Newbie Here And To Pools

[tgianco]

Hello,

My family is getting down to the wire on deciding between three companies to build our in-ground pool in the Sacramento, CA area. Since this will be my first pool, we (my wife and I) are learning on the run. Besides the pool, we're doing our whole backyard as one giant project.

The pool itself will be on the smaller end, 315-325 sq ft. We know we want salt water, solar power (we're southwest facing, so we're golden), a big cabo ledge (for all the kids) and a waterfall. We also don't want to skimp on equipment, so we're trying to decide between the Jandy ePump (with corresponding equipment) and the Pentair 4x160 variable speed pump w/ Intelliflo, etc. Any thoughts on the differences when it comes to performance and utility costs?

We'll be doing a lot of stamped concrete as well with a built-in gas firepit (gas run of about 80 feet with another stub for a future outdoor kitchen) and a bocce ball court (32x8... I know, not near regulation but enough to have some drinks and some fun) with some basic landscaping (no sod... I am one LOW-maintenance dude). When I look down the line items, it's funny how certain items are different.

A couple of other questions:

1. would you expect the smaller, local company to be lower cost or more expensive than the big, mass producer?

2. what other considerations should we be looking at that a new pool buyer should ask but might usually miss?

[BandOnTheRun]

Hello,

My family is getting down to the wire on deciding between three companies to build our in-ground pool in the Sacramento, CA area. Since this will be my first pool, we (my wife and I) are learning on the run. Besides the pool, we're doing our whole backyard as one giant project.

The pool itself will be on the smaller end, 315-325 sq ft. We know we want salt water, solar power (we're southwest facing, so we're golden), a big cabo ledge (for all the kids) and a waterfall. We also don't want to skimp on equipment, so we're trying to decide between the Jandy ePump (with corresponding equipment) and the Pentair 4x160 variable speed pump w/ Intelliflo, etc. Any thoughts on the differences when it comes to performance and utility costs?

We'll be doing a lot of stamped concrete as well with a built-in gas firepit (gas run of about 80 feet with another stub for a future outdoor kitchen) and a bocce ball court (32x8... I know, not near regulation but enough to have some drinks and some fun) with some basic landscaping (no sod... I am one LOW-maintenance dude). When I look down the line items, it's funny how certain items are different.

A couple of other questions:

1. would you expect the smaller, local company to be lower cost or more expensive than the big, mass producer?

2. what other considerations should we be looking at that a new pool buyer should ask but might usually miss?

To begin with congratulations on your pool purchasing decision. That's fantastic. It sounds like the project will be one that when finished will bring years of enjoyment. I would have to tell you we are fiberglass experts and if you are looking for a low maintenance, lower long term yearly operating costs, select a fiberglass pool. They have chemically inert finishes that are non-porous. As far as the equipment is concerned, I have used Pentair on projects with great success - not much experience with Jandy. I can put you in touch with an authorized Barrier Reef Pools dealer in your area if you so choose. Fiberglass work especially great in this application.

[Problem Solver]

Good Morning,

The back yard retreat sounds wonderful! I question your use of a salt chlorine generator! Bad news on these, as you will still soaking your family in chlorine! Only in its acid form! Look into this before deciding. There is a much better, much safer, and much less expensive option. Copper Silver mineral ionization. Check it out, and dont expect your local pool store to endorse this. They want your business, and money year after year! Chlorine and Salt/Chlorine generators are coming under a lot of fire over here on the East coast. Good luck!

Hello,

My family is getting down to the wire on deciding between three companies to build our in-ground pool in the Sacramento, CA area. Since this will be my first pool, we (my wife and I) are learning on the run. Besides the pool, we're doing our whole backyard as one giant project.

The pool itself will be on the smaller end, 315-325 sq ft. We know we want salt water, solar power (we're southwest facing, so we're golden), a big cabo ledge (for all the kids) and a waterfall. We also don't want to skimp on equipment, so we're trying to decide between the Jandy ePump (with corresponding equipment) and the Pentair 4x160 variable speed pump w/ Intelliflo, etc. Any thoughts on the differences when it comes to performance and utility costs?

We'll be doing a lot of stamped concrete as well with a built-in gas firepit (gas run of about 80 feet with another stub for a future outdoor kitchen) and a bocce ball court (32x8... I know, not near regulation but enough to have some drinks and some fun) with some basic landscaping (no sod... I am one LOW-maintenance dude). When I look down the line items, it's funny how certain items are different.

A couple of other questions:

1. would you expect the smaller, local company to be lower cost or more expensive than the big, mass producer?

2. what other considerations should we be looking at that a new pool buyer should ask but might usually miss?

[chem geek]

Good Morning,

The back yard retreat sounds wonderful! I question your use of a salt chlorine generator! Bad news on these, as you will still soaking your family in chlorine! Only in its acid form! Look into this before deciding. There is a much better, much safer, and much less expensive option. Copper Silver mineral ionization. Check it out, and dont expect your local pool store to endorse this. They want your business, and money year after year! Chlorine and Salt/Chlorine generators are coming under a lot of fire over here on the East coast. Good luck!

What do you mean "soaking your family in chlorine...only in its acid form"? The chlorine produced by a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) is chlorine gas that gets dissolved into the water, but the net result of that plus the hydrogen gas generation at the other plate is IDENTICAL chlorine to that added from bleach or chlorinating liquid (except that the salt level doesn't increase) -- technical details about this are in this post. The "acid form" you are probably referring to is hypochlorous acid, but at pool water near a pH of 7.5, hypochlorous acid is present independent of the source of the chlorine. Any hypochlorite source (such as bleach or chlorinating liquid or Cal-Hypo or lithium hypochlorite) that is added gets partially converted to hypochlorous acid at pool pH. Also, it is this "acid form" of chlorine that is the primary disinfectant as it is a neutral molecule that looks somewhat like water so enters into cells fairly easily. So there is no difference in the chlorine resulting from an SWG compared to manual dosing.

Mineral ionization is not safer with respect to killing pathogens quickly. At a typical Free Chlorine (FC) level that is around 10% of the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level, most bacteria get killed by chlorine in under one minute (for a 99% kill) and this has the same hypochlorous acid concentration as around 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA so is very low in active chlorine concentration yet enough to kill pathogens quickly. It takes silver ion about 10 minutes and copper ion about 20 minutes for the same kill rate. Though this may be fast enough to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth, it is probably not fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission which is why such metal ion systems are not allowed (by themselves without chlorine) in a commercial/public pool. Also, viruses are not killed very quickly by metal ions. For example, this paper shows that copper ions do a 90% inactivation of Herpes Simplex Virus in 30 minutes at 100-200 ppm, but that is far, far higher in concentration than found in pools (copper is usually < 0.3 ppm in pools). This paper shows that silver ions have virtually no effect on vacciniavirus, adenovirus, VSV, poliovirus, HVJ, but that with herpes simplex virus there is a 5-log kill in 60 minutes (roughly a 90% kill in about 5 minutes), but at over 3200 ppb compared to the usual limit of 20 ppb to prevent silver staining.

Metal ions can cause staining if their concentration gets too high or the pH (or TA or CYA) get too high. Copper is a very effective algaecide, but using metal ions in a plaster pool is asking for trouble unless you carefully monitor concentration of the metal ions and keep the pH low.

There are only three EPA-approved sanitizers for pools, those that pass EPA DIS/TSS-12: chlorine, bromine, Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. For hot water spas, there is also Nature2 (silver plus zinc ions) with non-chlorine shock (MPS) that has been approved, but this is only for hot water. The EPA registration for copper is as an algaecide, NOT as a disinfectant/sanitizer.

As for costs, metal ions do not oxidize bather waste so you'd have to use non-chlorine shock (MPS) for that and this is MUCH more expensive than using chlorine for the same purpose. In my own 16,000 gallon pool shown here and here, my chlorine usage is just under 1 ppm FC per day (I have a mostly opaque automatic safety cover and the pool is used 1-2 hours every weekday and longer on weekends). I use 12.5% chlorinating liquid added twice a week plus a very small amount of acid every month or two. This costs me around $17 per month in chemical costs.

A saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) has a larger up-front cost and the cost to replace the cell every few years, but the operating cost is minimal. There are issues with the saltwater having increased corrosion rates and one should not use soft stones (e.g. soft limestone) as the splash-out can crack/split soft stones (and metal diving board mounts or metal in furniture can rust faster). These things can be mitigated through use of harder stone and/or sealing the stone and using high quality stainless steel. Most people are very happy with their SWG pools.