the solar power we're sending back to them during the day. So we heat the tub at night, and we've noticed very little temperature drop during the day. In winter it's always the cheaper rate, except for 5-8 pm when it goes up 75%. Even with a 1300 gallon spa, our electric bill this year was zero, using the solar and the timer. The Time of Use billing makes the timer imperative, but even without solar it makes sense. Programmable thermostats for the house are timers governing when you heat the house. And they save money. A timer for the spa can do the same. The box on left houses a 24 hr Intermatic 110 volt timer, the box on right a Schneider contactor, 220 volt, 50 amp. Link to earlier Thread:http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24090&pid=102988&start=&st=#entry102988

ANALOGY: This question seems resolved for heating the house. Programmable thermostats that turn the heat down at night really can reduce electric use.

Thanks, Soaker, you are exactly right. I've edited my post with photo above.

You might want to consult a garden forum for bird advice. Don't tell my neighbors but I've had some luck at trapping them -- to keep them away from the fruit trees, I've no problem at the spa. But let me ask: Do you also have bird feeders? My good friend complains about the birds and squirrels raiding her cherries, plums and persimmons, but also keeps at least three large feeders. At my housew we don't have enough of a problem to warrant pellet guns, but it would be tempting if local ordinance permitted it.

Shaamus, Please read above. I don't really understand your comment. No I wasn't looking for the microban filter.

Not on your garden! I see you were skeptical about these claims, but there's other folks on the forum saying it's OK to drain to gardens. See my post on "Is Spa Water Really Safe for Gardens." I learned the hard way that you can readily kill sensitive plants and trees with the high salt content of spa water. I bought a TDS tester (Total Dissolved Solids, $20) and searched agriculture sites AFTER getting what was bum advice here. The drip lines I used spa water in to for lemon trees were showing salt residue and two new avocado died. The ag sites then told me that avocado and lemon were the most sensitive trees to salt. Palms less so. Natch! When in doubt, throw it out. Maybe you can use it to flush your toilets?

Happy with H2X Crosstrainer 2: We bought ours 20 months ago, have had zero problems and are very happy with it. Note that this is their smallest model, 12 x 8 ft., 1300 gals. It has swim jets at one end, spa seats at the other. (Their larger swim spas have a propeller system rather than jets. Like you my wife wanted an Extended Pool for years. When we saw the MS H2X she wanted to try it and was well please with swim. She still swims occasionally but one or both of us is in it for the hot tub almost every day. We've had up to a dozen adults in it at patio parties, though it's usually just us two. At first it doubled our electric use and tripled our bill (We were on tiered billing with PG&E). In July last year we got a 5 kW solar system. We are now on Time of Use billing with PG&E and expect to pay nothing, zero, zilch when we have our 'true-up' bill for the year. That is, we've not paid them anything since last summer and expect to pay them nothing ever again, In fact they may have to pay us a little. I had a timer installed so the spa never heats and filters at 'Peak Time'. Even if the spa is off for 10 hours, the temp falls maybe one-two degrees. (We usually have it at 101). I judge this to be very good insulation and cover. (Yes, I acknowledge to those in Calgary that in Menlo Park, CA we are surprised when winter temps go below 32. But we have cool nights, 45 degrees, in Spring and Fall when those 'cold' winter spots are in the 60s or higher at night.) I can't comment on dealer service since we've needed none. But I do think it might have been better to buy through a dealer who was going to offer maintenance than through the 'fairground' spa show approach. In any case, I think one should be prepared to bargain price. These are as expensive as autos. Few of us would pay the asking price, including all the incidentals (heater, radio, delivery, undercoat) for a car, don't do it for a spa. And since there are lately more dealers offering something like these swim spas you can get them to compete. Though that's not a reason to take the cheapest. About chems: I've lately come to the idea that these very large tubs are much easier to manage than the much smaller ones.

For easier photo download I've gone to Photobucket (Free if you can get by all the Please Buy options). Here's a photo of the new boxes on a block wall/fence near the spa. We have a 240 volt 50 amp service that comes through the block wall into the square box at right. It houses a 50 amp Schneider contactor which is controlled by an Intermatic 110 volt timer in the box at left. The timer has two 'pegs' that allow you to time when the unit will go on and off. (You can get more pegs if you want it to cycle more than once in 24 hrs). The arm below the yellow dial is a manual off/on switch. The small box below the square box houses a 120 outlet. Note that the whole idea of this set up is that 50 amps is a LOT of current, it's not like a 15 amp switch in your house (which often carries only 3 amps). You need a Superswitch to control 50 amps. But to turn that Superswitch on/off you only need a 120 timer. Again, we are using this timer set up because with our solar electric system on Time of Use billing, electric power costs 8 cents at night, and 29 cents at summer Peak time, 1-7pm. In our situation we will recoup the costs of this timer in no time. Also, if you're not an electrician, you should probably let an electrician do this for you. Because this lead is near 80 feet from our main service panel, I asked my electrician to install a ground rod on the opposite side of the wall shown in this picture. In any case, Please Note that the white/neutral wire from your 240 system must not be connected to ground/earth/green wire at any place but the main service panel. (That's a gate at the left, and yes, I have already removed the red plastic inserts from our previous box here.) <img src="http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac57/arnpics/spa%20timer/IMG_1132.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Let's see, Newbie posts a Pool question on the Tub and Spa forum instead of on the Pool forum, and slow60 replies that his jets are still not working. I suggest that Newbie re-post at the Pool forum (maybe this site should be called the Pool OR Spa Forum?), and also ask a few local contractors, or even neighbors. I would think there would be GREAT differences between pool prices built on hillsides in Portola Valley, CA (on the San Andreas fault and tough zoning), and those in central Florida (flat sandy, lax zoning) or western Wyoming where it goes to 40 below in winter and 110 in summer, and it's 100 miles to a pool contractor.

DK117 Even though this is a friend I would get things in writing and if you go for the $5k price I might include something like "the final $500 will be held aside until the spa is hooked up and shown to be in full working order". Spas don't always like to be moved, even newer ones like this. Be prepared ahead of time in case something does not operate properly when you fire it back up. You think $500 might cover any problems? I would say ALL should be held until it's working. Wouldn't any 'friend' agree to that?

LL, We have a Nordic Track Skier my has wife's not used in 8 yrs. They sell for $800 today. Because she paid a friend $500, (and I renewed the vinyl hip pad and drawcords) she thinks it's worth $300. It's not. I couldn't sell it on Craigslist for$100. And Goodwill won't even take it. You may be looking at the other end of a 'sweetheart' deal. (My wife could have got it a lot cheaper at a yard sale than from a friend!) The NEW price may be no clue to used value. Are there spa appraisers out there? You should at least shop around. Unless that is, that you been over to your pals' for years sucking up their liquor, BBQ, tub expenses, camaraderie and you're happy to help pay their moving costs.

OOPS! SORRY, I did not know that was how snapfish worked! Thanks for clueing me in! HOW does one post the photos direct? (as I've seen you do) I guess snapfish just assumes you'll be wanting photos of my new timer on a coffee mug!

Here it is! I attach a link to 3 photos at snapfish with captions to explain. I believe this timer set up will be a money saver for us, allowing us to switch the spa off at 'peak hours' of the Time of Use billing schedule we're on with PG&E. (I do not recommend this installation for DIY novices. I was happy to have an electrician do it) http://www1.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/Al..._NAME=snapfish/ Note: Click on the photos individually to see the explanatory captions. The 'View Larger' feature is nice too. The captions don't show in the slideshow mode.

I'm not sure I understand your suggestion, but finding a safe timer for a 50 amp 240 service is part of my problem. Switching 50 amps on and off securely is quite different than what a wall switch does. My electrician agrees that what's needed is a 50 amp 240 'connector' controlled by a 100 timer. He's installing that soon. I'll try to attach a photo.

Sorry, Mikey, not to confuse, but by 'subpanel', I only meant the required service disconnect near the tub. YES, these quotes seemed high to me also. We had recently moved from Cincinnati where we knew several neighborhood plumbers. electricians, roofers. We also lived in an 1890 Queen Anne brick mansion built by the president of the Stockyard Bank, well maintained, which we couldn't sell for $300,000. When our realtor in Menlo Park saw it, she said she could sell it in 5 minutes for 2 million and in 3 weeks for 3m. Our same size city lot here (forget the house) is at least 4 times the value of that home in Cincinnati. We pay more in property taxes here than our mortgage cost in Cincinnati. I saw also the same surprising disparity when I got 3 bids for a 9' x 20' concrete pad for the spa. The cheapest was twice what I could expect to pay in Cincinnati, and the highest was twice the cheapest. My guess is that the recession has hurt here less than many other areas. There's still new building and remodeling going strong, plus a boom in solar electric. Location.......(I want to forget the rest) Our 'after purchase' costs for our MasterSpa H2X were close to $5 thousand (electric, concrete pad, fence, steps etc). Anyone thinking spa should investigate such 'incidentals' And in some neighborhoods it will be much more than others.

John, Are you talking about the older Endless 'in ground' swimmer units, or their newer 'above ground' units with spa seats? I gather it's these newer untis that are meant to compete with the MasterSpas 2Hx. I don't know what the comparative prices are.