Bromine/chlorine Hypersensitivity

[Whoneedsavacation]

I have read here that people are more often "allergic" to bromine than chlorine. I think in either case it isn't technically an allergy, but a hypersensitivity, but technicalities aside, I'm wondering how to judge if we should change our primary sanitizer, our shock regime, or none of the above.

I find I get itchy, dry skin if I don't apply lotion after a soak, but I get itchy dry skin in the winter anyway. I assume the water is just drying, chemical or no chemical. My husband, however, is not as prone to itchy dry skin and he has been complaining recently. We've had the tub for a few months now, it is due for a drain and refill, and he didn't start complaining until the last month-ish. We have been using bromine tablets with non-chlorine shock applied twice weekly. Until recently the bromine level has been very high and I finally have it near the optimal level.

Is it likely that we should change sanitizers when we refill? If so, my query about biguanide suggests we should try chlorine first... is there anything dramatically different about using chlorine other than the need to watch CYA buildup?

Do those moisturizers formulated for hot tubs and spas work well? Do they "mess up" the water?

[TinyBubbles]

I'd switch just to see if it helps. It's easy to change back. If you change to chlorine, you can add bromine at any time and it's a bromine spa again. But, if you start with bromine, it stays bromine. I think that chlorine is easy as pie. We just throw some in when we get out each night and shock weekly with mps. Originally, I tested nightly to make sure my free chlorine was getting up to 3ppm. Now, I just add the same amount every night. You might want to try a mineral cartridge. I use Nature 2. You just put it inside your filter cartridge. It should reduce your need for as much chlorine and it makes the water feel much softer. I love it. Don't use it with bromine! I think spa frog is the only one that makes one compatible with bromine. We went on vacation for 5 days, I added about 7x's my normal daily chlorine dose. Came home to sparkling clean water. By dosing with chlorine when you get out of the tub, you are killing germs before they have time to multiply and you are soaking the next day in the lowest chlorine levels. In fact, I haven't noticed any chlorine smell yet. Shocking weekly with MPS helps with this as well. Other than one person on this site, I have yet to find anyone thrilled with biguanide products. They are expensive and hard to use from what I understand. I think it would be easier to give chlorine a try and if that doesn't work, then try a biguanide. Start simple. Also, there is another site, rhtubs, that has some great chemical dosing info. Look under miscellaneous/message boards etc, then question and answer board, then on the left side, frequently asked questions. There is a vermonter style and a northman style. Both are very helpful.

[chem geek]

I agree with TinyBubbles that this is something you just need to try out and see what works best for you. And yes, it's really a hypersensitivity that most people are talking about when they develop a rash or itch.

Technically, any oxidizer in the water is going to try and oxidize your skin as well as what's in the water. Both chlorine and MPS are strong in that regard; bromine is weaker (even accounting for the CYA with chlorine). The only way around this is to use the approach some have described of dosing after you get out of the tub so that by the time you next get back in you have lower oxidizer levels (you still want some residual, but it doesn't have to be the full dose -- remember that killing most bacteria is the easiest part).

I find it hard to believe that moisturizers would work well without just adding more organics to the water that need to get broken down. It's similar to putting oils or lotions on your skin and getting in the water. It's not terrible -- it just means you need to shock more, probably with MPS, to break these down but it's generally easier to avoid adding them in the first place. As I noted elsewhere, if there are clarifiers or suspended particles in the water, then the oils you add can consolidate and get caught in the filter. So the use of such products just makes for more maintenance. They aren't a disaster, but may not be worth the hassle.

Richard

[Whoneedsavacation]

What about the bromine bank & shock approach rather than using constant-feed tablets? Any experience there?

[TubTime]

I'd switch just to see if it helps. It's easy to change back. If you change to chlorine, you can add bromine at any time and it's a bromine spa again. But, if you start with bromine, it stays bromine. I think that chlorine is easy as pie. We just throw some in when we get out each night and shock weekly with mps. Originally, I tested nightly to make sure my free chlorine was getting up to 3ppm. Now, I just add the same amount every night. You might want to try a mineral cartridge. I use Nature 2. You just put it inside your filter cartridge. It should reduce your need for as much chlorine and it makes the water feel much softer. I love it. Don't use it with bromine! I think spa frog is the only one that makes one compatible with bromine. We went on vacation for 5 days, I added about 7x's my normal daily chlorine dose. Came home to sparkling clean water. By dosing with chlorine when you get out of the tub, you are killing germs before they have time to multiply and you are soaking the next day in the lowest chlorine levels. In fact, I haven't noticed any chlorine smell yet. Shocking weekly with MPS helps with this as well. Other than one person on this site, I have yet to find anyone thrilled with biguanide products. They are expensive and hard to use from what I understand. I think it would be easier to give chlorine a try and if that doesn't work, then try a biguanide. Start simple. Also, there is another site, rhtubs, that has some great chemical dosing info. Look under miscellaneous/message boards etc, then question and answer board, then on the left side, frequently asked questions. There is a vermonter style and a northman style. Both are very helpful.

Is it safe to use the nature 2 cartridge with chlorine? I had heard that the chlorine will eat up the copper and silver.

[chem geek]

Is it safe to use the nature 2 cartridge with chlorine? I had heard that the chlorine will eat up the copper and silver.

Normal levels of chlorine, especially with CYA in the water as would be the case when using Dichlor at least some of the time, will not eat up or corrode the copper or silver -- at least not very quickly. After all, copper is used in some gas heaters in heat exchangers, though they do not last as long as titanium or cupro-nickel alloys. Copper piping in homes is quite common and does not corrode quickly in spite of chlorine (with no CYA) that used to be used in the water (now monochloramine is more commonly used). Low pH is far more destructive to metals than chlorine levels, though high chlorine levels (such as high chlorine without CYA) combined with high conductivity such as from high salt levels can be corrosive.

In some systems, copper and silver are converted from metals to ions using electrolysis, but in Nature 2 it sounds like they use compounds where the metals are already ions and are dissolved or dosed via water flow or where the water flow powers electrolysis (they aren't clear on their website about this -- they say they are not ionizers, but then talk about being "powered" by water flow). Nature 2 for pools uses silver and copper while Nature 2 Spa uses zinc and silver. That's a good thing since spas tend to rise in pH a lot and using copper would result in green water a lot of the time (from precipitating copper hydroxide and oxide). The Nature 2 Spa owner's manual here indicates that Nature 2 Spa is not compatible with bromine, sodium bromide or biguanides (e.g. Baqua). It is intended to be used with chlorine and in fact must have at least some residual amount of chlorine. After you balance the water and install the cartridge, the instructions say to superchlorinate (they call it superoxidation) by using Dichlor. So clearly their product is designed to be used with chlorine, even at shock levels. Their low-chlorine procedure uses mostly MPS with chlorine for shocking as needed though they also indicate that the daily MPS may be substituted with Dichlor (chlorine).

Richard

[waterbear]

Is it safe to use the nature 2 cartridge with chlorine? I had heard that the chlorine will eat up the copper and silver.

You MUST use N2 with chlorine if you want santized water! Chlorine is needed to activate it and, according to the newest N2 instructions the spa must be shocked weekly with chlorine or more often if needed. MPS is only to be used on a daily basis but it is also ok (and probably a better idea) to use chlorine instead of the MPS.

Copper and silver are not primary sanitizers and MUST be used with a chlorine residual.

[waterbear]

Is it safe to use the nature 2 cartridge with chlorine? I had heard that the chlorine will eat up the copper and silver.

Normal levels of chlorine, especially with CYA in the water as would be the case when using Dichlor at least some of the time, will not eat up or corrode the copper or silver -- at least not very quickly. After all, copper is used in some gas heaters in heat exchangers, though they do not last as long as titanium or cupro-nickel alloys. Copper piping in homes is quite common and does not corrode quickly in spite of chlorine (with no CYA) that used to be used in the water (now monochloramine is more commonly used). Low pH is far more destructive to metals than chlorine levels, though high chlorine levels (such as high chlorine without CYA) combined with high conductivity such as from high salt levels can be more corrosive.

In some systems, copper and silver are converted from metals to ions using electrolysis, but in Nature 2 it sounds like they use compounds where the metals are already ions and are dissolved or dosed via water flow or where the water flow powers electrolysis (they aren't clear on their website about this -- they say they are not ionizers, but then talk about being "powered" by water flow).

N2 used copper sulfate and silver nitrate on a slow release ceramic bead substrate. It is similar to the way a chlorine tablet erosion feeder works.

Nature 2 for pools uses silver and copper while Nature 2 Spa uses zinc and silver.

N2 uses copper sulfate and silver nitrate in both the pool and spa cartridges. The Frog system uses silver and zinc. Copper and zinc have similar algaestatic properties. Also the Frog system has a liquid product called Frog Bam which is simply a chelated copper algaecide!

That's a good thing since spas tend to rise in pH a lot and using copper would result in green water a lot of the time (from precipitating copper hydroxide and oxide). The Nature 2 Spa owner's manual here indicates that Nature 2 Spa is not compatible with bromine, sodium bromide or biguanides (e.g. Baqua). It is intended to be used with chlorine and in fact must have at least some residual amount of chlorine. After you balance the water and install the cartridge, the instructions say to superchlorinate (they call it superoxidation) by using Dichlor. So clearly their product is designed to be used with chlorine, even at shock levels. Their low-chlorine procedure uses mostly MPS with chlorine for shocking as needed though they also indicate that the daily MPS may be substituted with Dichlor (chlorine).

Richard

Just clearing up a bit of misinformation. Aslo the Frog system is compatible with either chlorine or bromine as the primary sanitizer. I am not a big fan of either of these metal 'erosion' systems.

[TinyBubbles]

No worries about using dichlor. If you check with the people at Zodiac, they will tell you that you can substitute daily dichlor dosing for daily mps dosing when using N2. There is some disagreement out there about wether or not you should change your cartridges more frequently. As long as my water quality is ok, I see no reason to do this. Right now, I'm taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it approach". Seasoned veterans warned me about keeping things simple and that is what I'm doing. My dealer was out for orientation 2 weeks after we had the tub and commented on how great my water was. Because I am prone to outbreaks and skin allergies, I was really worried about having a spa. So far, my skin quality and softness has improved. Last night my hubby even commented on how soft my skin is right now. I know I've said it before, and chem geek did as well, but I still think dosing with dichlor after soaking will be your best bet. When you get in the next day, it shouldn't be much different than soaking in a tub.

[chem geek]

N2 used copper sulfate and silver nitrate on a slow release ceramic bead substrate. It is similar to the way a chlorine tablet erosion feeder works.

N2 uses copper sulfate and silver nitrate in both the pool and spa cartridges. The Frog system uses silver and zinc. Copper and zinc have similar algaestatic properties. Also the Frog system has a liquid product called Frog Bam which is simply a chelated copper algaecide!

I got the information about using zinc in N2 for spas from the Zodiac N2 website in the About section on this page. Sounds like they need to update their website. I've seen other inconsistencies in terms of being chlorine-free vs. requiring some chlorine so this is not surprising. Thanks for clarifying what they meant by "powered" -- that it is an erosion feeder.

How in the heck are they controlling metal ion concentration with an erosion feeder? It seems to me that it would just continue to build up except for that lost from getting attached to cells that, with a clarifier, might get trapped in the filter which would be periodically cleaned.

[TubTime]

Is it safe to use the nature 2 cartridge with chlorine? I had heard that the chlorine will eat up the copper and silver.

Normal levels of chlorine, especially with CYA in the water as would be the case when using Dichlor at least some of the time, will not eat up or corrode the copper or silver -- at least not very quickly. After all, copper is used in some gas heaters in heat exchangers, though they do not last as long as titanium or cupro-nickel alloys. Copper piping in homes is quite common and does not corrode quickly in spite of chlorine (with no CYA) that used to be used in the water (now monochloramine is more commonly used). Low pH is far more destructive to metals than chlorine levels, though high chlorine levels (such as high chlorine without CYA) combined with high conductivity such as from high salt levels can be corrosive.

In some systems, copper and silver are converted from metals to ions using electrolysis, but in Nature 2 it sounds like they use compounds where the metals are already ions and are dissolved or dosed via water flow or where the water flow powers electrolysis (they aren't clear on their website about this -- they say they are not ionizers, but then talk about being "powered" by water flow). Nature 2 for pools uses silver and copper while Nature 2 Spa uses zinc and silver. That's a good thing since spas tend to rise in pH a lot and using copper would result in green water a lot of the time (from precipitating copper hydroxide and oxide). The Nature 2 Spa owner's manual here indicates that Nature 2 Spa is not compatible with bromine, sodium bromide or biguanides (e.g. Baqua). It is intended to be used with chlorine and in fact must have at least some residual amount of chlorine. After you balance the water and install the cartridge, the instructions say to superchlorinate (they call it superoxidation) by using Dichlor. So clearly their product is designed to be used with chlorine, even at shock levels. Their low-chlorine procedure uses mostly MPS with chlorine for shocking as needed though they also indicate that the daily MPS may be substituted with Dichlor (chlorine).

Richard

Thanks for the info. Richard. Ive been using 6% non sented bleach as you have talked about in other posts and so far things have been looking good , keeping my chlorine levele at 2 to 3 ppm I was using the diclor daily and got very dry itchy skin, we'll have to see how it goes with the bleach, also I guess I will put my natute 2 cartridge back in. Thanks again.

[chem geek]

Thanks for the info. Richard. Ive been using 6% non sented bleach as you have talked about in other posts and so far things have been looking good , keeping my chlorine levele at 2 to 3 ppm I was using the diclor daily and got very dry itchy skin, we'll have to see how it goes with the bleach, also I guess I will put my natute 2 cartridge back in. Thanks again.

If the itchiness came from hot tub itch bacteria, then the limited Dichlor and then only bleach routine *might* help. If the itchiness is just from irritation from an oxidizer, then I doubt that my proposed routine will help and if anything it will be more irritating in the later months compared to the Dichlor-only which would have ended up with lower effective chlorine levels in the later months. So let us know how it goes.

As for Nature 2, I am with waterbear and don't see the value of it compared to other options people have worked out such as dosing after getting out of the tub and having low (but not zero) chlorine when you next get in. I am puzzled by reports of having a better feel in the water from using Nature 2 as the amount of metal ions is too small to have that sort of effect. If it's a side effect of using a lower chlorine level, then that I can understand.

There's just something quite strange about there being so much more itchiness in the hot tub than in a pool that is sanitized with chlorine alone (with CYA) in a similar way. Even at high chlorine levels in a pool, itching isn't usually one of those complaints unless the level gets really high as with indoor pools that don't use CYA. I know that hot water opens the pores of the skin more so the skin will be more sensitive so perhaps that's got something to do with it. Anyway, if one wants to use metal ions, and specifically silver, to potentially allow for a lower chlorine level (especially during soaking) then there are less expensive ways of doing that then Nature 2. There are silver nitrate solutions specifically designed for spa use (i.e. in terms of concentration and dosage) you can buy and there are tests for silver levels that would be more consistent than the erosion-fed Nature 2 method.

Richard

[waterbear]

N2 used copper sulfate and silver nitrate on a slow release ceramic bead substrate. It is similar to the way a chlorine tablet erosion feeder works.

N2 uses copper sulfate and silver nitrate in both the pool and spa cartridges. The Frog system uses silver and zinc. Copper and zinc have similar algaestatic properties. Also the Frog system has a liquid product called Frog Bam which is simply a chelated copper algaecide!

I got the information about using zinc in N2 for spas from the Zodiac N2 website in the About section on this page. Sounds like they need to update their website. I've seen other inconsistencies in terms of being chlorine-free vs. requiring some chlorine so this is not surprising. Thanks for clarifying what they meant by "powered" -- that it is an erosion feeder.

How in the heck are they controlling metal ion concentration with an erosion feeder? It seems to me that it would just continue to build up except for that lost from getting attached to cells that, with a clarifier, might get trapped in the filter which would be periodically cleaned.

I got my information right off the boxes that we have in the store that say they contain copper sulfate pentahydrate and silver nitrate! (BOTH the the pool AND spa cartridges.)

I can tell you this that the copper levels in both the pool and spa systems stay around .12 to .16 ppm in our customers that use them since we routinely test for copper and I have several customers that come in weekly for a water test.