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Replaster Pool - Jackhammer Or Sandblast?


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#1 GJJ

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 03:37 PM

We have delamination occurring in our pool. The top layer of plaster is coming off exposing the layer underneath...not gunite. The question is, do we jackhammer out all of the plaster all the way down to the gunite (one company's suggestion), or do we just sandblast off top layer and bondcoat (another company's suggestion). Company A says jackhammer best way...Company B says jackhammer is overkill for our problem and Company A is saying that because they don't have equipment to do both. Help. huh.gif

#2 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 06:01 PM

All loose plaster has to be removed. It is normally done with chip-hammers, not jackhammers. Until the pool is drained, it is almost impossible to tell how much plaster will need to be removed.

Possibly a diver could do a 3-D ultrasound survey of the plaster and provide a definitive answer, but short of that, I don't think that it's possible.

If the delaminated plaster is not removed, then any new plaster will just flake off with the old plaster layer.

If there is a lot of loose plaster, then the entire layer should come off. My best estimate is that at least the entire top layer should be removed. If the bottom layer is secure, then it can be left. Sometimes it is best to just plan to remove everything down to the gunite, just to be sure.

Whoever does the work needs to be prepared to remove as much of the bad plaster as necessary, and all of it if needed.

If the bottom layer of plaster is left, it needs to be sandblasted or acid washed. Then a bond coat goes on before the new plaster to ensure good adhesion.

If you strip all of the old plaster down to the gunite, then the gunite should be rough enough to not require sandblasting or bond coating.

Just curious, could you give us some idea of the estimated costs that you have been quoted?

You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#3 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 02:14 AM

Here is a good reference for new plaster specifications:

I would also include these specifications:

1) Workers will not use accelerants, such as calcium chloride, in the plaster mix.
2) Workers will only use certified "No-burn" trowels for trowelling the plaster.
3) Contractor will provide the new plaster with protection from direct sunlight and other sources of excessive heat.
4) Contractor will provide a way to keep all of the new plaster continuously wet while the pool is filling.
5) Contractor will be responsible for filling the pool, start-up and chemical balance.
6) Contractor will be responsible for pool maintenance for the first 30 days.
You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#4 GJJ

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE (quantumchromodynamics @ Jul 29 2009, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here is a good reference for new plaster specifications:

I would also include these specifications:

1) Workers will not use accelerants, such as calcium chloride, in the plaster mix.
2) Workers will only use certified "No-burn" trowels for trowelling the plaster.
3) Contractor will provide the new plaster with protection from direct sunlight and other sources of excessive heat.
4) Contractor will provide a way to keep all of the new plaster continuously wet while the pool is filling.
5) Contractor will be responsible for filling the pool, start-up and chemical balance.
6) Contractor will be responsible for pool maintenance for the first 30 days.

Thanks for the info...so here's the verdict:

Three companies say you must go down to gunite. Always. Bond coating is just a less labor-intensive process, so that's why people do it. One company says sandblasting top layer and bond coating is all that's necessary. Don't disturb the plaster that is originally bonded to gunite...that's your best seal. Other company agrees, but says it will have to be determined which method is best for our pool after supervisor evaluates pool. They have capability to do both and will determine that on the job. Price is the same. So here's the verdict on prices. We're going white plaster here mixed with quartz...I think these days, that's unanimous....mix plaster with 100% quartz and you have a stronger plaster by 5-10 years.

$4200 (just plaster...not including new "up to code" drain covers, trim tile, etc.) Down to gunite
$4750 Down to gunite
$5100 bond coat or gunite...whichever procedure needed

Don't have in front of me other two bids...somewhere in the vicinity.

No one offered to maintain pool for 30 days, and the warranties were anywhere from 5-10 years, 5 years being average, and only one company said they'd do chemicals for five days (and charge $450, by the way).

So, I guess my initial question stands...to jackhammer or not?


#5 Pool Clown

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE (GJJ @ Jul 31 2009, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One company says sandblasting top layer and bond coating is all that's necessary. Don't disturb the plaster that is originally bonded to gunite...that's your best seal.

I will agree with that. Our subs do it this way and have consistently good adhesion. Just make sure that they get all de-lams.

Other company agrees, but says it will have to be determined which method is best for our pool after supervisor evaluates pool. They have capability to do both and will determine that on the job. Price is the same.

I would pick this guy. Get the warranty in writing (actually, do that with who ever you go with). You should really change the covers to be to code, and more than that, to be safe. Before VGB, A good plaster co. would change the main drain covers anyway. Since VGB, covers are a little more expensive. maybe thats why the extra cost. Offer to buy them yourself and have him set them, that shouldn't incur an extra cost.

No one offered to maintain pool for 30 days, and the warranties were anywhere from 5-10 years, 5 years being average, and only one company said they'd do chemicals for five days (and charge $450, by the way).

No problem, When it gets filled, come back to this forum, and deal with Richard, (chem geek) He can guide you thru start up probably better than anyone you would pay.

So, I guess my initial question stands...to jackhammer or not?
If you have alot of de-lams jack it. if not sand/water blast. Let the plaster guy decide, then its his decision if there is a problem later (for warranty purposes).


Factory Warranty/Service for:
Jandy, Pentair, Sta-Rite, Raypak, Polaris,
and Paramount pool cleaning systems.


#6 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:32 PM

My primary reason for recommending that the plaster company do early maintenance and startup was liability.

If there is a problem with the plaster, the contractor will almost always blame poor maintenance and chemical balance. Having them do it would reduce that as an option for them if anything were to go wrong.

Be sure to carefully follow the contractor's advice, and document all maintenance and chemical related information.

Here is a link to the National plasterer's Council Find an Applicator in California page. Are any of the contractors members of the National plasterer's Council?

Their site has lots of good information and they are willing to answer questions. You should send some of your questions to them for their expert opinion.

You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#7 Pool Clown

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE (quantumchromodynamics @ Jul 29 2009, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here is a good reference for new plaster specifications:
Link is fried.
I would also include these specifications:

1) Workers will not use accelerants, such as calcium chloride, in the plaster mix.
2) Workers will only use certified "No-burn" trowels for trowelling the plaster.
3) Contractor will provide the new plaster with protection from direct sunlight and other sources of excessive heat.
4) Contractor will provide a way to keep all of the new plaster continuously wet while the pool is filling.
5) Contractor will be responsible for filling the pool, start-up and chemical balance.
6) Contractor will be responsible for pool maintenance for the first 30 days.


Curious Quantum, Where in the country can you get a plaster co. to accept those terms at a competitive price? 3 would be a huge undertaking and 4, Who is going to pay someone to sit, I mean camp out there while pool fills and keep it sprayed down? Unless it's a truck fill, it could take 24 hours. I would not want to get the plaster wet at all during filling since it may cause unusual modeling or staining. 5 and 6, all i can say is, you guys sure have your plaster companies trained well in your area!

Factory Warranty/Service for:
Jandy, Pentair, Sta-Rite, Raypak, Polaris,
and Paramount pool cleaning systems.


#8 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:52 PM

Competitive price? That's a relative term. I expect to have things done properly. Yes, it costs more, but some things are worth it.

________________________________________________________________________________
_____

From Here

"Pool filling with potable water must begin immediately upon completion of plaster finish coat. If the pool is large or the day hot – special precautions shall be implemented to keep the plaster moist or from curing or drying too quickly.

A fog spray shall be utilized. If the pool is large or the day hot – special precautions may also need to be implemented if the pool is filling slowly. A fog spay shall be utilized to keep the plaster moist until all plaster surfaces are beneath the water level and to ensure proper curing of the new plaster material.

It is the contractor’s sole responsibility to keep the new plaster continually moist until the pool has totally filled with water. Proper curing of the new material will not be achieved unless this process is implemented.

3. When the weather is hot and/or water pressure is low, keep the pool walls damp while the pool is filling.

4. Coordinate with the General Contractor to ensure that the pool is continuously monitored while filling to prevent over fill and to keep walls damp and prohibit excessive drying before beneath water level.

3.06 Maintenance:

A. For the first fourteen (14) days after completion of the pool plaster, brush all plastered surfaces at least twice a day to ensure that the plaster is carefully maintained after the initial fourteen day period. In addition, ensure that pool filtration equipment is continuously running during the initial fourteen day period. Coordinate with other trades and the General Contractor as required.

B. The Contractor shall perform and confirm the chemical balance of the fill water and shall instruct the Owner regarding proper plaster care and confirm the Owner’s assumption of such duties before leaving the job. The Contractor shall be responsible for the cost of start-up chemicals for pH and Chlorine management. At the end of the fourteen day period chemical containers are to be full and ready for the Owner to assume pool maintenance duties.
________________________________________________________________________________
_______

If the plaster is not properly hydrated, it can dry out, craze, crack or become delaminated.

Mottling can be minimized by thoroughly testing the water to ensure that it is not going to adversely affect the plaster.
You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#9 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:55 PM

09221 - Page 1 of 7
DIVISION 9: FINISHES
SECTION 09221 - SWIMMING POOL PLASTER
PART 1- GENERAL
1.01 Division 1 and the General Conditions apply to all work of this Section.
1.02 Description:
A. Work Included:
All preparation of swimming pool structures and labor and materials required to
provide swimming pool plaster as indicated on the Drawings and herein specified.
Phases of the work include the surface preparation of the concrete vessel prior to
receiving plaster. The process includes an application of an initial plaster bond
coat as well as the application of a plaster finish coat. Proper surface preparation
is essential to the work; no plaster shall be applied until all surfaces have been
inspected and approval is given to proceed.
B. Preparation of existing concrete and old plaster and fiberglass (if present) surface
removal to provide a positive bonding between any existing concrete pool vessel
and the application of new plaster. The creation of a bondable surface or “tooth”
must be provided. Removal of 90 percent or more of the existing plaster by
utilizing a jack hammer and/or sandblasting techniques, then significantly
roughening all remaining surfaces through distressing the concrete surfaces to
receive plaster and the application of a bond coat.
C. Thoroughly cleaning the concrete surface of any plaster laitance and disposing of
same. Cleaning to be done with a high pressure washer. Wetting of surface to be
plastered just before placement of plaster is also required.
1.03 Quality Assurance:
A. All Work of this Section shall be performed by the swimming pool
contractor/subcontractor. (C-53)
B. Qualifications of Workers:
1. The installer for this portion of the Work shall have been successfully
engaged in the business of swimming pool plastering for at least five (5)
years immediately prior to commencement of this work, and shall
demonstrate to the Architect a record of satisfactory workman-ship.
2. For actual plastering and finish operations, use only thoroughly trained and
experienced plasterers completely familiar with the materials and methods
specified.
3. Provide at least one person who shall be present at all times during the
execution of this portion of the Work and who shall be thoroughly familiar
with the materials and methods specified, and who shall direct all Work
performed under this Section.
B. Standards: Swimming pool plaster shall be designed to comply with the published
standards of the State and Local Health Department as they apply to the material
and services furnished herein. In addition, meet requirements of applicable
portions of most current editions of the following:
1. ASTM: American Society for Testing Materials.
2. CCR-T19: California Code of Regulations- Title 19, Public Safety.
3. CCR-T21: California Code of Regulations- Title 21, Public Works.
4. CCR-T22: California Code of Regulations- Title 22, Health and Safety.
1.04 Submittals:
A. Provide submittals in accordance with Section 01300.
1. A list of materials to be incorporated into the work by brand name,
descriptive data, catalog number, brochures, or descriptive literature to
positively identify the specified material and its proportion.
09221 - Page 2 of 7
1.05 Product Handling:
A. Delivery: Deliver materials to the Project Site in the manufacturer's original
unopened containers with all labels intact and legible.
B. Storage: Store materials as unopened containers under cover in a manner to
prevent damage and contamination, and store only the specified materials at the
Project Site.
C. Protection: Use all means necessary to protect the swimming pool plaster before,
during, and after installation and to protect the installed Work and materials of all
other trades.
D. Replacements: In the event of damage, immediately make all repairs and
replacements necessary upon review of the Architect.
1.06 Environmental Conditions:
A. No plastering shall be done under unsuitable conditions of weather or temperature.
No plastering shall be done when prevailing temperature is 40 degrees Fahrenheit
or less.
B. Do not install plaster during rain and, if rain commences after plastering has
begun, immediately protect the plaster from rain by all means necessary until the
plaster has set.
C. Do not install plaster during wind greater than 10 mph and, if wind commences
after plastering has begun, immediately protect the plaster from wind by all means
necessary until the plaster has set.
PART 2 - PRODUCTS
2.01 Plaster Thickness: Plaster shall be finished to a true and even surface within limits of
established trade practices. Thickness from the face of the concrete or gunite structure
(substrate) to the finished plaster surface shall be at least 3/8 inch on the floor and walls.
A. Cement: Swimming pool plaster cement shall be white Portland cement
conforming to ASTM C-150, Type I, Waterproofed White, as manufactured by
Atlas Cement Corporation (LeHigh White) or by Gifford Hill Corporation (Riverside
White) or approved equal.
B. Aggregate: Swimming pool aggregate shall be clean, pure (washed) white in color
and free of all organic and inorganic matter injurious to plaster finish. Approved
products are Georgia Marble or Wyoming Marble or Riverside Premium Pool
Aggregate, Pfizer Pool Aggregate, or approved equal.
C. Water: Water for swimming pool plaster shall be clean and free of oil, acid
(between pH of 7 & 8) and organic matter injurious to plaster.
2.02 Mixing of Plaster: Plaster shall be mixed in mechanical mixers. Frozen cakes or lumped
material shall not be used. Each batch shall be accurately proportioned by volume
measured my manual or mechanical devices, mixed with the minimum amount of
water until uniform in color and consistency. Re-tempering will not be permitted:
plaster that has begun to set must be discarded. Proportioning and mixing for
machine application shall be:
One part of Portland white cement
Two parts of marble sand
One gallon “Acryl 60” concentrate or four gallons regular strength solution.
Potable water as required to achieve a slump of (5”) five inches utilizing a
concrete slump cone to measure. If a standard plaster slump cone is
utilized for measurement – the slump is to be two and one-half inches (2
½”) maximum.
2.03 Preparation: Prepare the substrate (concrete or gunite) surface until suitable to receive
plaster application by the Architect prior to applying plaster work.
A. The six inch band of plaster and/or concrete immediately beneath the waterline tile
shall be chipped out around the entire perimeter of the pool which will ensure a
09221 - Page 3 of 7
plaster thickness of three-quarters of an inch. No old plaster (if any) will be
allowed to remain on the concrete substrate in the area described.
B. A six inch area of concrete immediately around all pool light fixtures, inlets,
skimmers, main drains, etc., shall be removed to ensure a plaster thickness of
three-quarters of an inch around such items. No old plaster (if any) will be allowed
to remain on the concrete substrate in the area described.
C. High pressure wash the concrete surface which is to receive the plaster finish to
remove any and all sand, debris, dust and laitance of any type.
2.04 Application Sequence: A two-coat process shall be applied to all concrete or gunite
surfaces in pool interior.
A. Temperature: The ambient temperature shall be above 40 degrees and below 100
degrees Fahrenheit a week prior to and during proposed application. Fans and
baffles shall be provided, when necessary, for adequate ventilation and circulation
of avoid overheating.
B. Bond Coat Preparation: Prior to the application of the initial bond coat of plaster, a
100 percent solution of “Acryl 60” shall be applied, either by brush or by spray to all
wall and floor concrete or gunite pool vessel structure surfaces. After drying to a
tacky consistency, the surfaces to receive plaster may be considered ready to
receive the bond coat of plaster.
C. Bond Coat: Pneumatically apply initial bond coat of plaster pneumatically – filling
all corners and leveling all depressions and bull-nose all reentrant corners. The
surfaces thus applied shall be broom finished or roughened so that the finish coat
to follows, shall adhere to it properly. The bond coat shall be allowed to partially
dry before finish coat is applied.
D. Finish Coat: The finish coat, following the specific mix proportions above shall be
pneumatically applied over the partially dry bond coat of Multi-coat fog bond coat.
The finish coat shall be floated to a true and even surface, then troweled in a
manner that will force the sand particles into the plaster. A second troweling is
required to place the plaster surface to a smooth and non-rough surface, exclusive
of trowel marks, checks, cracks or blemishes. A dry sponge should then be utilized
to remove all plaster dust or other laitance from the smooth plaster surface and
tile.
E. Pool filling with potable water must begin immediately upon completion of plaster
finish coat. If the pool is large or the day hot – special precautions shall be
implemented to keep the plaster moist or from curing or drying too quickly. A fog
spray shall be utilized. If the pool is large or the day hot – special precautions may
also need to be implemented if the pool is filling slowly. A fog spay shall be utilized
to keep the plaster moist until all plaster surfaces are beneath the water level and
to ensure proper curing of the new plaster material. It is the contractor’s sole
responsibility to keep the new plaster continually moist until the pool has totally
filled with water. Proper curing of the new material will not be achieved unless this
process is implemented.
F. Patching: Plaster blemishes such as over-sanding, cracking, blistering, pitting,
checking or discoloration or crazing, is not acceptable. Any plaster having the
above characteristics shall be removed and replaced at the contractor’s expense
immediately upon discovery. Any patching is to be done upon prior approval of the
Architect and patchwork must match existing work in color and texture and not be
discernable. Plaster for patches should comply with above specification and be of
same quality and consistency.
2.05 Gutter & Surge Chamber Waterproofing:
A. Thoroseal, or approved equal. Mix as per manufacturer's recommendations for
specific application. Color shall be White. Finish to be sanded if necessary to be
smooth. Two coats, Trowel Finish.
09221 - Page 4 of 7
2.06 Delivery and Storage of Materials: To be in original containers with labels bearing the
name of the manufacturer. Storage of materials on site shall be on palettes above
the ground and under a weather tight cover. Any damaged material shall be
disposed of properly and may not be utilized in the work.
2.07 Equipment and materials used by contractor to accomplish the work in this section shall be
of heavy-duty type and grade, fully adequate to perform the work required herein.
2.08 Patching Compounds: Where cementitious patching compounds are required to fill minor
cracks or hollows in the substrate or to smooth the prepared surface, the
contractor shall use Master Builders or Latticrete Grout and Patching Compound or
a pre-surfacing mixture specifically approved by the manufacturer of the plastering
materials herein specified.
2.09 Upon inspection of pool vessel where rusting or staining of concrete pool vessel is evident
– chip out concrete before plastering and replace rebar and fully encase with new
concrete to ensure rusting does not continue nor does it have the opportunity to
stain new plaster.
PART 3 - EXECUTION
3.01 Surface Conditions:
A. Preparation:
1. Completely stripping and removing existing plaster and/or fiberglass or any
other coating (paint, patches, etc). Upon conclusion of preparation at least
90 percent of all previous plaster coating will be removed with only trace
remainders in hollows and patches of significant thickness to remain
positively bonded to substrate with unquestionable physical integrity. The
remaining plaster adhering to pool shell should be tested as to its integrity
both internally and in bonding to pool vessel surface with a sounding
hammer.
2. Any tile to be protected (remain) will be masked with appropriate and
substantial material to afford its protection.
3. After the plaster and/or fiberglass removal and the concrete pool vessel is
revealed, it final preparation shall leave it roughened. Roughening shall
include:
a. A coarse sandblasting or water blasting.
b. Bush hammering to uniformly roughen the entire surface.
c. Surface shall be left sound, significantly roughened and devoid of
smooth patches or spots.
d. Surface chipping is a tight pattern of adjacent holes from ¼ to ½
inch in depth no more than two inches (2”) apart. It is the intention
of this specification to require a distressed surface – fully
roughened with no smooth areas to allow for the plaster to fully
bond itself with the sound concrete pool vessel.
A. Inspection:
1. Prior to Work of this Section, carefully inspect the installed Work of other
trades and verify that all such Work is complete to the point where this
installation can properly commence.
2. Verify that swimming pool plaster can be installed in accordance with the
original design and all referenced standards.
3. Contractor shall ensure that the original concrete or gunite substrate is
virtually exposed and thoroughly cleaned and verified in sound condition.
Any plaster laitance shall be of unquestionable integrity and rough enough
to ensure permanent, mechanical bonding of the future plaster coating.
4. All depressions, cracks, openings and non-level areas in pool substrate
shall be cleaned and filled with appropriate patching materials. Grinding
09221 - Page 5 of 7
may be required in high spots.
5. Surfaces contaminated with oil, grease or other chemicals which might
impair plaster adhesion shall be scrubbed with hot (160 degree Fahrenheit)
tri-sodium phosphate solution and water, mixed at a ratio of two pounds per
gallon of water, until such areas are thoroughly cleaned. Treated areas
shall be rinsed twice and dried. Sand blast & water blast & apply multicoat.
6. Upon completion of preparatory work above the entire surface shall be
thoroughly cleaned and vacuumed – followed by compressed air dusting to
leave the surface essentially dust-free. Remove contaminated water.
7. Acid washing is not recommended as a method of surface preparation.
B. Discrepancies:
1. In the event of discrepancy, immediately notify the Architect.
2. Do not proceed with installation in areas of discrepancy until all such
discrepancies have been fully resolved.
3. Failure to notify the Architect and give written notice of discrepancies shall
constitute acceptance by the Contractor of existing conditions as fit and
proper to receive the Work.
4. In the event that cracks, voids or heavily eroded areas are discovered
during the work – the correct method to remedy each will be addressed
and implemented.
3.02 Installation of Gutter & Surge Chamber Waterproofing:
A. Provide two (2) coats of the specified gutter and surge chamber waterproofing
prior to installation of pool plaster. Prepare surfaces to receive waterproofing and
cure in conformance with manufacturer's recommendations. Provide steel trowel
application method to ensure uniform smooth, dense surface finish.
3.03 Installation of Pool Plaster:
A. Completion of Other Work: Do not commence plastering of swimming pool until all
concrete deck areas, landscaping and other construction adjacent to the pool is
complete and all construction equipment used for those portions of the Work have
been moved from the immediate area.
B. Preparation:
1. Do not apply plaster over dirt, rust, scale, grease, moisture, scuffed
surfaces or conditions otherwise detrimental to the formation of a durable
plaster finish.
2. Consult with manufacturer on application to specific surfaces being treated.
Follow manufacturer's recommendation for curing of concrete, shotcrete
surfaces prior to application of plaster.
3. Protect ceramic tile, decking, deck equipment, gratings, fittings and other
items by suitable covering or masking.
4. Mask or remove all hardware, hardware accessories, machined surfaces,
plates, lighting fixtures and similar items in place not to receive pool plaster.
Following completion of plaster for each space or area remove masking.
Re-install all removed items utilizing workers skilled in the trades involved.
C. Application:
1. Into the parging coat of the concrete surfaces, trowel a finish coat of the
specified marble plaster to a thickness between 3/8" and 1/2" maximum. If
leveling coat is required, use a brown coat application of one part cement
to three parts clean, washed sand.
2. Float the plaster to a uniform plane and trowel to a smooth, dense,
impervious surface using extreme care to avoid stains.
3. Take special care in finishing around pool fit-tings, making sure to mask off
or plug openings so as not to fill such openings with excess plaster. Be
09221 - Page 6 of 7
certain to completely enclose pool fittings with plaster to insure a leak-proof
seal around pipes, fittings, lights, anchors, etc.
4. Accurately interface with the finish planes of items installed by other trades.
3.04 Curing:
A. Preparation: Anticipate the need for required equipment and have all such
equipment immediately available for use upon completion of pool plastering.
Especially as it pertains to the pool circulation system. Ensure that pumps, filters,
strainers, piping, etc. is clean and ready to begin the circulation of pool water at the
turnover rate of once every six hours.
B. Pool Filling:
1. After the plaster has sufficiently dried and before drying has proceeded to a
damaging point, cure the plaster by gradually filling the pool with water,
preventing all damage to finished plaster surfaces.
2. Flow the water continuously until the pool is filled.
3. When the weather is hot and/or water pressure is low, keep the pool walls
damp while the pool is filling.
4. Coordinate with the General Contractor to ensure that the pool is
continuously monitored while filling to prevent over fill and to keep walls
damp and prohibit excessive drying before beneath water level.
5. Contractor will arrange for and pay for water to fill pool upon completion of
plaster work (one time), should the pool need to be emptied and refilled
based on contractor error the cost for same will be born by the contractor.
3.05 Clean-Up:
A. Upon completion of pool plaster, remove all materials, equipment and debris
occasioned by this Work and leave the job site in a clean and presentable
condition. Perform all such clean up to meet the review of the Architect.
B. It is especially important that construction dirt and debris be removed and cleaned
from the pool circulation piping and surge pit so that the pool can be filled by
placing a hose in the surge tank and filling the pool. The circulation system should
be left clean enough so as not to allow dirt and debris to be washed back into the
pool and onto the pool plaster.
3.06 Maintenance:
A. For the first fourteen (14) days after completion of the pool plaster, brush all
plastered surfaces at least twice a day to ensure that the plaster is carefully
maintained after the initial fourteen day period. In addition, ensure that pool
filtration equipment is continuously running during the initial fourteen day period.
Coordinate with other trades and the General Contractor as required.
B. The Contractor shall perform and confirm the chemical balance of the fill water and
shall instruct the Owner regarding proper plaster care and confirm the Owner’s
assumption of such duties before leaving the job. The Contractor shall be
responsible for the cost of start-up chemicals for pH and Chlorine management.
At the end of the fourteen day period chemical containers are to be full and ready
for the Owner to assume pool maintenance duties. Calcium chloride and
bicarbonate of soda quantities may also be required.
3.07 Warranty:
A. Warranty work is undesirable and costly. The initial quality of the preparation and
plaster product and its application is of utmost importance.
B. The successful contractor shall warrant the work in writing against all defects in
materials and/or workmanship for a period of three (3) years following completion
of the project. This warranty includes but is not limited to; delamination, separation
of patches or portions of the plaster from the pool surface or substrate (spawling)
due to inadequate bond, degrading of remaining substrate or for any other reason
that can be shown as directly related to poor or incomplete preparation.
09221 - Page 7 of 7
Discoloration or staining or other minor variations that do not occur from
inadequate maintenance (such as rust from metal items left on the surface long
enough to stain). The contractor warrants that such defects will be repaired to a
“like-new” condition. Warranty liability does not include degradation or failure from
normal wear and tear, mistreatment or neglect, staining due to improper use of
chemicals, long-term water imbalance, vandalism, extended periods of the pool
drained, or accidental or natural causes beyond the contractor’s control, however
the burden of proof rests with the plaster contractor.
C. The pool Owner is expected to notify the contractor immediately upon discovery of
a defect. Determination of the applicability of the warranty shall lie with a thirdparty
pool consultant in case of a dispute, with any fee born by the contractor only
if the defect is deemed a warranty item, otherwise by the Owner.
D. The contractor is liable for all incidental or consequential damages related to the
defects or repair of same, including the cost of pool draining and refill and
associated labor as well as chemicals required to re-establish and cure warranty
work. In the event of warranty work a one-hundred dollar a day penalty will be
assessed to allow the Owner to find a new venue for any programs. It may be
agreed between the Owner and contractor to perform the work in an off-season
time when any aquatic programs would not be precluded – thereby avoiding
liquidated damage type penalties described above.
E. Warranty work does not extend the original guarantee period.
END OF SECTION
You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#10 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:22 PM

http://dms.cityofmis...;fileid=1591606

Link fixed
You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#11 Pool Clown

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:44 PM

If you were under the impression that i would actually begin to read this cut and paste, you're mistaken. I know what a good plaster job involves.

How much of this is do you think is really followed in the real world? Do you even do business with plasterers? I don't know where you are located, but in the S.F. bay area, Plaster crews would get a good chuckle from your "demands" and pull off the job. And by the way, good plaster work is done here so you can forgo the comments about poor plaster quality in my area, if not following your "specifications". We have hot days and have the common sense not to plaster when conditions are not right. Your'e willing to pay any amount to have a "good" job done? Not all of us are as well off as you, i guess, because most of us don't have the "money is no object" mentality. We want quality work at yes, a competitive price. Not an over inflated price because of extra labor costs for what will be the same job. You can spew all you want about how you think i'm wrong, but i'm out there every day and see the results, so don't try to tell me how things are, or should be, in the real world. Stick to cut and paste, you're good at it.

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#12 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Pool Clown @ Jul 31 2009, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you were under the impression that i would actually begin to read this cut and paste, you're mistaken. I know what a good plaster job involves.

How much of this is do you think is really followed in the real world?


If you didn't even read it, then what are you responding to?

It pays to do things right the first time. Many plaster jobs end up with less than optimal performance due to preventable causes. Just because things are not routinely done does not mean that they are not the right thing to do.

You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#13 Pool Clown

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (quantumchromodynamics @ Aug 1 2009, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Pool Clown @ Jul 31 2009, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you were under the impression that i would actually begin to read this cut and paste, you're mistaken. I know what a good plaster job involves.

How much of this is do you think is really followed in the real world?


If you didn't even read it, then what are you responding to?

Are you suggesting I respond to this?

09221 - Page 1 of 7
DIVISION 9: FINISHES
SECTION 09221 - SWIMMING POOL PLASTER
PART 1- GENERAL
1.01 Division 1 and the General Conditions apply to all work of this Section.
1.02 Description:
A. Work Included:
All preparation of swimming pool structures and
bla bla bla

Whats there to respond to, It's code!

It pays to do things right the first time.

"Right the first time" is a relative term. One mans right the first time is another mans excess.


Many plaster jobs end up with less than optimal performance due to preventable causes.
Wouldn't that include not plastering without the right conditions? ie wheather, Instead of running the cost up with extravigant misting procedures during fill?
Just because things are not routinely done does not mean that they are not the right thing to do.
But at what point do you draw the line on over prep,plaster, fill, and cost?

Do you work with plasterers?, and do you have them follow your 6 recomondations er specifications?

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#14 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 02:50 PM

The specifications that I referenced were written by someone who knew what they were talking about and they were accepted and followed by a California contractor. I doubt that there was any chuckling involved.

Most customers do not have enough information to provide detailed specifications and they just accept whatever the contractor tells them.

I do work with plasterers. We discuss the need for adding calcium chloride based on the conditions. We also agree on how much and how it will be added, if any. I do make sure that they do not use the wrong trowels. Protection from direct sunlight is usually not followed. As you noted, "We have hot days and have the common sense not to plaster when conditions are not right." Keeping the walls wet will mitigate drying due to heat or sun. Usually the plasterer does not want to be responsible for keeping the walls wet. I usually take care of that. I also take care of the start-up and maintenance as well.

You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#15 Pool Clown

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (quantumchromodynamics @ Aug 1 2009, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The specifications that I referenced were written by someone who knew what they were talking about and they were accepted and followed by a California contractor. I doubt that there was any chuckling involved.

I do. If i went to my plasterer and said i wanted him to do it "this way" He would chuckle. I'm sorry but he would. for me to tell him how to do his job, especially when he has a tried and true method of doing pools, would be pointless.

Most customers do not have enough information to provide detailed specifications and they just accept whatever the contractor tells them.
Why would a customer have to provide the plasterer detailed spec.? So they have to trust their contractor, is that so bad?

I do work with plasterers. We discuss the need for adding calcium chloride based on the conditions. We also agree on how much and how it will be added, if any. I do make sure that they do not use the wrong trowels.

Sounds like you don't trust your contractor to the point where you have to monitor his batch. Thats where we differ, I trust my sub and trust him to do the job, This involves a certain amount of respect as well as trust. If your'e watching him, theres a certain amount of respect that is lost.

Protection from direct sunlight is usually not followed. As you noted, "We have hot days and have the common sense not to plaster when conditions are not right." Keeping the walls wet will mitigate drying due to heat or sun. Usually the plasterer does not want to be responsible for keeping the walls wet. I usually take care of that. I also take care of the start-up and maintenance as well.


Well, if nothing else, it sounds like you do know how to plaster pools. You should plaster pools for a living, Theres more money in it than being a pool guy. I'm sure you'll agree with that (discounting the current economy of course).

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#16 quantumchromodynamics

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 09:53 PM

Well, that's a good point. It is always difficult to know how much to get involved with, and watch over a contractor. Of course, you should trust them, but there needs to be a certain level of communication and cooperation and collaboration to ensure that everyone is on the same page and that there are no misunderstandings. Trust has to be earned. Some contractors have earned a lot of trust and don't require much supervision.

I'm sure that you don't completely trust all contractors that you deal with and feel like there is no need to verify that their work is being done correctly.

You can't manage what you don't measure. Get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

#17 Pool Clown

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 10:55 PM

QUOTE (quantumchromodynamics @ Aug 1 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, that's a good point. It is always difficult to know how much to get involved with, and watch over a contractor. Of course, you should trust them, but there needs to be a certain level of communication and cooperation and collaboration to ensure that everyone is on the same page and that there are no misunderstandings.
Absolutely...

Trust has to be earned.

And you should give respect, until its lost.

"I'm sure that you don't completely trust all contractors"-

Completely? Who does?

It also helps to get lucky with contractors. Meaning they prove that they can work unobserved and with the quality you need/want in a realitively short time frame, and be able to keep them for long periods of time. Trying out new contractors is always stressful. It helps to have a couple of contractors to use, in case of hickups, breakdowns, etc. Of course you gotta give them little adjustments after they miss something. The trick is to get him to think it was his idea to do it better the next time, HA.

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#18 tranders

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 03:34 PM

This is an interesting thread. Of course you both make good arguments. And the all arguments could easily be expanded into business dealings in general.

You seem to be contractors. I tend to lean Quantum's direction. Expecially from an end consumer standpoint. The issues Quantum is attempting to help avoid are long term. I am paying for it and am the one who has to deal with maintenance and any issues over the next 5, 10, 20, etc years. You get to walk away from the job a few days later and hope/assume everything is good. I am looking for a sure thing - that's why I always buy her that extra drink. I don't want to rely on getting lucky if I can help it!

#19 Pool Clown

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 04:29 PM

QUOTE (tranders @ Aug 8 2009, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You get to walk away from the job a few days later...
First of all, neither of us "walk away from the job" once its completed. There is plenty of follow up to a re plastered pool.

...and hope/assume everything is good.
I don't think we hope or assume anything either. Thats what the follow up(s) are to prevent. You know what happens when someone assumes don't you?

I am looking for a sure thing - that's why I always buy her that extra drink.
That may work for you, and thats ok, but throwing money at something doesn't always mean it's a sure thing.

I don't want to rely on getting lucky if I can help it!
If by lucky you mean years of experience in the industry, and still in business?, then lucky it is.


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#20 Mexicali Pool guy

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 08:24 PM

Dear Friends,
Let me present myself:
I started in Mexicali Mexico a swimming pool construction company in 1984 (25 years ago) named "Albercas Aquarius"
I started from zero knowledge of the swimming pool construction experience, just after watching the construction of one 15 X 30 in ground swimming pool.
Practice, mistakes and time made me improve this knowledge, and after almost 600 s. pools made in Mexicali, I was so tired (stressed) that I stopped doing this for 2 full years.
I am a Medicine Doctor with specialization in Acupuncture and electrotherapies. The medicine and the s. pool made me almost crazy... because the working guys at the s. pools were asking for sand, gravel, plaster, etc. and I was working as a Doctor.
Well to make a long fable short... I quit the s. pool construction this 3 last years, but yesterday I talked to a good friend (and co-worker in the S. Pool building) and told me he resigned at the s. pool company he was working, and since I made a "Corporation" in USA for the working of this building, he offered to be partners, and he will find the jobs and I will be in front of the company.
I read all your tread on this plaster theme, really interesting (both of you guys) and I agree with almost all of your telling about plastering... the real smart part of the s. pool that can end in a good work or in a disaster (doing the job again, and again)
My question since I used for plastering ONLY white cement, poolmix and water... and today days I discovered the plastering is using agregates ( 3M colorquartz) and I do not know the correct proportions of blue, cayman (green), black, for a good blending color (And as saying from the 3M web page more duration and resistance) AND the white cement and poolmix?
I will greatly appreciate your income on this matter.
Alex

QUOTE (Pool Clown @ Aug 8 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (tranders @ Aug 8 2009, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You get to walk away from the job a few days later...
First of all, neither of us "walk away from the job" once its completed. There is plenty of follow up to a re plastered pool.

...and hope/assume everything is good.
I don't think we hope or assume anything either. Thats what the follow up(s) are to prevent. You know what happens when someone assumes don't you?

I am looking for a sure thing - that's why I always buy her that extra drink.
That may work for you, and thats ok, but throwing money at something doesn't always mean it's a sure thing.

I don't want to rely on getting lucky if I can help it!
If by lucky you mean years of experience in the industry, and still in business?, then lucky it is.




#21 zooxpoork

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 03:23 AM

I brought a bestway easyup pool in july and put it up in august, but the metal supportsthat hold it up have gone rusty. Has anyone else had this problem, if so what did you do




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