Bromine Question

[MunnyGuy]

My wife and I used the tub twice last night. Upon exiting the tub I used a Test strip. Reading showed pH and Alklinity to be ideal but the Bromine level is Nil (strip did not change colour). I looked at my Bromine system and it has a 2 part system:

The kit is RENDEZVOUS

Part A is Sodium Bromide.....32% (Liquid)

Part B is Potassium Monopersulfate.....32% (powder)

When I filled up the tub I added these 2 in the ratio recommended by my dealer. I then brought in a sample and they said I needed to add:

Calcium Hardness

Total Alkalinity UP

Since then all levels are optimum except the Bromine level. What or when should I add chems? Is there an easier Bromine dispersal? I understand that DiChlor would "Burn off" over night but I thought Bromine should maintain a fairly constant level.

I give the floor to you wonderful Chem geeks that I used to make fun of in High School!

[SugarBear]

I'm sure that Waterbear or Chemgeek will chime in with the Official word (they are the experts). You should have a Bromine floater with pucks in it. The bromine never gets used up, you just need to activate it with shock (MPS or bleach). They will tell you, as I have learned, to use regular household bleach to shock the bromine into action. Get yourself a good test kit for your water testing. The strips are not reliable. Depending on the size of your tub, you should be adding a small bit of bleach to get your bromine level up to between 4-6 ppm. If you have ozone then the level should be between 1 - 3 ppm. You can do a search and find that they have answered this same question hundreds of times. Good luck! It'll get easier as time goes on.

[MunnyGuy]

I think that was my problem. Here is how I understand it:

1- During the first fill I added a large dose (as per instructions) of Bromine and Activate (Shock component). When testing with strip after shock, Bromine tests in Normal- Normal high.

2- Testing the next day before entering pH and Alkalinity are good but bromine reading is none existent. So Bromine is there just not gonna show readings until activated? So after using tub (450 Gallon or 1800 l) add 2 TBLSPOONS of ACTIVATE. This raises the Bromine level to kill all the nasties.

3- In structions indicate I should add more BROMINE LIQUID every week to keep the levels available to be SHOCKED up.

Is this correct?

If so:

Bromine part of test strip will only indicate BROMINE when it has been activated?

How long should we wait to use Tub after Adding the Activate/Shock?

[waterbear]

The bromine liquid is just sodium bromide. This is not your sanitizer. When you add an oxidizer (chlorine, MPS, or ozone) it converts the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid, your santizer that is measurable with your strips or a test kit. If your bromine is low then add oxidizer to bring it up and shock about once a week. If you are not using bromine tabs in a floater then you do have to add the sodium bromide weekly because it eventually gets converted into bromates which won't turn back into bromine sanitizer.

You can enter the tub as long as your bromine levels are below 10 ppm but it's best to keep them between 6-8 ppm.

Also, bromine sanitizer will 'burn off' in about 30 minutes or so when exposed to direct sunlight and there will be none left in the water.

[itabb]

Ahh, so that explains why I see almost no bromine in the water with the DPD test. It all burned off. Added 2 cups of 6% bleach to activate (well, guess it shocked) and now the levels are through the roof for the night. I have my brominator set to 3. How do I figure out if 3 is right or if it should be 2 or 1 or 4 if the bromine levels are going to flucuate so much and then go off the chart when I shock. Also, how much chlorine should I use when I just want to reactivate some bromine after a day in the sun?

[waterbear]

Correct, bromine cannot be stabilized against UV light like chlorine can.

A couple of things to consider. If you are going to use bromine with a floater or bromine feeder (3 step bromine system) then you add the sodium bromide on filling the tub, shock with bleach (about 2/3 cup per 500 gallons for the 6%) and put in your floater or adjust your brominator. You want to adjust the floater or brominator to maintain a bromine reading of around 6 ppm. The bromine tabs add both bromine and chlorine to the spa at the same time. Shock weekly with the bleach and don't enter the tub until the bromine level is below 10 ppm. Drain and refill every 3-4 months and start over with the sodium bromide. (I personally like the HTH BromStart, it comes in packets premeasured for each 250 gallons of water.)

If the spa is getting a lot of sun and is not covered you might want to consider switching to chlorine. If the spa gets a lot of sun you would want to maintain a CYA level of about 20 ppm (30 PPM MAX!) and maintain a FC reading in the tub of 4-6 ppm. Shock with chlorine when combined chlorine is over .5 ppm to a shock level of 15 ppm FC and let the level drop to below 10 ppm before entering tub. Do not use dichlor since it will cause your CYA levels to rise rapidly and make your chlorine less effective as a sanitizer and could allow pseudomonas to grow in the water. This is the bacteria that causes 'hot tub itch'.

[itabb]

Yes, I am seriously considering switching to Chlorine since I keep the spa around 80 right now and I don't have a spa cover. I did the proper start up procedure so I have a good bank. Regarding switching to chlorine, why not use diclor in the beginning to get the CYA level to 20 instead of the conditioner. The conditioner is so expensive. $20 for 4 lbs. No idea what dichlor costs.

Regarding the current situation, I got home last night and Bromine was basically 0. So I put in 1 cup of Chlorine (2nd night in a row), and now (this am) the reading is 40ppm (I'm guessing of bromine). Is the bromine from the tabs cumulative, even in sunlight? So the longer I run the spa with the brominator, the more bromine bank I have? Maybe I should be using just a bit of chlorine every night and stop using the brominator?

I've give you more readings, but at 40ppm, everything else bleaches out. Taylor K-2005 kit.

[itabb]

Waterbear, I have another question. 24 hours prior, I shocked with a cup of chlorine in the evening. 12 hours prior, which is the next morning, my bromine level reported over 40ppm. The spa spent the day exposed to the sun and now it is 8pm. Bromine level is 4ppm. Based on the shock, I think I have a good bromine bank, unless the sun burns off the bromine bank. Since 4ppm is at the low end, could I use a bit of chlorine to raise it up to 6ppm? How much chlorine would I add? Or would I increase the number of holes in my floater because the sun burned out my bromine bank?

[icdoo]

I am having a very difficult time proving my bromine generator is working and knowing my hot tub is safe. I have been using AquaChek Red with the following setup:

- Arctic Spa 1400 litres

- GENESIS AUTOMATIC BROMINE GENERATOR (salt water system)

I have adjusted all the levels as per Arctic Spa’s instructions but there is no Bromine reading on my AquaChek Red test strips. I am told by my dealer that this is normal and I will just have to trust them that the Bromide is there. For the safety of my family measurements are required to prove the sanitizer is operating. Is this a true statement by my dealer?

I can not confirm if my system is functioning correctly or if the AquaChek Red does not detect the bromine. Regardless I am very concerned about my sanitizer levels and need guidance. Any input would be appreciated.

[waterbear]

I would adjust the floater to maintain your bromine level between shocking. The tabs will add both bromide and chlorine to the water. When you shock you want to add enough chlorine or non chlorine oxidizer to raise the bromine levels above 10 ppm but you don't have to go overboard! about 2/3 to 3/4 up of ultra bleach should do it for each 500 gallons or 3/4 to 1 cup of regular (5.25%) bleach. Remember it's a hot tub, not rocket science!

I assume you are doing dilutions to test high sanitizer levels. Remember that you lose accuracy with the dilutions so you are only getting an approximate sanitizer level. DPD is not that easy to read to begin with and most men have trouble telling the shades of red apart. Women are better at it for some reason. This is one of the reasons I like the FAS-DPD test much better.

[waterbear]

I am having a very difficult time proving my bromine generator is working and knowing my hot tub is safe. I have been using AquaChek Red with the following setup:

- Arctic Spa 1400 litres

- GENESIS AUTOMATIC BROMINE GENERATOR (salt water system)

I have adjusted all the levels as per Arctic Spa's instructions but there is no Bromine reading on my AquaChek Red test strips. I am told by my dealer that this is normal and I will just have to trust them that the Bromide is there. For the safety of my family measurements are required to prove the sanitizer is operating. Is this a true statement by my dealer?

A few points you might want to explore. Aquachek makes a titrator strip to test your sodium bromide levels (very similar to their salt test strips). You might want to get some to make sure you have the correct amount of sodium bromide in your water. If it is not in the right range your unit will not function.

Also, how many hours a day are you running it? Pioner H2O Technologies, the manufacturer, recommend a minimum of 4 hours a day and possbily more. It can take a few days of time for the bromine to reach levels that can be tested.

Is the tub exposed to sunlight? Bromine will 'burn off' in sunlight in a a matter of about half an hour. There is really no way the genterator can keep up with this and you will be showing no bromine in the tub. If you do not have a cover on the tub you should get one if it gets any sunlight. Bromine cannot be stabilized against UV light like chlorine can.

If you are not testing a residual bromine level of at least 4 ppm (6 ppm is better) then the water is NOT sanitized! Strips would certainly be able to show this level but I would suggest getting a better test kit that uses liquid reagents. They Taylor K-2106 would be my first choice but even a 'cheapie 2 way tester' for chorine/bromine and pH that uses OTO reagent (turns yellow in the presence of chlorine or bromine) is better than the strips, IMHO. IF there is any bromine (actually hypobromous acid) the test reagent WILL turn yellow! If it does not you have no bromine in the tub!

I can not confirm if my system is functioning correctly or if the AquaChek Red does not detect the bromine. Regardless I am very concerned about my sanitizer levels and need guidance. Any input would be appreciated.

If you are not testing any bromine in the tub then either the unit is not functioning properly, your water chemistry is off (check your sodium bromide levels and your pH!), or your bromine is being destroyed by UV light from the sun. You can try 'shocking' the tub with MPS (non chlorine shock) and wait about 30 minutes and test for bromine. If you have non at that point then there is no sodium bromide in the water. If you don't have the proper level you can't produce bormine! If you test bromine after shocking then either the unit is not functioning properly or your bromine is being burned off by the sun. If your spa is not covered and gets sun try turning the fitration system on at sundown and let it generate all night. Test in the morning. If you test bromine then you know it's working but the bromine is being destroyed. How high is your calcium. High calcium levels can cause scale to deposit on the cell and stop bromine production, even with 'self cleaning' cells such as the Genesis has.

Too low a sodium bromide level and the cell won't generate, too high a sodium bromide level and the cell won't generate. You have to have this in the correct range (around 2500 ppm) for it to work properly. I believe this particular unit stops produces at a lever above 3500 ppm. I don't know the low salt cut off point.

[icdoo]

I am running the tub for on a filter cycle of 8 hours a day, I dont belive the arctic spa can run that long in the heat as it produces too much heat and shuts down. I keep it covered all the time. Should I be adding refresh or boost?

[icdoo]

My salt levels are good. I have never been able to get the bromine level up in the year I have owned it.

[itabb]

If I used Chlorine as a sanitizer in my spa, and had a CYA of 30ppm and a FC level of 4, then would it all burn off in the sunlight by the end of the day or do you think I'd have some left? What is the burn rate you would estimate? And what is the FC level I would want to maintain?

[waterbear]

If I used Chlorine as a sanitizer in my spa, and had a CYA of 30ppm and a FC level of 4, then would it all burn off in the sunlight by the end of the day or do you think I'd have some left? What is the burn rate you would estimate?

No way to really estimate. Depends on too many factors such as amount of sunlight it gets, number of bathers, etc.

And what is the FC level I would want to maintain?

With 30 PPM CYA I would keep the tub at about 6 ppm or slightly higher. Don't let it go below 4 ppm. You would probably have to add chlorine to it daily to maintain the FC level. Is your spa heated all the time or only when you use it? that would also make a difference.

[waterbear]

My salt levels are good. I have never been able to get the bromine level up in the year I have owned it.

I would contact Pioner H2O Technologies since they are the manufacturer of the Genesis unit. I would guess the unit is defective if you know for sure that your chemical levels are good.

[itabb]

I have another bromine question. I had to leave my spa exposed to the sun today, and this evening, my BR levels from DPD kit showed almost 0. Based on my rough experience, it seems if I add 6oz of 6% Clorox bleach, that increases my bromine levels to about (if not more than) 6ppm on the DPD test. Is this ok to do or am I going to have a problem?

The night before, BR was at 4 and I added 2oz of Clorox to get to 6ppm.

I leave my floater at 1 because it is enough when I leave my spa covered. And it can't keep up at any level when it is exposed. My spa is 500 gallons.