A Disturbing Discovery (see Pictures)

[seligman]

Today I was draining the spa and here's what I saw inside the pump.

We have really hard water here. Balancing the water is a constant struggle. Chem Geek has helped me with this, but I'm afraid the damage is already done?

What am I seeing here? Is this scale? Notice it has also accumulated on the plastic.

[chem geek]

I looked back at your posts and didn't see the Calcium Hardness (CH) level. Did you measure that? You have a plaster spa so would want to have proper water balance saturated with calcium carbonate. Scale usually isn't colored -- it's white like plaster, but will feel rough. What you have looks more like precipitated copper staining as with copper hydroxide (see this Wiki link). This would occur if you've got copper in your water and the pH went up since that would precipitate the copper.

If the staining is copper, you can try dissolving it using ascorbic acid (yes, the stuff that's Vitamin C) and using a metal sequestrant to keep it in solution. However, you should check your water source to see if that's where the copper is coming from (pool stores can measure copper and iron or you can get Taylor K-1730 or K-1738) and if it is, then you might need to use a water softener or filter to remove it when filling your spa. Either that, or you'll need to use a lot of metal sequestrant every time you refill your spa.

If there isn't copper in your fill water, then it could have come from your spa gas heater if it uses a copper heat exchanger and your spa water got way too acidic at some point -- that sounds unlikely from your earlier posts.

Richard

[seligman]

I looked back at your posts and didn't see the Calcium Hardness (CH) level. Did you measure that? You have a plaster spa so would want to have proper water balance saturated with calcium carbonate. Scale usually isn't colored -- it's white like plaster, but will feel rough. What you have looks more like precipitated copper staining as with copper hydroxide (see this Wiki link). This would occur if you've got copper in your water and the pH went up since that would precipitate the copper.

If the staining is copper, you can try dissolving it using ascorbic acid (yes, the stuff that's Vitamin C) and using a metal sequestrant to keep it in solution. However, you should check your water source to see if that's where the copper is coming from (pool stores can measure copper and iron or you can get Taylor K-1730 or K-1738) and if it is, then you might need to use a water softener or filter to remove it when filling your spa. Either that, or you'll need to use a lot of metal sequestrant every time you refill your spa.

If there isn't copper in your fill water, then it could have come from your spa gas heater if it uses a copper heat exchanger and your spa water got way too acidic at some point -- that sounds unlikely from your earlier posts.

Richard

Thanks for the reply Richard.

Since the spa is currently drained, I measured the tap water from the kitchen sink, which, in the past, has been consistent with the water going into the spa. I had some surprising results.

pH: 7.5-7.6 (usually well over 8.0)

TA: 140ppm (usually well over 200ppm)

Calcium Hardness: 200ppm (usually 260-280 ppm)

What would cause the tap water to vary so much?

My city's water is from underground wells or from the Colorado River. I've been told that the well water is disinfected with chlorine, the river water is disinfected with chloramines. I think we get a blend at my house.

Our local newspaper said that fluoride would begin to be added to the Colorado River water by the end of October. Would this make a difference?

[seligman]

A couple things I forgot to say:

-The blueish stain on the plaster first appeared a couple months ago (I think). Not until today did I realize how bad it was. About the same time, the plaster started getting a little rough. Some hard brushing has helped the roughness.

-Will the ascorbic acid damage the plaster? Is there anything else I should know prior to using it?

I will have the water tested for copper.

[chem geek]

A pH 7.5, TA 140, CH 200 would result in a saturation index of around +0.1 which is close to ideal and would not cause scaling. Water that had a pH of 8.0, TA of 200, CH 270 would have a saturation index of around +0.8 and could very well scale. I don't know why the tap water is varying, but using natural sources for water will have it vary (as opposed to using reservoirs that are more stable). I wouldn't worry about the chlorine or chloramine used for the disinfection. The fluoride wouldn't cause any problem either.

If after filling your tub you tried to keep the pH lower, then I don't think you would have had scaling. Of course, using the tub and aerating the water has the pH go up so that would make scaling worse. At least now you know that by lowering the TA level you will be in better shape.

See this post for more info on using ascorbic acid for removal of stains. It won't harm the plaster (it's a weak acid and a reducing agent).

Richard

[seligman]

One last thing and I'll shut up.

I rubbed a Vitamin C tablet into some of the blue spots. Not immediately, but within 10-15 seconds, those areas turned brown and the blue spots seemed to dissipate somewhat. They weren't completely eliminated, but they seem less noticeable now. I'm not sure if the ascorbic acid did that, or if it was the abrasive properties of the Vitamin C tablet.

[seligman]

A pH 7.5, TA 140, CH 200 would result in a saturation index of around +0.1 which is close to ideal and would not cause scaling. Water that had a pH of 8.0, TA of 200, CH 270 would have a saturation index of around +0.8 and could very well scale. I don't know why the tap water is varying, but using natural sources for water will have it vary (as opposed to using reservoirs that are more stable). I wouldn't worry about the chlorine or chloramine used for the disinfection. The fluoride wouldn't cause any problem either.

If after filling your tub you tried to keep the pH lower, then I don't think you would have had scaling. Of course, using the tub and aerating the water has the pH go up so that would make scaling worse. At least now you know that by lowering the TA level you will be in better shape.

See this post for more info on using ascorbic acid for removal of stains. It won't harm the plaster (it's a weak acid and a reducing agent).

Richard

Thank you, I will let you know how it goes.

[TinyBubbles]

Do you use a product like metal gone? When we had a well and the water was full of metals and minerals, all of our faucets ended up looking like your spa.

[Sravaka]

Hi, this is my first post but I have been lurking around, reading alot and learning. I have also been talking to some people in Alaska about my water chemistry and one thing was metals because they have alot of them up there in their well water, so they are experienced, and I have some copper here in Oregon. What it comes down to for me is this: I would rather take something out of my water than add something to it. Remember Occam's Razor? I use a product called the First Step Clean-N-Fill. It screws onto the end of your garden hose and uses ion exchange resins, and 4 other different types of filtration, to remove metals and other junk you don't want in your water. I tested my water at the dealer both with and without using the prefilter and it got rid of ALL the metals in my water and delivers absolutely beautiful water into the spa that is TA and PH balanced as well. No water goes in my new Sundance Majesta unless it comes out of my First Step Clean-N-Fill period. I found them online at https://www.clearcreekspas.com/JPSWaterTreatment.html but they have recently raised their price on this item since I bought some a month ago. I told my local Sundance dealer about them and they now stock this item so I can buy it locally but I highly, highly recomend this product. Also: do not assume that your water supply will be the same all the time. My water here changes constantly the chlorine, ph, metals, TA etc are different every week because our water system switches automatically between deep, 300 foot down, old hard rock wells to shallower wells depending on resevoir levels and system usage/demand. I learned all this, and more, by calling my city water dept. Hope this helps.

-Sravaka

[seligman]

Remember my problems from a few months ago?

Well, I think I know what caused it. I'm both embarrassed and angry with myself.

About a year ago, I had some algae problems. I purchased a bottle of Mustard Algaecide (3.5% Copper). On the instructions, it says to add 10 ounces for every 10,000 gallons. My spa is approximately 600 gallons.

I always write the equivalent amount for 600 gallons on the container using a Sharpie marker. I wrote "6 ounces for the spa" when I meant to write ".6 ounces for the spa". I forgot the decimal point. As a result, the amount of algaecide I added a year ago was 10 TIMES too much. Although the water has been drained a few times since then, the water had excess copper for probably 3 months, which would explain the copper staining.

The ascorbic acid cleaned the plaster off nicely, but I have no idea what the pipes or heater looks like inside. Do you think the plumbing still has copper deposits? Everything works fine, but that's all I Know.

[chem geek]

Yikes! Well I'm glad you figured out what happened. As for copper that may have precipitated out elsewhere, it will generally form more readily at nice nucleation sites which generally means rougher surfaces like the plaster. It's less likely to have formed on smoother PVC or metal piping. Even if it did, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just keep in mind that after a fresh fill with water that has no copper in it, any copper still attached to surfaces can slowly redissolve back into the water. More acidic conditions will accelerate this, but I wouldn't worry about it unless you see some restaining of plaster you've already cleaned in which case you could consider using a metal sequestrant which will hold any dissolved copper in solution to prevent restaining.

Technically for restaining to occur after a fresh refill with water that has virtually no copper, the existing copper would have to dissolve to nearly saturate the water AND the pH would then have to rise in the water high enough for new staining to occur (from precipitating out the now saturated water). So my guess is that this is unlikely that your water will get resaturated with copper so quickly, but I can't really say for sure -- just keep an eye out for new stains.

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Yikes! Well I'm glad you figured out what happened. As for copper that may have precipitated out elsewhere, it will generally form more readily at nice nucleation sites which generally means rougher surfaces like the plaster. It's less likely to have formed on smoother PVC or metal piping. Even if it did, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just keep in mind that after a fresh fill with water that has no copper in it, any copper still attached to surfaces can slowly redissolve back into the water. More acidic conditions will accelerate this, but I wouldn't worry about it unless you see some restaining of plaster you've already cleaned in which case you could consider using a metal sequestrant which will hold any dissolved copper in solution to prevent restaining.

Technically for restaining to occur after a fresh refill with water that has virtually no copper, the existing copper would have to dissolve to nearly saturate the water AND the pH would then have to rise in the water high enough for new staining to occur (from precipitating out the now saturated water). So my guess is that this is unlikely that your water will get resaturated with copper so quickly, but I can't really say for sure -- just keep an eye out for new stains.

Richard

My husband took a look at your pics and he said you have some substantial damage. He said there is probabley damage to the heater and pump. The scale issues we see in the picture are not good. We would suggest swirl away to clean out the lines and using a scale/metal defender for awhile, along with getting the CH and PH in check at all times. Good luck and we hope the spa did not get to damaged.

[chem geek]

I presume Swirl Away is this stuff and is described more fully here. The directions say you use this product, circulate for 10 minutes (maybe it will take longer in your case given the amount of copper scale), then change the water. Thanks for correcting me about the heater/pump. If there was a full film of buildup on the heater, then it would be less efficient and could even burn out if heat wasn't transferred well enough. Unlike calcium carbonate scale, copper carbonate and copper hydroxide are more soluble at higher temperature so hopefully there is less buildup at the heater. From the description of what happened, it sounds like this is just excess copper and not traditional scale (hopefully).

The MSDS says it contains a surfactant blend, trisodium phosphate (TSP), iminodisuccinic acid tetrasodium salt, and sodium bicarbonate. The iminodisuccinic acid tetrasodium salt is a chelating agent to take metals including calcium and copper out of the water and is very fully described here. This sounds like a very good product. Thanks again for suggesting it.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I presume Swirl Away is this stuff and is described more fully here. The directions say you use this product, circulate for 10 minutes (maybe it will take longer in your case given the amount of copper scale), then change the water. Thanks for correcting me about the heater/pump. If there was a full film of buildup on the heater, then it would be less efficient and could even burn out if heat wasn't transferred well enough. Unlike calcium carbonate scale, copper carbonate and copper hydroxide are more soluble at higher temperature so hopefully there is less buildup at the heater. From the description of what happened, it sounds like this is just excess copper and not traditional scale (hopefully).

The MSDS says it contains a surfactant blend, trisodium phosphate (TSP), iminodisuccinic acid tetrasodium salt, and sodium bicarbonate. The iminodisuccinic acid tetrasodium salt is a chelating agent to take metals including calcium and copper out of the water and is very fully described here. This sounds like a very good product. Thanks again for suggesting it.

That is the product you pointed out above. It works great. For the buildup on this tub, I would leave it in for 24 hours, just go out and turn the jets on for 20 mins every few hours. Its a bit of work, but it may save your heater and pump.(make sure to remove filters, if you have sand filter or DE, follow the directions) We use it as part of our maintenance, not every fill like they say, usually 1 to 2 times per year(depending on customers care in their water chemistry)

[seligman]

When I added some Ascorbic Acid a few months ago, all of those copper deposits on the plaster and on the drain disappeared. Whether they disappeared from the insides of the pipes, I have no idea. Ever since those copper deposits showed up, I have never noticed a reduction in performance from the heater or the pumps.

I took your suggestion and bought a few bottles of Swirl Away off Ebay. One seller has them for $4.73 a bottle, plus a flat $6.00 shipping, no matter how many bottles you buy. I couldn't pass that deal up.

Do you know what the procedure is with DE filters? Do I need to do anything special before/after using Swirl Away?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I have never noticed a reduction in performance from the heater or the pumps.

Do you know what the procedure is with DE filters? Do I need to do anything special before/after using Swirl Away?

You should drain out the DE filter after swirl away use and clean your fingers(rinse them out) They may need to be cleaned anyway since the tub has this build up. Spring cleaning time! The directions on the bottle say to run the tub with jets on for an hour. I would do this a few times, super cleaning. When you drain the tub back out, you will see all kinds of crud and goo come out with the use of this. You may even notice better performance in the jets. How old is the tub?

You may not notice anything with the pump or heater, but that does not mean damage was not done. Keep an eye on things. Its better to catch a small problem early than have it become a big problem later! If you had those deposites disappear a few months ago and they are back, there is still copper coming from something. Lets hope its not the heat exchanger(I am guessing you have a gas heater) Good Luck