Help With 60 Amp 240v Spa Service

[AAaaaaah!]

I am sorry if this has been flogged before. I did a search, but did not find the specific answer I was looking for.

I have a new spa coming and the dealer reccomended a 60 Amp service for the spa (bascially so I could have both pumps and the heater on at the same time).

I have done some research and bought what I think I need, but have a question about the gauge wire for the ground (green) wire from the main panel to the spa disconnect (and from spa disconnect to the spa).

Details

Hammer-culter main panel.

BR260 circuit breaker

1 inch conduit (mix of flexible and hard, plastic)

60 AMP GFCI spa disconnect box

#6 AWG THHN conductors for L1 (black), L2 (red), and Neutral (white)

#10 AWG for ground (green)

I was told the #10 was correct for the ground wire, but wanted to make sure before I pulled everything. I would simply hate to be told I had the wrong ground wire size at inspection time. For the record, I am just a DIY type and have done electrical wiring, but have never done individual conductors in conduit before, thus have not had to worry about ground wire size as just used whatever was in the romex!

Thank you in advance for your answers!

[kengorman]

have a question about the gauge wire for the ground (green) wire from the main panel to the spa disconnect (and from spa disconnect to the spa).

60 AMP GFCI spa disconnect box

#6 AWG THHN conductors for L1 (black), L2 (red), and Neutral (white)

#10 AWG for ground (green)

I was told the #10 was correct for the ground wire, but wanted to make sure before I pulled everything.

You are fine - #10 awg is rated as a grounding (bonding) conductor for up to 60 amps. Please note that if you upsize your wiring and decide to go with #4 awg for your current conductors (for any reason, e.g. voltage drop across long wiring runs ), you must also increase your bonding conductor as well by the same percentage of increase.

According to the 2005 NEC Table 250.122 Sizing Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor which I've quoted below, 10 awg is allowable.

(A) General. The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor must be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the ampere rating of the circuit-protection device, but in no case is it required to be larger than the circuit conductors.

Table 250.122—Minimum Size Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor

Protection Rating.......CopperConductor

15A..........................14 AWG

20A...........................12 AWG

30—60A..................10 AWG

70—100A..................8 AWG

110—200A................6 AWG

225—300A................4 AWG

350—400A................3 AWG

450—500A................2 AWG

600A...........................1 AWG

700—800A.............1/0 AWG

1,000A.....................2/0 AWG

1,200A.....................3/0 AWG

HTH,

Ken

[AAaaaaah!]

You are fine - #10 awg is rated as a grounding (bonding) conductor for up to 60 amps. Please note that if you upsize your wiring and decide to go with #4 awg for your current conductors (for any reason, e.g. voltage drop across long wiring runs ), you must also increase your bonding conductor as well by the same percentage of increase.

According to the 2005 NEC Table 250.122 Sizing Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor which I've quoted below, 10 awg is allowable.

(A) General. The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor must be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the ampere rating of the circuit-protection device, but in no case is it required to be larger than the circuit conductors.

Table 250.122—Minimum Size Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor

Protection Rating.......CopperConductor

15A..........................14 AWG

20A...........................12 AWG

30—60A..................10 AWG

70—100A..................8 AWG

110—200A................6 AWG

225—300A................4 AWG

350—400A................3 AWG

450—500A................2 AWG

600A...........................1 AWG

700—800A.............1/0 AWG

1,000A.....................2/0 AWG

1,200A.....................3/0 AWG

HTH,

Ken

Thank you! This does help.

Rich

[AAaaaaah!]

OK. The spa arrived, I hooked it up. All running fine. The spa is a 3 wire 240, thus no load neutral is used. I bought wire and ran it before the tub arrived so just capped off the load neutral. The spa is a Sundance Cameo. Next question...the manual says to use minimum #6 conductors. This I did for both hot legs, but used a #10 bonding wire per NEC. Did I mess up on the ground (bonding) wire? Was I suppose to use a #6??

Thanks in advance for you help.

[Dr. Spa]

Just as a side note. There IS a difference, BIG DIFFERENCE between bonding and grounding. The two terms are NOT and should NOT be used interchangeably.

Bonding is the “permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed.” On the other hand, a ground is a “conducting connection, whether intentional or accidental, between an electrical circuit or equipment and the earth or to some conducting body that serves in place of the earth.”

Each of these are separate, and each requires a separate wire to accomplish it's task.

[reece]

You are fine - #10 awg is rated as a grounding (bonding) conductor for up to 60 amps. Please note that if you upsize your wiring and decide to go with #4 awg for your current conductors (for any reason, e.g. voltage drop across long wiring runs ), you must also increase your bonding conductor as well by the same percentage of increase.

According to the 2005 NEC Table 250.122 Sizing Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor which I've quoted below, 10 awg is allowable.

(A) General. The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor must be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the ampere rating of the circuit-protection device, but in no case is it required to be larger than the circuit conductors.

Table 250.122—Minimum Size Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor

Protection Rating.......CopperConductor

15A..........................14 AWG

20A...........................12 AWG

30—60A..................10 AWG

70—100A..................8 AWG

110—200A................6 AWG

225—300A................4 AWG

350—400A................3 AWG

450—500A................2 AWG

600A...........................1 AWG

700—800A.............1/0 AWG

1,000A.....................2/0 AWG

1,200A.....................3/0 AWG

HTH,

Ken

Thank you! This does help.

Rich

Hello,

Just bought a new Baja whitewater model 1067. It calls for 240v 50 amp. I hooked it this way but the gfi trips every other day. Sometimes when we have 8 people in it. sometimes when I have only 2. It trips with either one pump on or two pumps plus the heater. the other day I had 8 kids in it and it seemed like water was overflowing and then it started tripping. After 4 hours it worked fine.

My concern is that you mention about wire runs. I used 6 gage with 10 gage ground but my run from the main panel to subpanel is 90 feet. From the subpanel to the hot tub panel is another 15 feet. Same gage wire. Is my wire run too long? Also I placed the subpanel about 3 feet from the hot tub ( attched to the deck) Is this too close?

I really appreciate it.

Thanks

Reece

st charles, Il

[AAaaaaah!]

The electrical inspector was out yesterday. The job passed with flying colors. I knew #10 AWG ground was NEC compliant, but was worried more about manufacturer's requirments. I called my dealer and he told me that the ground wire should be per NEC. I also looked closely at the ground lugs in the control panel...not nearly big enough to accomdate #6 ground. The tub is working great.

Reece, I am having no tripping issues at all. I would suspect something other than the ground wire size for the tripping issues (unless your manufacturer required bigger than installed)...an bad GFCI, or bad connection on one or more conductors. I would check and make sure all lugs are tightened down well, and check any other wire connections (wire nuts, splices, etc) if present. (This is based soley on my experience with 120V GFCI circuits that have given me trouble in the past. I am NOT an electrician, just a DIY fellow).

[AAaaaaah!]

You are fine - #10 awg is rated as a grounding (bonding) conductor for up to 60 amps. Please note that if you upsize your wiring and decide to go with #4 awg for your current conductors (for any reason, e.g. voltage drop across long wiring runs ), you must also increase your bonding conductor as well by the same percentage of increase.

According to the 2005 NEC Table 250.122 Sizing Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor which I've quoted below, 10 awg is allowable.

(A) General. The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor must be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the ampere rating of the circuit-protection device, but in no case is it required to be larger than the circuit conductors.

Table 250.122—Minimum Size Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor

Protection Rating.......CopperConductor

15A..........................14 AWG

20A...........................12 AWG

30—60A..................10 AWG

70—100A..................8 AWG

110—200A................6 AWG

225—300A................4 AWG

350—400A................3 AWG

450—500A................2 AWG

600A...........................1 AWG

700—800A.............1/0 AWG

1,000A.....................2/0 AWG

1,200A.....................3/0 AWG

HTH,

Ken

Thank you! This does help.

Rich

Hello,

Just bought a new Baja whitewater model 1067. It calls for 240v 50 amp. I hooked it this way but the gfi trips every other day. Sometimes when we have 8 people in it. sometimes when I have only 2. It trips with either one pump on or two pumps plus the heater. the other day I had 8 kids in it and it seemed like water was overflowing and then it started tripping. After 4 hours it worked fine.

My concern is that you mention about wire runs. I used 6 gage with 10 gage ground but my run from the main panel to subpanel is 90 feet. From the subpanel to the hot tub panel is another 15 feet. Same gage wire. Is my wire run too long? Also I placed the subpanel about 3 feet from the hot tub ( attched to the deck) Is this too close?

I really appreciate it.

Thanks

Reece

st charles, Il

My understanding is the subpanel (I am assuming you are talking about the GFCI spa disconnect) must be at least 5 feet away from the tub. Before I even pulled a permit, I talked with the local electrical inspector to make sure I was doing stuff right (I did forget to ask him about ground wire size, thus my question here) and that was one of the requirments he told me about.

[kengorman]

I hooked it this way but the gfi trips every other day.

Is your disconnect a GFCI disconnect with a regular breaker in your main panel?

Often, GFCI disconnects on new installations are because of mis-wiring. Are your neutral and ground kept separate in your disconnect panel? The ground wires from both your main panel and the spa should be bonded together in the disconnect panel (separately from the neutral).

Also I placed the subpanel about 3 feet from the hot tub ( attched to the deck) Is this too close?

Yes - it's too close. NEC calls for a dis-connect to be located no closer than 5 feet and within line of sight.

Ken

[reece]

I hooked it this way but the gfi trips every other day.

Is your disconnect a GFCI disconnect with a regular breaker in your main panel?

Often, GFCI disconnects on new installations are because of mis-wiring. Are your neutral and ground kept separate in your disconnect panel? The ground wires from both your main panel and the spa should be bonded together in the disconnect panel (separately from the neutral).

Also I placed the subpanel about 3 feet from the hot tub ( attched to the deck) Is this too close?

Yes - it's too close. NEC calls for a dis-connect to be located no closer than 5 feet and within line of sight.

Ken

Ken,

My disconnect is a gfci disconnect with a regular breaker in main panel. My neutral is attached to the neutral bus bar. My ground to the ground bus bar. I bought the Cutler Hammer gfci hot tub kit.

I am thinking of replacing the gfci to see if that resolves my problem.

Thanks again

Reece

[Kent Ohio]

I hooked it this way but the gfi trips every other day.

Is your disconnect a GFCI disconnect with a regular breaker in your main panel?

Often, GFCI disconnects on new installations are because of mis-wiring. Are your neutral and ground kept separate in your disconnect panel? The ground wires from both your main panel and the spa should be bonded together in the disconnect panel (separately from the neutral).

Also I placed the subpanel about 3 feet from the hot tub ( attched to the deck) Is this too close?

Yes - it's too close. NEC calls for a dis-connect to be located no closer than 5 feet and within line of sight.

Ken

I am attempting to wire mine up, and the problem is to have the disconnect "In Sight" its going to be difficult to have it more than 2 or 3 feet away from the hottub. The hottub pretty much fills the area its in.

[kengorman]

I am attempting to wire mine up, and the problem is to have the disconnect "In Sight" its going to be difficult to have it more than 2 or 3 feet away from the hottub. The hottub pretty much fills the area its in.

Hi Kent,

If you have your tub inspected, it won't pass unless the disconnect is at least 5 feet away.

NEC 680.12 states:

A maintenance disconnecting means is required for a permanently installed pool, storable pool, outdoor spa, outdoor hot tub, or fountain equipment, other than lighting for these water bodies. The maintenance disconnecting means must be readily accessible and located within sight from the permanently installed pool, storable pool, outdoor spa, outdoor hot tub, or fountain equipment.

Is your tub surrounded on all 4 sides by walls within 5 feet? I've seen installations where the disconnect is mounted on a 4x4 post somewhere on the property away from the house. It is then "disguised" with landscaping, shrubbery, etc. while still being readily accessible and within line-of-sight.

Can you describe more specifically why you can't locate a disconnect further away than 5 feet? A diagram or picture may help. I'm sure someone could suggest a solution to help with the issue.

Regards,

Ken

[Kent Ohio]

Well, there is one wall that is further than 5, and thats where we're gong to put the SPA box, but now we have to wire up and over down around a door. Just a much larger pain than we wanted to deal with, but I guess we have no choice.

Also, I've seen discussions about the #8 bonding wire, but my understanding is in our county, that is optional. Most just ground back through the main panel??

[Kent Ohio]

Here's all the code requirments I ran in to in our area(Ohio)

* SPA box must be at least 5 feet from the water, not the tub, from the water in the tub.

* Bottom of SPA box must be 24" to 44" up from ground.

* SPA box(or disconnect) must be "in-site" from hottub.

* Inside the house, run 6/3w-ground.

* Outside the house, single stranded #6, 3 wires, two hot, one ground. Not allowed to run 6/3w-g outside.

* Outside the house, must be in watertite/weatherproof conduit, flex or rigid. I went with rigid PVC. Glue's up easily.

* Must have GFCI protection.

I think thats everything I ran into.