Green All Year

[bamamelena]

We've been working on this pool since Apr/May. We've had green before, we almost always have green once a year. This year, we didn't cover or keep up the chems, and we're obviously paying for that.

I've tried algaecide and drop out twice, wasting around $100 on all that. I've wasted almost a $70 bucket of shock. I've gone through PH, etc. NOTHING is holding. At one point, my PH was high, now it's low. That's the only thing that will even register on my test strips or at the pool store. I've had them test for phosphates, which we've had in the past, we don't have them now.

I'm at my wits end with this pool. We spent 2 weeks vacuuming out leaves, etc in the 90+ degree heat, only to have nothing change. My husband (and myself for that matter) is tired of throwing money at it, and won't anymore. We just cannot afford to.

I've had several people tell me all I needed to do was put the algaecide in, as instructed, then the drop out, as instructed. I've done that twice now. The pool store told me to double shock....I've done that.

What can I do, other than throwing more wasted money at this pit in my backyard?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give me.

[wsommariva]

Hang in there. There are a couple of people on this site very good at water chemistry. Wait for their replies. They need to know all your readings. CH, PH, tot alk, etc etc. Some of your readings may be off if one parameter is very high/low. Also if you use liquid reagents to test, check the expiration dates. Old reagents will give you bad readings.

[waterbear]

A few questiions

do you use chloirne pucks?

do you have a full set of test results? IF so post them, if not get them (and not done with strips, either yours or at the pool store. If your store tests with strips, even if they have an fancy strip reader then run and don't walk to a different one!)

I am going to make an educated guess that you use trichlor pucks for your main chlorine source and, as a result, your CYA (cyanuric acid, stabilizer) levels have gone through the roof. The pucks are a chemical made from CYA and chlorine and once the chlorine is used up the CYA stays behind. This form of chlorine is the only slow dissolving one that is used for pools, all others dissolve too fast for erosion feeders so there are no pucks without CYA. It's a catch-22.

CYA is necessary in an outdoor pool but too much 'inactivates' the chlorine so it cannot kill algae or disinfect.

Algaecides work for a while but once the levels get too high they stop.

The good news is that all you need to clear your pool is a GOOD test kit and a lot of bleach or liquid chlorine.

The bad news is if your CYA level is high the ONLY cure is to drain water and replace it. There is NO other way to lower CYA that works. You will also have to stop using the pucks and switch to an unstabilized chlorine source--bleach, liquid chlorine, or cal hypo. You will also have to stop using your feeder or floater and chlorinate daily. It's not really a lot of work and you will save a LOT of money!

AS a 'band-aid' approach you can run higher chlorine levels to compensate for the higher CYA levels (CYA combines with the chlorine to form chlorinated isocyanurates, sort of a chlorine reserve, so you need to keep adding chlorine until there is an excess of the 'active' chlorine, hypochlorous acid)

Also, the ONLY think you need to kill algae is chlorine and the ONLY thing you need to clear the dead algae from the pool is your filter and a bit of patience and perisistance.

It does NOT need to be a money pit!

Finally, the BEST investment you can make in having a clear, clean, safe, and sanitized pool is a GOOD test kit. For completeness and ease of use I would suggest a Taylor K-2006 (NOT the K-2005) and start testing your own water weekly. This way you will know WHAT the pool needs, WHEN to put it in, and HOW much to put in! Also, instead of paying pool store prices you can use laundry bleach as your chlorine source (it's the same as liquid chlorine), baking soda to raise total alkalinity if and when needed (This is all the sodium hydrogen carbonate or sodium bicarbonate the pool store sells you is), washing soda as a pH and TA increaser (This is what alkalinity up is) but borax is a better choice when you need to raise pH without affecting TA. Pool stores sell borax (or a mix of borax and boric acid) as an algaestat and water enhancer under different brand names like Supreme, Endure, and Optimizer.

Please post a set of test results and we can take it from there.

[bamamelena]

A few questiions

do you use chloirne pucks?

do you have a full set of test results? IF so post them, if not get them (and not done with strips, either yours or at the pool store. If your store tests with strips, even if they have an fancy strip reader then run and don't walk to a different one!)

Please post a set of test results and we can take it from there.

Thanks for the info Waterbear. I do not use the pucks, if you're talking about the tabs?? I've used them once this year. I use granulated chlorine. I will get a set of test results and post them but I'm beginning to think that you're right about possibly draining it.

[waterbear]

Thanks for the info Waterbear. I do not use the pucks, if you're talking about the tabs?? I've used them once this year. I use granulated chlorine. I will get a set of test results and post them but I'm beginning to think that you're right about possibly draining it.

Is the granualted chlorine dichlor or cal hypo? Dichlor will raise CYA faster than trichlor tabs will.

If you are using cal hypo is there any CYA in the water at all? No CYA will cause a fast chlorine loss from sunlight and a green pool.

This is a much better scenerio since you will NOT have to drain to get this under control.

You do need some test results and a good test kit either way. Don't depend on the pool store.

[mn pool and spa]

Shocking is going to be the solution SHOCK SHOCK SHOCK i would probally throw like 16 gallons or more you need to get the chlorine levels up and maintain them if you double shock and it doesnt kill all the ickys they will grow right back waisting all the money you just spent on chemis you need to realy stay on it

[waterbear]

Shocking is going to be the solution SHOCK SHOCK SHOCK i would probally throw like 16 gallons or more you need to get the chlorine levels up and maintain them

How can you say to add 15 gallons or more of chlorine without knowing the volume of the pool or whether it is a liner pool or not?! The OP never stated and has not posted any test results. This is very irresponsible information to post!

[bamamelena]

My pool is a liner pool, about 14,000 gallons.

I have some test results from the last time I had it tested. I'll post these for now, and then get more Tuesday or Wednesday.

FC-.02

TC-.02

PH-8.05

CYA-2

ALK-175

CAL-90

[waterbear]

My pool is a liner pool, about 14,000 gallons.

I have some test results from the last time I had it tested. I'll post these for now, and then get more Tuesday or Wednesday.

FC-.02

TC-.02

PH-8.05

CYA-2

ALK-175

CAL-90

assuming that you did not add any chems after the last test I can see why your pool is green. There is not enough CYA to keep the sun from burning off the chlorine and, if the pool had higher CYA levels when it was closed, you probably have an ammonia problem which increases the chlorine demand. Since you have a liner pool you just can't "nuke" it with chlorine like the poster above suggested but you do need to get the chlorine to shock level and keep it there by adding chlorine several times a day. you will also need your own test kit since it will not be practical to have your water tested several times a day at the pool store.

The ONLY water parameters to worry about now are the chlorine and CYA. Nothing else matters until you clear the pool, even the high pH which will work to your benefit in killing the algae (and before anyone starts parroting that chlorine works better at lower pH I am aware of that but the higher pH will promote the formation of monochloramine!)

[quantumchromodynamics]

I would like to reiterate the importance of accurate, complete and current chemistry readings. How old are these readings?

I recommend that you have the cyanuric acid retested, as 2 is not a number that I would consider reliable. The test is not that precise or accurate.

At this point, you need to shock to at least 10 ppm FC and keep it there until the water is clear.

What color is the water now?

What is the clarity? How deep can you see?

What type of filter do you have?

[bamamelena]

These readings are about 3wks old, the only thing I have added is algacide and drop-out, and chlorine which isn't reading on my test strips. I will get my water tested again.

The water is greenish/black, I cannot see anything in the pool at all. As for the type of filter, I'm unsure on that. I have a Hayward pump, if that helps. Thanks again to all of you for your help!!

[quantumchromodynamics]

The first thing you should do is add one quart of 31.45 % muriatic acid. After 1 hour, add 3 gallons of regular, unscented 6.00 % bleach.

You should maintain a pH of between 7.2 and 7.8. You should maintain a free chlorine level between 10 ppm and 15 ppm until the water is clear. Use bleach. The key is consistency. Test several times a day and maintain the chlorine and pH in the ranges indicated. If you allow the chlorine to drop below 10 ppm, you will lose all of the progress you have made.

You should bypass the filter by putting the multiport on "Recirculate" until the water turns white. Then switch back to filter. Allow the pump to run 24/7.

Note: Dichlor could be a better choice than bleach if your cyanuric acid is low. Every pound will raise your FC by about 5 ppm and your cyanuric acid level by about 4 ppm.

Start with 3 pounds of dichlor. Do not use acid first if you are going to use dichlor, as it will lower the pH. Mix the dichlor in water before adding it to the pool. Mix a maximum of 1 pound of dichlor to 4 gallons of water. Do not allow any granules to go into the water.

After using a total of 5 pounds of dichlor, switch over to bleach.

[quantumchromodynamics]

(and before anyone starts parroting that chlorine works better at lower pH I am aware of that but the higher pH will promote the formation of monochloramine!)

This is primarily only relevant when one is using ammonia products such as Yellow-Rid to form chloramines to try to get around a high cyanuric acid level. The poster is indicating a low cyanuric acid level and I am not anticipating that there will be much ammonia unless the cyanuric acid has been converted.

The poster could get an ammonia test kit to test for ammonia. However, if the cyanuric acid is low, then a lower pH should be a better choice whether there is ammonia or not.

The poster should also monitor their CC levels to get a better idea of what is happening with their chemistry.

[waterbear]

(and before anyone starts parroting that chlorine works better at lower pH I am aware of that but the higher pH will promote the formation of monochloramine!)

This is primarily only relevant when one is using ammonia products such as Yellow-Rid to form chloramines to try to get around a high cyanuric acid level.

HMMM, who was the first one on these forums to explain how using ammonia or sodium bromide took CYA out of the equation? You might want to do a bit of checking on this at the major forums like TFP, PF, and Poolcenter. I think the answer will surprise you.

The poster is indicating a low cyanuric acid level and I am not anticipating that there will be much ammonia unless the cyanuric acid has been converted.

AND we do not know this from the info the OP has posted.

The poster could get an ammonia test kit to test for ammonia. However, if the cyanuric acid is low, then a lower pH should be a better choice whether there is ammonia or not.

The poster should also monitor their CC levels to get a better idea of what is happening with their chemistry.

In an ideal world, yes but the OP is using pool store testing (and not that often, it seems) and does not seem to have a decent test kit (which they really do need). However, there is no reason they cannot start to clear their pool armed with nothing more than an inexpensive 2 way OTO/pH tester! KISS! If I have learned nothing else in dealing with pool owners and pool maintenance in the retail side of the industry is that turning their pool maintenance into a chemistry experiment is the fastest way to lose them! Baby steps, baby steps!

NOT totally true, the higher pH also helps slow the formation off some of the nastier (and smellier) disinfection byproducts that are much harder to get rid of in the long run. Higher pH will favor the formation of monochloramine, which is much easier to oxidize.

We do not know if there is an ammonia problem because the OP did not state whether the pool had CYA when it was closed so you are making assumptions.

The main problem here is a green pool. The only thing the OP needs to concentrate on at the moment is getting enough chlorine in there and keeping it in there until the pool clears. This can be done with nothing more than an OTO test kit, FWIW. I do agree with your suggestion on using dichlor to raise the CYA quickly. In fact, I made a very similar suggestion over at PF about a week or two ago to someone setting up an Intex pool.

The OP just wants to clear their pool, not start a chemistry science experiment!

KISS!

As far as it goes, I am the one of the first on any of the forums to indicate that ammonia might be a problem in pools that closed with CYA and opened with little or none and to use an aquarium ammonia test kit, if not the first. Chem Geek can verify this if you care to ask him. Ben Powell at Pool Forum is actually the first that talked about CYA 'disappearing' AFAIK and I did discuss with him some of the published papers on degradation of CYA by anaerobic bacteria, as part of the process of the degradation of atrazine.

[chem geek]

As far as it goes, I am the one of the first on any of the forums to indicate that ammonia might be a problem in pools that closed with CYA and opened with little or none and to use an aquarium ammonia test kit, if not the first. Chem Geek can verify this if you care to ask him. Ben Powell at Pool Forum is actually the first that talked about CYA 'disappearing' AFAIK and I did discuss with him some of the published papers on degradation of CYA by anaerobic bacteria, as part of the process of the degradation of atrazine.

Ben was the first to talk about CYA disappearing and then reference how it could get converted to ammonia. Ben wrote a post about this here on 3/29/2006 though he may have written about it earlier (the forum had crashed and lost some earlier posts at some point). Ben linked to some of the chemical pathways in this post.

[waterbear]

As far as it goes, I am the one of the first on any of the forums to indicate that ammonia might be a problem in pools that closed with CYA and opened with little or none and to use an aquarium ammonia test kit, if not the first. Chem Geek can verify this if you care to ask him. Ben Powell at Pool Forum is actually the first that talked about CYA 'disappearing' AFAIK and I did discuss with him some of the published papers on degradation of CYA by anaerobic bacteria, as part of the process of the degradation of atrazine.

Ben was the first to talk about CYA disappearing and then reference how it could get converted to ammonia. Ben wrote a post about this here on 3/29/2006 though he may have written about it earlier (the forum had crashed and lost some earlier posts at some point). Ben linked to some of the chemical pathways in this post.

Totally true but I was the first to suggest testing for ammonia with an aquarium test kit AFAIK as evidenced by the second link you posted.

The second link also backs up what I said about pH.

[quantumchromodynamics]

HMMM, who was the first one on these forums to explain how using ammonia or sodium bromide took CYA out of the equation? You might want to do a bit of checking on this at the major forums like TFP, PF, and Poolcenter. I think the answer will surprise you.

No surprise at all. I am well aware of your extensive contributions to everyone's pool chemistry knowledge. Many others and I are very grateful for all that you have done to help so many people.

My primary concern regarding the pH was that the high TA would push it even higher. If the TA were lower, then I wouldn't have been as concerned.

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. Use a total of 5 pounds of dichlor and then switch over to bleach. Keep the chlorine between 10 and 15 ppm. Have everything retested and report back.

[waterbear]

HMMM, who was the first one on these forums to explain how using ammonia or sodium bromide took CYA out of the equation? You might want to do a bit of checking on this at the major forums like TFP, PF, and Poolcenter. I think the answer will surprise you.

No surprise at all. I am well aware of your extensive contributions to everyone's pool chemistry knowledge. Many others and I are very grateful for all that you have done to help so many people.

My primary concern regarding the pH was that the high TA would push it even higher. If the TA were lower, then I wouldn't have been as concerned.

That is not the most important issue right now and will really have minimal impact on clearing the pool. It does not even need to be brought up, considering that the OP does not even have a test kit. The high TA will not drive the pH above about 8.2-8.3 at any rate, as I assume you know from some of the chemistry you have posted in this forum.

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. Use a total of 5 pounds of dichlor and then switch over to bleach. Keep the chlorine between 10 and 15 ppm. Have everything retested and report back.

In a 14k pool 5 lbs of dichlor will only raise the CYA about 20 ppm AND since the only test results we have are 3 weeks old and at that time the CYA was nonexistant AND since we really don't know what has been put in the pool we really need to wait on more recent test results. Also, wiithout a test kit how is the OP going to keep the FC between 10-15 ppm? To refresh your memory,with comments added:

The first thing you should do is add one quart of 31.45 % muriatic acid.

I have already discussed why this is unnecessary

After 1 hour, add 3 gallons of regular, unscented 6.00 % bleach.

I would have had him add this initially, preferably at night and 2 gallons more 3 times a day during the next day since he does not have a way to test FC and then report back.

You should maintain a pH of between 7.2 and 7.8. You should maintain a free chlorine level between 10 ppm and 15 ppm until the water is clear. Use bleach. The key is consistency. Test several times a day and maintain the chlorine and pH in the ranges indicated. If you allow the chlorine to drop below 10 ppm, you will lose all of the progress you have made.

Too much info for a newbie who is going to the pool store for water testing every month. You just lost him! I can see his eyes glazing over from here!

You should bypass the filter by putting the multiport on "Recirculate" until the water turns white. Then switch back to filter. Allow the pump to run 24/7.

You assume the OP has a sand filter with a multiport valve, we don't know this.

Note: Dichlor could be a better choice than bleach if your cyanuric acid is low. Every pound will raise your FC by about 5 ppm and your cyanuric acid level by about 4 ppm.

TMI, he just want to clear his pool, not get a chemistry lesson!

Start with 3 pounds of dichlor. Do not use acid first if you are going to use dichlor, as it will lower the pH. Mix the dichlor in water before adding it to the pool. Mix a maximum of 1 pound of dichlor to 4 gallons of water. Do not allow any granules to go into the water.

Again, TMI. Also, dichlor is so fast dissolving that if it were just broadcast on the water (the usual application method for dichlor) it would all be dissolved before it hit the bottom of the pool. Perhaps you are confusing dichlor with cal hypo here? Cal hypo does need to be predissolved, particularly with a liner pool. I suspect you have never actually used dichlor or you would not have posted this.

After using a total of 5 pounds of dichlor, switch over to bleach.

Bottom line is this...

When you have a green pool the ONLY things of any concern are chlorine and CYA. Unless the pH is dangerously low don't worry about it. High pH is much less of a problem and in many instances can be a benefit. (As a side note, United Chemical pushes the Hamilton Index for running high pH pools...I won't go into my own feelings on this now but high pH pools are not new and many people have run hem successfully, including professional pool maintenance companies that REALLY understand the chemistry involved). They do exist!.

IF the CYA is too high then dilute first then work on the chlorine. It's much easier.

IF the CYA is low get some dichlor in their first then switch to bleach is the easiest way.

If the CYA is ok start hammering away with bleach.

IF you don't know the CYA (this is our case here) start hammering away with bleach several times a day. If there is no way to test chlorine levels then just do a "guesstimate" of how much you need to raise the FC the desired amount and assume you will lose about 2/3 of that between bleach applications. This is the safest way int this case.

simple, no?

Once the pool clears you can worry about the other stuff.

KISS

To the original poster, bamamelena, if you are still with us we really can help you get rid of the green and save a lot of money. If you could get us some test results and, in the meantime try this:

add 3 gallons of regular, unscented 6.00 % bleach at night.

add 2 gallons more the next day in the moining, noon time and in the evening

Run your pump 24/7 and clean your filter as needed.

Report back once you have done this for a day and confinue the 2 gal 3 times a day until the pool clears.

Shouldn't take very long at all!

Get a water test ASAP!!!! (But don't do anything the pool store recommends at this point!)

[quantumchromodynamics]

Perhaps you are confusing dichlor with cal hypo here? Cal hypo does need to be predissolved, particularly with a liner pool. I suspect you have never actually used dichlor or you would not have posted this.

I have used dichlor many times. I don't broadcast anything. I dissolve everything first. Broadcasting dichlor can leave some granules on the bottom. Why even risk it?

The only thing I will add without dissolving it first is large amounts of salt as that is low risk, especially for vinyl or fiberglass. I don't particularly like to dump salt in a plaster pool. However, good brushing will mitigate any risk. If the amount is not too much, I will dissolve it before adding it to the water.

[bamamelena]

To the original poster, bamamelena, if you are still with us we really can help you get rid of the green and save a lot of money. If you could get us some test results and, in the meantime try this:

add 3 gallons of regular, unscented 6.00 % bleach at night.

add 2 gallons more the next day in the moining, noon time and in the evening

Run your pump 24/7 and clean your filter as needed.

Report back once you have done this for a day and confinue the 2 gal 3 times a day until the pool clears.

Shouldn't take very long at all!

Get a water test ASAP!!!! (But don't do anything the pool store recommends at this point!)

I don't know what dichlor is I was just sitting here thinking about going to the Dollar Store and getting gallons of bleach. The only thing that makes me hesitant is the one time I did that, we ended up with phosphates for some reason, but I guess that's better than green

[bamamelena]

Here's another thing....we've been here since 07, and we've never changed the sand in the pump. Does that have anythiing to do with this?

[waterbear]

To the original poster, bamamelena, if you are still with us we really can help you get rid of the green and save a lot of money. If you could get us some test results and, in the meantime try this:

add 3 gallons of regular, unscented 6.00 % bleach at night.

add 2 gallons more the next day in the moining, noon time and in the evening

Run your pump 24/7 and clean your filter as needed.

Report back once you have done this for a day and confinue the 2 gal 3 times a day until the pool clears.

Shouldn't take very long at all!

Get a water test ASAP!!!! (But don't do anything the pool store recommends at this point!)

I don't know what dichlor is I was just sitting here thinking about going to the Dollar Store and getting gallons of bleach. The only thing that makes me hesitant is the one time I did that, we ended up with phosphates for some reason, but I guess that's better than green

PHosphates are a cash cow for pool stores, They can test for it and sell you something to remove it. However phosphates really do not cause problems 99% of the time (and nitrates are just as big a problem and tend to go hand in hand with phosphates. However, there is no way to remove nitrates so they are not tested for. Pool stores can't make money off of nitrates being high.)

Ignore phosphates!

Using bleach had NOTHING to do with phosphates in the water but if you used a metal sequestrant that is probably where the phosphates came from.

IF you are using just bleach you need to find out your Stabilizer(CYA) level. It is very important! Dichlor is a form of stabilized chlorine that adds CYA. The other stabilizec c hlorine is trichlor, used in feeders and floaters. Once the stabilizer reaches a certain level you need ot stop using them. Your water had no CYA in it on the test results ypu published and you need 30-50 ppm to keep the chlorine from burning off in the sun. Get you water tested and report back please.

Be careful of dollar store bleach. It is often old and weak or is only 3%. You want 6% ultra bleach , unscented. Walmart is probably your best bet.

[waterbear]

Here's another thing....we've been here since 07, and we've never changed the sand in the pump. Does that have anythiing to do with this?

Filter sand is generally good for 10 years and I know of people that have had the same sand for 20! It does lose a bit of filtering ability as it gets "polished" by the water flowing over it all the time but it still works. Changing the sand every year is just another way for the pool stores to make money!

[bamamelena]

Here's another thing....we've been here since 07, and we've never changed the sand in the pump. Does that have anythiing to do with this?

Filter sand is generally good for 10 years and I know of people that have had the same sand for 20! It does lose a bit of filtering ability as it gets "polished" by the water flowing over it all the time but it still works. Changing the sand every year is just another way for the pool stores to make money!

Thanks SG!! I just added 3 Gallons of 6% (I got it at DG, before I saw your post, but I made sure it was 6%) so we'll see. I've only had phosphates that one time, the time that I used the bleach, so it's just strange to me.

Thanks for telling me what CYA is in your above post, I wasn't sure. I'm not using a floater right now, I took that out. I have tons of the 3" tabs, but I'm not using them right now either. Do I need to drop it in with some tabs?

I'm going to get the water tested tomorrow, and no I won't buy anything from them. Oh, and the phosphate remover?? it's $26!

So, after adding this bleach, and adding more tomorrow, and getting my water tested, is there anything else I need to be doing? I thought about putting my Polaris in to stir the bleach up, etc, but wondered if that would just make the water worse at this point.

Thank you again for your help!!

[bamamelena]

Oh, and as for the ammonia? I'm not sure, but it's a STRONG possibility. We had about 100 frogs in our pool for about 3wks (Not exaggerating) At one point, when I put some shock in during that time, my whole pool ''fizzed'' up as I put it in. It did NOT do that the last time I used shock, over the weekend, though.

The only thing my DH and I could figure was it was reacting with the ammonia from the frogs.