High phosphates. Can’t solve it

[TTUHoopsFans]

Extremely high phosphates in hot tub.

What on earth am I doing wrong?  I’ve had this problem ever since I got the tub over 2 months ago and I’ve refilled it 4 times now and the source water is phopsphate free.  I try to be careful and shower before getting in (not always though) and we really rinse our swimsuits to get detergents out, or just go without one often.  Anyways, I just checked my phosphates and we are at like 3000/4000 ppb. I’ve used spa guards phosphate remover (one dose) but it barely put a dent in it, am I supposed to use this stuff over and over until it’s zero?  I also don’t want total dissolves solids to get too high from always adding chemicals. Anyways, is there something that’s obvious that I’m doing wrong?  Because I can’t figure it out and have spent probably 20-30 solid hours researching this online.   Or does everyone have high phosphates in hot tubs and just lives with it?  The manufacturer told me that phosphates in a hot tub don’t really matter, since algae won’t grow in it due to them being covered most of the days and algae need sunlight.   Thanks.

[castletonia]

I believe most stain & scale products contain phosphates as do some filter cleaners.  I just refilled my hot tub last week and my tap water had phosphates around 800 ppb.  I use Natural Chemistry's phosphate remover which is identical to the SpaGuard one and then I use Natural Chemistry Cleanse Weekly to keep the phosphates down.  FYI, I sell hot tubs.  When I sell a saltwater hot tub, or a hot tub using the @ease system by Frog, then I care about phosphates because they higher they are the less effective both systems are.  If you don't have either system, or care about using the least amount of chlorine possible, then the phosphate level probably won't matter.

Phosphates are a nutrient source for bacteria and algae.  High levels of phosphates can deplete chlorine levels more rapidly and when there is a lack of sanitizer, bacteria and algae can grow quicker.  Just because there isn't sunlight doesn't mean algae won't grow, especially when you have 100 degree water.

I'm not going to tell you whether you should or shouldn't care about phosphates.  People have owned hot tubs for 40+ years without caring about phosphates.  My experience with any of the mineral systems (Frog + Nature2) and saltwater systems is that they work better when phosphates are low or not present.  When using a chlorine or bromine system only and not trying to get away with the absolute minimum, then I see less reason to care.

[TTUHoopsFans]

Thank you. I do have a ozone/salt water system.   I guess I’ll try to get it down with the spa guard stuff.  I can’t imagine how many doses it’s going to take to get it down to less than 125ppb though. 
 

also, my chlorine levels have been high lately. Around 5+ppm and the salt water system manual says it should only be 0.5 - 1.5 because the ozone does a lot of the work.  I have been running the filtration for about 5-6 hours a day, especially when adding the spa gaurd phosphate remover stuff.  If I cut that down to 1-2 hours per day will my chlorine levels go down?  Or do I need to remove some water and add fresh to bring the salt levels down?  Currently, I’m at the salt water systems recommended 2500ppm or so. 

[castletonia]

I would start by adding the 3oz dosage since your phosphates are over 1,000 ppb.  What kind of hot tub do you have?  I wouldn't reduce the filter duration, I would reduce the salt system output level so it produces less chlorine.  If your salt levels are where the system wants them to be there is no reason to lower it.  If your chlorine is at 5ppm I wouldn't worry about it, thats not very high.  

[TTUHoopsFans]

3 hours ago, castletonia said:

I would start by adding the 3oz dosage since your phosphates are over 1,000 ppb.  What kind of hot tub do you have?  I wouldn't reduce the filter duration, I would reduce the salt system output level so it produces less chlorine.  If your salt levels are where the system wants them to be there is no reason to lower it.  If your chlorine is at 5ppm I wouldn't worry about it, thats not very high.  

Thanks.  I added the 3 oz last night and will test again tonight.  I have a Dr. Wellness X-6 and it is 350 gallons.  It has a Prozone CSS5 ozone/salt system.  For my particular salt system, the only way to reduce the chlorine output is to reduce the salt levels (From manual: "CSS5-1: Chlorine levels are adjusted by increasing or decreasing the salt level in the spa."  This model does not have the controls where you can adjust the output, their more expensive model does have this and I don't have that model).  Yes, chlorine is at 5ppm but the manual says it should be 0.5 - 1.5ppm (https://www.prozoneint.com/manuals/201987 - CSS 5 Installation Manual 11-10-09.pdf).   

I personally don't care about the phosphates just as long as everything else is working.  A few weeks ago, we did have some scale and floating specs which I think was phosphate calcium scale...  

[TTUHoopsFans]

If I keep PH low (7.8 or lower), calcium hardness in range (150-250), but phosphates high, will the phosphates effectively not be an issue (regarding scale on surfaces, scale build up on heater and salt water chlorine generator)?

[TTUHoopsFans]

On 10/13/2020 at 11:37 AM, castletonia said:

I would start by adding the 3oz dosage since your phosphates are over 1,000 ppb.  What kind of hot tub do you have?  I wouldn't reduce the filter duration, I would reduce the salt system output level so it produces less chlorine.  If your salt levels are where the system wants them to be there is no reason to lower it.  If your chlorine is at 5ppm I wouldn't worry about it, thats not very high.  

Tested my tap water and zero phosphates.  Only thing I can think of is it is coming from me and my wife.  It’s not practical to shower fully head to toe every time we use the hot tub, so I think it’s coming from my wife’s skin and the lotions/moisturizers she uses.  Even if she put them on the night before, I’m sure it’s still on her skin?  I can’t believe more people don’t have high phosphates in their tubs.  They have to but just don’t know about it or test for it.  Impossible everyone sterilizes themselves perfectly before getting in.  Impossible I tell you! 
 

Also I’ve added multiple doses of the SpaGuard phosphate remover, cleaned the filter after each treatment, etc, and I still can’t get levels to 1,000 or less.  I must have a TON of phosphates.  

1) Will phosphates actually affect the efficiency / operating of the salt water system / salt cell?

 

2) If so, how often should I thoroughly clean the salt cell to retain efficiency and will this basically solve any problems with my high phosphate levels, so that high phosphates don't even matter (as long as the salt cell is clean)?

 

3) Will high phosphate levels affect any other key water measurements (Alkalinity, PH, Calcium Hardness, Sanitizer levels)?

 

4) Are there any other concerns to keep in mind with high phosphates?  The hot tub is covered 95% of the time, and we typically only use it at night, so it does not receive too much sunlight when uncovered (maybe 1 hour a day or so).

 

5) When does it become that I have added too many chemicals and things to the hot tub to where the total dissolved solids are too high?  I feel like all this tinkering with alkalinity, PH, phosphates, etc is over time adding lots of things to the tub and I wonder if I need to drain and refill more often... 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cmann603]

I am in the same boat with Phosphates! I got a Master TS8.25 in May and have drained and filled 4 times now and ready again since stupid phosphates keep climbing up. 

I add 1oz stain and scale/metal out weekly, since when I go to add either Dichlor or MPS, the powder turns greenish brown. Local place noted metals. I say BS. Something else since their test shows 0 for copper/iron. 

I have a well with 0 metals and 0 phosphates so it's not coming from there.  

They were 4k and all I did was add some Sodium Thio (clump of Dichlor fell in tub) so had to immediately lower bromine/chlorine.
Had water tested and now at 5k! How???
pH, TA, TH, all perfect. My test strip matches the perfect one on the front of the pacakge!
  
ut only about 1 oz. 
I uses bromine and have tried the ecoPur also.  Water will be clear and all then suddenly overnight just turns to green.
Adding any chemical and it gets greener. Adding metal out and it turned into something on St Patty's day. 

[Cmann603]

I am in the same boat with Phosphates! I got a Master TS8.25 in May and have drained and filled 4 times now and ready again since stupid phosphates keep climbing up. 

I add 1oz stain and scale/metal out weekly, since when I go to add either Dichlor or MPS, the powder turns greenish brown. Local place noted metals. I say BS. Something else since their test shows 0 for copper/iron. 

I have a well with 0 metals and 0 phosphates so it's not coming from there.  

They were 4k and all I did was add some Sodium Thio (clump of Dichlor fell in tub) so had to immediately lower bromine/chlorine.
Had water tested and now at 5k! How???
pH, TA, TH, all perfect. My test strip matches the perfect one on the front of the pacakge!
  
ut only about 1 oz. 
I uses bromine and have tried the ecoPur also.  Water will be clear and all then suddenly overnight just turns to green.
Adding any chemical and it gets greener. Adding metal out and it turned into something on St Patty's day. 

[TTUHoopsFans]

2 hours ago, Cmann603 said:

I am in the same boat with Phosphates! I got a Master TS8.25 in May and have drained and filled 4 times now and ready again since stupid phosphates keep climbing up. 

I add 1oz stain and scale/metal out weekly, since when I go to add either Dichlor or MPS, the powder turns greenish brown. Local place noted metals. I say BS. Something else since their test shows 0 for copper/iron. 

I have a well with 0 metals and 0 phosphates so it's not coming from there.  

They were 4k and all I did was add some Sodium Thio (clump of Dichlor fell in tub) so had to immediately lower bromine/chlorine.
Had water tested and now at 5k! How???
pH, TA, TH, all perfect. My test strip matches the perfect one on the front of the pacakge!
  
ut only about 1 oz. 
I uses bromine and have tried the ecoPur also.  Water will be clear and all then suddenly overnight just turns to green.
Adding any chemical and it gets greener. Adding metal out and it turned into something on St Patty's day. 

Not sure if this helps, but I received a response back from my hot tub manufacturer about my specific problems with phosphates (I have a salt system):

2) Phosphates: From our previous conversations, I believe you told me, that at the end of the day phosphates don't really matter in a hot tub and I shouldn't worry about it.  Every time I go to Leslie's, I get extremely high phosphates readings of 3-4,000+.  I've read and researched that high phosphates can affect the efficiency of the salt cell generating the chlorine, so I guess that is the only reason why I care.  However, like you said, it is just not practical for my wife and I to completely shower from head to toe to remove lotions, sunscreen, dirt, etc each and every time we use the hot tub.  If I had to guess, I imagine a lot of the phosphates come from my wife's skin, she puts lotion on every night and I'm sure that stays on her skin until the next time she showers the next day. I would not worry about the phosphates in the hot tub.  It is truly unavoidable.  You can use Spa Perfect once a week which will help biodegrade those soaps, oils, lotions, etc.  I know that certain types of phosphates can calcify, however, unless you notice a substantial unusual buildup of calcium, I wouldn’t be concerned.  As long as you are using your Stain and Scale Control, you should be fine. 

 

I did end up using this product called SpaGuard Phosphate Remover just for the heck of it.  I've applied multiple doses to the hot tub over a period of time (as per the instructions and cleaning out the filter after each treatment), and nothing seems to lower the amount of phosphates.  So, this constant high level of phosphates must be from me and my wife somehow.  Here is the product I used with no real success: Remove Phosphate from Spas and Hot Tubs. This is completely up to you.  Being in the industry for quite some time, I can tell you that I have yet to see a successful phosphate remover for portable hot tubs. 

 

<image001.png>   <image004.png> <image007.jpg> Remove Phosphate from Spas and Hot Tubs

 

 

So my questions that I have now regarding phosphates are:

 

1) Will phosphates actually affect the efficiency / operating of the salt water system / salt cell? They should not if you are using the Stain and Scale Control.

 

2) If so, how often should I thoroughly clean the salt cell to retain efficiency and will this basically solve any problems with my high phosphate levels, so that high phosphates don't even matter (as long as the salt cell is clean)? Only clean your cell when it is needed.  This is one of the times that you do not want to clean something just as part of a regular maintenance routine.  

 

3) Will high phosphate levels affect any other key water measurements (Alkalinity, PH, Calcium Hardness, Sanitizer levels)? No, they should not.

 

4) Are there any other concerns to keep in mind with high phosphates?  The hot tub is covered 95% of the time, and we typically only use it at night, so it does not receive too much sunlight when uncovered (maybe 1 hour a day or so). Not in a portable hot tub.

 

5) When does it become that I have added too many chemicals and things to the hot tub to where the total dissolved solids are too high?  I feel like all this tinkering with alkalinity, PH, phosphates, etc is over time adding lots of things to the tub and I wonder if I need to drain and refill more often... Total Dissolved solids refers to salts and other minerals in the water.  When you have a salt water system we no longer look at TDS because you have physically added salt to the water.  TDS is also not something we typically look at in hot tubs unless you are using well water to fill.  TDS is the way I would be able to determine age of water in swimming pools.  In a hot tub, you would never leave the water in there long enough for this to be a factor.

 

[castletonia]

8 hours ago, Cmann603 said:

I am in the same boat with Phosphates! I got a Master TS8.25 in May and have drained and filled 4 times now and ready again since stupid phosphates keep climbing up. 

I add 1oz stain and scale/metal out weekly, since when I go to add either Dichlor or MPS, the powder turns greenish brown. Local place noted metals. I say BS. Something else since their test shows 0 for copper/iron. 

I have a well with 0 metals and 0 phosphates so it's not coming from there.  

They were 4k and all I did was add some Sodium Thio (clump of Dichlor fell in tub) so had to immediately lower bromine/chlorine.
Had water tested and now at 5k! How???
pH, TA, TH, all perfect. My test strip matches the perfect one on the front of the pacakge!
  
ut only about 1 oz. 
I uses bromine and have tried the ecoPur also.  Water will be clear and all then suddenly overnight just turns to green.
Adding any chemical and it gets greener. Adding metal out and it turned into something on St Patty's day. 

If water is turning green either there is copper in the water reacting with either chlorine/bromine or MPS or there is nasty stuff in the water that needs to be killed.  If it was turning brown then it could either be manganese or nasty stuff in the water.  Most stain & scale products take time to work.  I've been advised that the time to work can be as much as 5 days depending on how much of the metal is in the water.  

Regarding the testing.  My water tester at my store does not test for manganese.  I had 3 pools turn a brownish purple color this summer and after discussing the water analysis with Biolab I was advised that it was manganese.  YMMV.

If your source water really doesn't have any phosphates, then the source is likely either the stain & scale product you are using or possibly a filter cleaner.  To my knowledge, Natural Chemistry is one of the few stain & scale products that use a phosphate free formula. 

If the phosphates are causing a problem, then address them.  If they are not, leave them.  Just remember that when using a phosphate remover you will need to pull your filters and clean them within 48 hours of adding the phosphate remover.

[Cmann603]

Thanks for comments. I agree as when I went Tuesday to have water checked, 3500. All I did was neutralize Br with 99.9% Sodium Thiosulfate, add 1 oz Chlorox phosphate out and clean both filters with the spray. Thursday phosphates were 5000 so filter cleaner must be it.

 I think I'll get some new filters and do the dishwashing soap soak method rotating filters. Water is nice and clear and just high phosphates. I'll drain and fill this w/e when it warms back up.