Spa Newbie (Many Questions)

[ztbishop]

.

[waterbear]

Greetings, and thanks for the wealth of knowledge you've already provided!

Let me appologize ahead of time if many of these questions are already answered, but I really did look.

I aquired a home 6 months ago with a broken down Royal Spa (390 gallons) and decided to fix her up...replaced the pumps & ozonator, ran a bottle of spa purge, re-filled, ran 2 cups bleach, then a gallon white vinigar...rinsed, and refilled. my cheap way of sanitizing it.

I use a bromine floater, and keep one tab in it (keeps bromine around 2)...I'm the only one using it.

I also shock weekly with MPS.

A bromine level of 2 ppm is really too low.

Now for the Questions / Concerns

1. I did replace the Ozone generator from the manufacturer...contains UV light, very warm to the touch. Using one of the ozone testers from spadepot (blue glass tube that bleaches white when in the ozone line), it took 10 minutes to bleach the stick that should have taken 30 seconds...I assume this is because the ozone is running 24/7 through the SMALL circulation pump, and goes at a slower speed than other tubs that run on a timer? (I'm assuming this is how some other models work)...mine uses the small pump 24/7, no computers.

UV based ozone generators really don't do much. It's more of a selling feature than a real ozone generator that uses corona dishcarge and a drying tube.

2. Please advise if any of this is bogus...

Blue spa clarifier...Royal Spa tech told me to STAY AWAY from it, for it removes stuff that should stay in the water.

Enzyme (Scum-Out), he told me to only use if it REALLY needs it, hopefully never (the bottle says use weekly, as does leslies pools)

Metal Protector - he told me to only use on initial fill-up (bottle says to use weekly)

Stain & Scale - he agreed with the bottle - use weekly.

Calcium - He said not to add any...I went ahead and added "about" 12 Tablespoons to reach a hardness of 100 (tested it) I filled my spa through a water softener...I've heard that anything under 100 can eat parts or cause excess foam.

Most additives are not necessary. If you have low calcium you don't need stain and scale. If you don't have metals you don't need metal remover. If you maintain your water you don't need enzymes and clarifiers. Dealers and supply stores like to recommend these things because it increases their sales and added to their bottom line.

What you DO need is a good test kit such as a Taylor K-2106 for bromine.

If you are filling from a water softener you will not have metals in your water, btw, and I would agree to add enough calcium to bring it up to around 130 ppm.

3. When I shock, my bromine levels do not go above 6-7. Do they need to go higher for the MPS shock to do it's job, or is this even a concern with bromine? (I can find ways to make it go higher...shocking less often so it reactivates more, using more bromine, adding bleach).

You did add sodium bromide to the spa on filling to create the bromide bank in the water, didn't you? IF not then you can't get the bromine level up very high from shocking with MPS and if you are shocking with chlorine you will have chlorine and not bromine until enough bromide has dissolved in the water from the (slow dissolving) bromine tablets. Since you are keeping your bromine levels so low I suspect that this can take a few months to happen since it takes about 6 weeks when bromine levels are maintained in the normal range! THIS is why we add sodium bromide to the water when we fill! If you have a proper bromide reserve in the water then adding chlorine will create bromine (The chlorine oxidizes the bromide into bromine and is reduced to chloide. MPS and ozone also oxidize the bromide into bromine. MPS is reduced to sulfate and ozone to oxygen.)

4. My bromine dips really low after using since I don't keep it very high to begin with. Is occasionally adding BLEACH really okay with bromine sanitizer? (I never have) It seems as tho a bromine reading wouldn't be accurate if it contains bleach (chlorine and bromine don't read the same on the scale). Also, the spa store told me that chlorine bleach would kill off the bromine.

If you are properly doing bromine by adding sodium bromide on filling then chlorine bleach is the oxidizer I prefer over MPS. The chlorine oxidizes the bromide into bromine sanitizer. FWIW, most bromine tabs contain both bromine and chlorine so the chlorine can oxidize the bromide in the water into bromine sanitizer. It is obvious that the spa store does not understand bromine chemistry! (Most people don't, even those in the industry that should, because it is not quite as simple as chlorine chemistry.)

5. Defoamer...good or bad? I had to start using it after my friends used the tub...laundry soap must have foamed it up bad. Now it's a bad cycle...EVERY time I enter the tub, i have to use defoamer...fixes it, but it's only worse the next time i get in. Shocking does NOT get rid of it...perhaps because I did NOT know to leave the cover open after shocking, or maybe because the bromine level isn't high enough when shocking?

If you maintain your water properly you should not need defoamer

Thanks again, and my appologies for such a long post!

This thread might help you properly run a bromine spa.

[ztbishop]

Thanks Waterbear! I did add sodium bromide when I filled the tub. Your post sheds a lot of light on the contrasting info I was told at the pool store. They were way off on how the chemicals react. One last question. When I get 4-5 people and turn on the turbo jets, I lose a lot of water over the sides...I've probably added 100 gallons back into the spa in the last month. Would it be a good idea to add a little sodium bromide? From what I'm gathering from your post, that wouldn't be necessary because the bromine tablets slowly replenish that chemical? Thanks again.

[waterbear]

Thanks Waterbear! I did add sodium bromide when I filled the tub. Your post sheds a lot of light on the contrasting info I was told at the pool store. They were way off on how the chemicals react. One last question. When I get 4-5 people and turn on the turbo jets, I lose a lot of water over the sides...I've probably added 100 gallons back into the spa in the last month. Would it be a good idea to add a little sodium bromide? From what I'm gathering from your post, that wouldn't be necessary because the bromine tablets slowly replenish that chemical? Thanks again.

If it's been a month or more enough bromine tablets should have dissolved to maintain the bromide bank in the water. If you are having problems maintaining the bromine level then you can add a bit more. If you have ozone then some of the bromide WILL be oxidized into non renewable bromate so adding a bit more sodium bromide can't hurt. However, I have not really ever found it necessary.

[ztbishop]

Just wanted to update here...

THANK YOU so much for the info. I have virtually illiminated all un-needed chemicals. I'm keeping the bromine ~4ppm, and the occasional shock (I now know to leave the cover open afterward). I've also found that swapping the filter every couple weeks stops my white foaming issues. When leaving the T.A. about 50-60, this allows my PH to remain 7.8 No more listening to the pool store telling me to keep the TA at 100! Rather than adding PH up / down every few days, it now requires a tablespoon maybe once a MONTH! I've also been able to stop adding the blue clarifier, the enzyme scum clarifiers, stain & scale, metal protector, and the floating scum collectors (they just deteriorated anyway). And aside of all the money I'm saving, the water stays MUCH CLEANER, and I have not had a scum ring ever since. I used to have one every few days when i took the pool store's advice.

Once again, THANK YOU!

Now, just to clear up a few last things...

I've been topping off with soft water. It doesn't seem to be causing any issues that I can see. However I'd forgotten your advice above to raise CH to >100 (it's probably around 60). I've heard low CH like mine can cause damage to the shell/plumming/etc because it wants to draw minerals. I've noticed a faded scratchy look above parts of the waterline, but I think this is from the previous owners. So I will raise CH to ~130 like you mention above, which leaves me with a question:

--Once I raise the CH, should I begin using stain and scale protection again?

My only other question:

--Is annual filter replacement the general rule?

I've swapped 2 filters since I started a year ago, but they have wide gaps in certain areas, just a bit worn looking, but clean. Doesn't surprise me after the chemical warfare I put them through in the beginning (and dishwasher cycles, no heat dry)

[waterbear]

The reason to keep the calcium above about 130 ppm in an acrylic shell is to help prevent foaming. Hard water is less likely to foam than soft water when there are some organics present. It is only plaster spas where higher calcium is needed to protect the finish and there is also some evidence that higher calcium levels tend to minimize staining and black spot in fiberglass shells.

For Acrylic shells it's a non issue, it's only to prevent foaming.

Stain and scale is really only needed when the CH is high, say above 400 ppm, or if you have metals in the water. Best way to prevent scale is to test your pH on a regular basis and never let it go above about 7.8

As far as carts, with proper care you should get about 3 year or so out of them. This means having 2 sets to rotate them and being able to soak one when you swap them. Hose the carts off with a short, brass, small bore, non adjustable garden hose nozzle (about $2-3), soak them for at least an hour to overnight in a solution of either TSP or automatic dishwasher detergent powder (1 cup to every 5 gallons of water). Mix enough in a container large enough to completely submerge the cart and then, after soaking hose it off again. It's really much easier than it sounds. You should never need to acid wash a cart (which shortens their life) or use a commercial filter cleaner (which are normally acid based) since your calcium hardness is low and your fill water is soft so scale deposits will not be an issue.

Hope this helps.