wylekioti

I am looking to purchase a spa. While shopping, I asked the Jacuzzi salesman if the jets could be upgraded (Jacuzzi does have some of the kinds of jets you are talking about in some of the models). He called the factory and then told me they do not recomend this, but it can be done, but they would not stand behind the shell because it was not tested with these jets. Just what I was told. I would see your dealer if the jets are what you are looking for. Our dealer has a display of the various jets Jacuzzi makes.

Nice pictures! Gratz on the tub. But on the insulation, hmmm. I looked at Jacuzzi and the salesman pulled back the skirting on one tub enough to see the insulation and I think it was in the 200 series. I thought it was full foam (not just an inch or two of sprayed on) with added wrap. hmmmm. Although without removing the wrap, which he may have added, I could not see the foam on the tub. Personally, I would think in your climate area, adding insulation would make running costs more tollerable. I do not want to make you sour on your new tub, but the amount of insulation I see from the picture looks as if they intended that tub to be sold in a warm climate. Or forgot to put the rest of the insulation in that I saw at our dealer. But I am a shopper and not an expert on Jacuzzi, just know what I saw when I was looking at them. Question to the experts. Can they call this Full Foam insulation?

Warning. If the capacitor blows again, there is something wrong in the motor. When the motor stalls, this can blow the capacitor. Not being able to see what you are seeing, makes it hard to really understand what happened. But, it sounded like the motor stalled and that would have damaged the capacitor, not the capacitor failing causing the motor to not start. Wonder if you could have gotten warrenty? but now that you opened it up.. that may not be an option now. Good Luck!

I have a temp probe that would work for this, but it is not inexpensive, was part of a $500+ multimeter kit. Could a person find one of those old style indoor/outdoor thermometers with the remote bulb and drop it in the water or did those go away with electronic thermometers? I do agree this would be interesting if people would be willing and honest and show what they find for different brands of tubs. The problem is going to be the ambient temp would need to be constant and mother nature does not always play that game. Especially when the test will take hours.... Unless it is a cheep tub Some other information that should be included with the results I would think would be: How is it located? (next to house on one side, out in open), What is it sitting on (wood, concrete, pavers, etc.), extra added insulation (blanket, wrap, full foam 25' in all directions ) and cover type (OEM, Deluxe, Tarp, etc.) Then maybe someone like Tom can chart the mess and we will have some usefull information for the folks that didn't have a clue what most of this post was about. I know... I forgot about KISS "the golden rule." sorry

Ok. So back to the original posting. As I think all everyone is trying to say with all installations. Assuming the tub is well insulated, a quality cover will be benificial in operating cost. Many covers from what I understand become saturated with water over time and lose the insulation factor and thus must be replaced every few years. Some one must have upgraded to a better cover and have some idea on the cost to heat difference. Seeing covers being of different thickness and matterial available from manufacturers to aftermarket. I also assume, that like most items sold, there are high quality and low quality covers that look identical. I have read posts where controllers may look the same but are of lesser quality.. etc.. I worked in the automotive industry where there are many cases of identical items but they are not equal. You don't think the Autolite Spark Plug from Kmart is equal to one you buy at quality auto part supplier, even though they look identical in every way. Do you think GMC = Chev pickup? But I have been out of the industry for some time and now with all the outsourcing... who knows. Last I knew, GM pickup V8 engines were made in Korea..... I was just trying to point out that for an extra few bucks, difference in price of covers, it would be well worth that upgrade unless you live in a warm to hot climate or have free electricity. I would like to say, I have to wonder about the quality of the insulation in the spa if the manufacturer does not offer a high quality cover. Seems they should go hand in hand. Not trying to ruffle feathers... even though they have a low thermal conductivity.

Ok, that didn't last long. I would like to know one thing about FF spas, I am looking at some of those too. The tempurature where I live varies between the low teens (F) for a week or two to over 100 (F) in the summer. During these cold times where we might have a few months around freezing, when the pumps are not insulated and are "vented" to the out side air, what protects these expensive components from freezing up?

Uh, well, no.... Concrete has an insulation value of about 0.2 per inch which ain't gonna keep you warm on a cold winter night. When you're camping, you'll stay a lot warmer on a pad of closed-cell foam than you will on bare ground or a concrete pad. Boy Scouts of America used to advise three layers of insulation under you for each layer over you for winter camping (may not be current with improvements in sleeping bag technology). Cold ground is a giant heat sink that sucks heat down. Cool climate spas need insulation on the bottom (however it's done) Ok, I did do some research, because I am not an expert on concrete or its properties. It is not an insulation, but it has a High Thermal Mass which compaired to many substances does not allow heat to travel through it quickly. It tends to store heat. Heat moves through it very very slowly. Here are some examples of the Thermal Conductivity of various substances for comparison: Copper 918 Gold 700 Aluminum 480 Dry sand 0.86 Wood, fir. with grain 0.30 Wood, fir, cross grain 0.09 Portland Cement 0.17 (expressed in: gram-calories/second/cmXcm/cm/degree C) (its what they said on the chart) So, as compaired to a heat conductor like metals, concrete is a very poor conductor of heat. Isn't that what the purpose of insulation is? Although it is not an "insulator", heat transfer is extreemly slow. We better notify the city that the building code which requires concrete block between a wood stove and studs that concrete will not insulate the studs from the heat of the wood stove. I am not a spa salesman, I am shopping for a spa and found this forum, getting answers to some questions and trying to help answer some from my own experience and knowledge. PS: Just got a spa broucher which claims: "industry's finest research and development engineers" and later in the reading you find: "Since heat rises, the cover is a critical component" should I be quiet now?

Uh, well, no.... Concrete has an insulation value of about 0.2 per inch which ain't gonna keep you warm on a cold winter night. When you're camping, you'll stay a lot warmer on a pad of closed-cell foam than you will on bare ground or a concrete pad. Boy Scouts of America used to advise three layers of insulation under you for each layer over you for winter camping (may not be current with improvements in sleeping bag technology). Cold ground is a giant heat sink that sucks heat down. Cool climate spas need insulation on the bottom (however it's done) Ok, so I worded that poorly. Yes you are right Tom. For that kind of heat transfer that you are talking about, the shell would have to sit on the concrete. I dont think spa manufacturers do that. Dirt, however, has been used as an insulation. See: Root Cellars. As I said the larger the difference in temp.. the faster the heat transfer.. so on Cold ground.... but we are not talking about camping. (we could go into where your body hits the ground due to weight makes better contact increasing heat transfer over the parts that are touching the ground without the contact pressure) Going back to an earlier post about loosing heat from your body without proper clothing. Water (sweat) and air is what keeps your body cool. Put a fan blowing on you and you get cooler. This is what happens with water to air heat transfer just like you have in your spa, thus the need for a good cover to help hold heat in. My point was just (to avoid the argument of what is better way to insulate a spa) that if you are worried about cost of heating, a good cover vs poor cover, will do as much or more than the difference in insulation in most name brand spas. That is not to say there may not be a real looser or a far better insulated tub. But until all brands of spas are tested on equal ground with conditions that really test the insulation and tightness of the spa.. the world may never know.

Maybe more information would help. How old is the tub? Make? Model? For the real spa techs out there. Could they be parts dropped in a hose while tub was built? Do they look used? (not completely round but have flattened areas either inside and out; or top and bottom) If they look used, I would be looking for any sign of dampness to be sure. An o-ring will not, if installed correctly, wander off unless they break down, normally. Could they be part of someones swimsuit? If it is a newer tub and you could show them to the dealer and find out if they could be parts from the tub and where they are used. Or was your cover off for a period of time and a Raven gave you a present?

Ok, I saw this and feel I must throw in my 2 cents. Hot tubs and spas are filled with water and air which permit convection. Conduction rate of heat depends on the barrier material. Insulation is to inhibit both of these by slowing or stopping air movement within a material with low conductivity of heat. Air movement is the greatest source of removing heat from an object like a spa, house, your body (unless you jump into a frozen river but if your spa goes for a swim... ) Movement of a fluid increases heat transfer where there is a difference in tempurature. Convection creates movement in a fluid (liquid or gas). Simply, you are right, but, in a tub of water, convection will move the heat to the air over the water faster than the conduction of heat through the spa shell. The cover while in use, will, provide a barrier which if sealed will now use insulation to slow the heat loss from the convection in the air. In laymans terms, heat rises through convection in a fluid and that is what is in a spa. Note your insulation in your house, two times the R value is required above compaired to the sides. Many homes do not have insulation in the floor, they sit on dirt with a concrete slab which acts as insulation and so do alot of spas. Put a pan of water on the stove and watch the vapor take the heat away, now how close to the sides of the pot can you put your hand and feel the same heat that you feel one foot above. The heat coming off the sides goes in what direction eventually? UP? We ARE working with fluids. Convection matters. Air movement matters. Spa insulation makes a difference, but the cover is the most important aspect of retaining heat, then how the rest is insulated. If your spa could have a full foam R factor of 30 and if the cover leaks or is saturated with water, reducing the R value, what good is the ubber side insulation? The greater the tempurature differential, the greater the convetion. If you live where it is 100 degrees, you would not have the issue with loosing heat that a person who lives where it is 40. The bigger the temp difference, the faster the fluid movement through convection. The faster the fluid moves, the faster the heat can be transfered to the colder substance ( air, cover, shell, whatever) Yes, the shell needs insulation, tight cabinet, etc to prevent heat loss there but I have seen on this forum links to testing where full foam name brand spas have less than a R10 which is way less that what is required in home walls. One dealer I talked to, told me how well the spa was insulated (full foam and wrapped) and it came with a 2 inch thick cover and he had no idea what the R value was. What is the point of that?

I was not aware that Alaska used the Euro... Just kidding. I know it is the Yen. I am going to make a bold statement from my pricing of similar tubs and concidering fuel costs if those are the prices quoted delivered to you in Alaska, they are not too far off. (who do I contact to get my cut of the sale?)

This does not sound to me like the capacitor, on most electric motors the capacitor is used to start the motor and should not cause it to heat up once running and make it stop. This sounds more like bearing or thrust issue on shaft causing pole grounding (armature touching magnets or metal) in motor when under load or the armature is shorted. I would say it is time for a new pump assembly. Rebuilding might be an option but might not be as satisfactory or economical especially with the heat damage.

Use of a credit card means nothing. Sorry. Been in battle with Visa, who refunded cash for a returned item, then reinstalled the charges about 6 months later and refused to reconsider. So out the money and do not have the merchandise. Not a Spa but over $2000. Apparently, the merchant has final authority on if you get your money back. Very long story with lawyers, fraud (both merchant and Visa), Attorney Gen.. etc. Dont expect your credit card company to be on your side in refunding if the merchant doesnt want you to get it. If your card is handled through "FIA card services", Good Luck with getting profesional assistance with any credit card charge reversal, especially when they can reverse it later without prior notification and declare case closed without allowing any rebuttle, even though all terms for refund were met as per contract with card company!

To lounge or not to lounge, that is the question. I would not worry about kids fitting in, they and sit or play wherever. Get what is comfortable for the 2 of you that are using the tub to relax in. I myself like loungers because, if it is designed right, you can relax in it without bracing yourself against the jets of a seat. 2 cents worth.

First I have to say: "OUCH" that sucks! I am looking to buy a spa and went to the Marquis dealer yesterday and was very dissapointed, not by the spas, buy by the salesperson. They do not have a "spa" person there, he was from appliances in a store that shares the building with the spa business. After asking my questions, I decided this was not an option even though the product looks great. No wet testing. He told me it had a 130 hp pump. Cover was extra even though in the spec sheet it is part of the basic spa. He held up the starter chem bucket, which says "free with your new spa" in big letters and said this is $75. I asked him about getting different jets, and he did call and find out that it is an option but did not let me know how much extra that would be. They have only been in business for over a year and it sounds like they are trying to nickle and dime a few extra thousand into the sale. I dont have a lot of options here for dealers. Is Marquis worth the hastle of dealing with a dealer like this?

Not true, Roger. The big heavy pipes don't need much holding, but the lighter hoses are in spot-tacked in place. I can post some photos if you like. As a mechanical technician with a BS degree, I find Roger's point pointless. Pulsation in liquid in a hose can cause extreem pressure spiking and without some flex in the hose to absorb this, these stresses can pinpoint a weak spot and cause fracture and leakage. Foam insulation is not solid enough to stop all movement in a hose or it would result in premature failure at the fitting. What foam on the lines does do is help quiet the noise and make finding the point of a leak, if one occurs, more difficult and costly. So there are advantages and dissadvantages either way. Insulation holding the plumbing from moving is not even a valid argument for full foam insulation, if it did hold the plumbing solid, that would lead to failure of the manifolds, valves, jet housings and anywhere a flexhose is connected. The reason you see movement is because of these pressure changes and spiking, something has to give someplace to absorb that energy or it will over time break the weakest point. Even your house has pulsation dampners to prevent pipes from breaking just from the spike of presure caused by shutting off a faucet (unless it is really old and then you would hear a banging throughout your plumbing) Basic Hydraulics and Physics. So if we run with Roger's (sorry Roger) statement and knowing the reality of "solid plumbing" one would have to stay away from Full foam tubs to avoid continual leaks. Because foam can not hold plumbing solid, however, full foam works, you just can not see the movement. My 2 cents.

I am currious, the bonding grid according to your code quote is "under" the pavement, so if you are placing the tub on exsisting concrete that is not an option.. right? I know there are commercial supply dealers with large selection of various rubber mat products. Wet wood is also a good conductor so doubt that wood would pass. And if you are getting out of the tub and water flows across whatever you are standing on to ground, you could get a shock so a 3' mat will not absolutely protect you. Guess I don't understand, if the tub is grounded, exposed parts of the tub are not conductive, the only way to recieve a shock would be from the water to the pad, but the water is grounded in the pump at least via motor shaft. The tub runs on AC current which can not "Build up" a shock hazard, only DC or static electricity can do that. The minimal voltages in a spa of DC used in the control system would not be a health threat anymore than handling a flashlight battery unless a huge amount of amperage could be stored up which would mean the spa is acting like a capacitor. So if somehow the DC form the contol could get to the water and it could "build up", maybe get a shock. Faulty underwater lighting would seem to be the best source. But that is why there is ground fault breaker to the tub. Maybe we should all have a big LED display Voltmeter mounted showing voltage in the water vs. ground so we know if it is safe to get in or out of the water? Am I crazy? I realize water shock hazard is real, but I dont understand how bonding grid or matting is going to make it Safe if there is a problem. I am currious.

I am not yet a spa owner, but have been looking at options to buy. I would not even consider something like this especially if you already own a pool. ( Just add a couple shower stools and mount a leaf blower on the edge! ) Cost of running a motor to heat the water alone would be insane. I would bet that if anyone bought one of these, after the novelty wore off in a month, it would become a fish pond or planter box or some place to throw all the grass clippings. Save your money and if you want a spa, there are other 110v portables that have a heater that are less that getting a quality one. On this forum, the most important thing mentioned to do before buying a spa is wet test and I agree. If you buy one to find out you can not comfortably sit in it or the jets are annoying or whatever, the use of the spa becomes a reminder that you made a mistake. Not a good way to relax and enjoy!

I have to say from personal experience, trying the tub with water is so important before you buy! You would not buy a car without taking it for a drive to see how comfortable it is, how much power, how solid it feels, etc. Not sure how you can do this with Costco tubs. I have never seen one set up in the store running for everyone to try out next to the cheese and cracker samples. Considering the work involved in installing a tub anyway, why would you want to have a 800 lb. 8' x 8' x 4' item dropped at your curb? At least to me, if I am going to spend that kind of $$$, I want it delivered to where I need it. Buying from any Big Box Store, they are not there to sell spas, service is not what they offer, you get a product and they make a profit. I am not a spa dealer. I worked in the automotive industry for years building a reputation for quality personal service where I made a living by helping people when they had problems, doing the best work I could for the fairest price and took pride in that. I am empathetic to spa dealers that employ these morals and work hard to be helpful and would rather put food on their table than save a dollar and not have the support of a professional. Try before you buy.

Foot note to this vs my first post here: This spa sports the ozone system where the first one did not.

No feathers ruffled and sorry if I ruffled any. I am wanting to buy a spa that will be economical and efficient for years of use. I just would like to know what the facts are from people with experience with various filtering methods and overall costs. I did find another manufacturer who says water change every 6 months and uses the paper filter system and change the filters once a year with monthly cleaning. My question is still, if anyone could answer, how often do you change out the water with each of the filter systems? (Looking at main topic) In other words, how long to the Artic ppl run with a tub of water before draining vs. other filtering systems (paper, sock, grandma's nylons....) Do Artic owners find they really use less chemicals with this filter? Oh no.. could I have opened a new door about empty bottles for chemicals hitting landfills are higher for paper filter users? ACK! Sorry!

I agree with JJ1234 about wet testing. I am also looking for the best spa to fit me and need to be able to get in over the shoulders with a long torso. I have found some low hight spas that fit better than high ones just because of how the seats are contoured. However, leg room can start to be an issue with either, depending on foot well design. Some are easier to slide down out of the seat some to get water over the shoulders and still get jet action while some it is uncomfortable to do or even completely loose any feel of the jets. Recliner seats, depending on design, may allow more immersion than a sit up seat. But to know for sure if it will do what you want, don't look at hight of tub, look at the depth and feel of seats. Wet test before you buy! I tried the largest spa Jacuzzi makes and I could not get water near my shoulders except in recliner, yet I sat in a Coleman (dry) that I fit in under the shoulder jets that was much smaller and shorter spa. I tried the biggest Hot Springs and the water was about mid chest on me. So like they don't usually say; "Size doesn't matter" I am limited in this area as to the brands that I can try. As of yet I am still looking but have exhausted the dealers in town. I have been looking at brands on the internet that may fit me better and checking where the nearest dealer is, many are over 300 miles away. Service calls would suck! Good luck with your hunt.

From what I understand that you are asking, should be fine as long as you are water tight to the outside.

That is laughable and was probably written to sell more of the disposable type filters. You can go 4 months with no problem between refills with pleated filters and I go longer. Where did you read that? I'm with Steve, I hate to be part of the throw away society and pleated filters have worked well for years. Micro pure filters work fine too and some may say they filter better but to me they were designed first and foremost to sell more filters. I’m fine with that as long as the argument isn’t used that the pleated are substandard and they use scare tactics by saying you need to change the water monthly if you use pleated. Standard pleated filters work fine as well, cost much less and last much longer. Go with whichever you want, either will do the job fine. I guess I should have stated that this was an owners manual (found on line, at the company's web site) for a brand that uses a single paper filter and has no mention of any other filter design. It was just stating how to care for your new tub. This was not an ad for filter or pushing one design over another. The spa manufacturer was just telling that with this paper filter, you will need to change your water monthly because the filter does not remove all the contaminent from the water. What does your owners manual say if you have paper filters about the frequency of changing the water? Is it just this one brand ??(I dont want to bring in the name to protect the "sillyness" of this associated with this brand) From what I have seen, the components of the paper filter are not that biodegradable looking at the ends, however, I saw a micro-pure on the shelf and did not see the large silicon rubber ends on it, or whatever they are made of. As far as filling up landfills.. stop the manufacture of disposable diapers and plastic water bottles.. and things like that where true volume is insane. Automotive filters pose a much larger problem that a few spa filters, give me a break.

As far as pulling the switch. Only after you drain tub as per winterizing instructions. Things grow in stagnent water that are bad and freezing water bad, both not worth pulling power without fully draining. So if you are planning to be gone for a time, or can not afford the added cost in winter, drain and pull power. I am sure someone will say you can pull power for a week or whatever and then burn the chemicals to bring it back... change the filter, blah blah blah... how much did you save? (I know someone who plays this game)