Need Asap What Is The Best Ph Neutral Non Stabilized Chlorine

[kbaumann]

Why I ask.... Because I will be giving this product to customers to use after

a soak instead of MPS... I dont want them to deal with liquid products... I need

all of your inputs on sources that are of best value...

This product PRODUCT is about a 12ph, and is dry chlorinating granules for swimming pools. 73% Calcium Hypochlorite. Can be used as a shock or for regular chlorination.

http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Poo...:100010/I/14181

This product PRODUCT is about 12ph, and is calcium hypochlorite shock. Safe to broadcast over all pool types. Highly effective in killing both algae and bacteria.

http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Poo...:100010/I/14183

Which would you use and why?

~ Karl

[chem geek]

Neither because calcium hypochlorite will increase Calcium Hardness (CH) which will eventually lead to scaling. I repeat what I wrote before about the side effects of different chemicals:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.

For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.

For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

If you want to add a chlorine product that is not a liquid (i.e. not bleach or chlorinating liquid) that will net out to be pH neutral when accounting for chlorine usage/consumption, then use lithium hypochlorite which is a powder. It is 5-6 times as expensive as bleach and over 3 times as expensive as Dichlor (when accounting for pH or TA adjustment), but it is the ONLY non-liquid chlorine product you can use that will not increase either CYA nor CH (well, there's chlorine gas, but we won't go there ). You can find it here from FMC, here from OMNI, here as Guardex, or as a variety of pool shocks as shown here, or as BioGuard Burn Out 35.

HOWEVER, you need to use Dichlor initially or use Instant Pool Water Conditioner to get the CYA up to around 30 ppm first before you switch to using lithium hypochlorite. Otherwise, the active chlorine level will be too strong and you will wear out the hot tub cover and possibly other components too quickly and the chlorine will outgas too quickly and be too strong in oxidizing swimsuits, skin and hair and produce too much nitrogen trichloride.

[kbaumann]

Richard,

If lithium is 3 times the cost as Dichlor, are you giving a per pound cost comparison? Why I ask is what if it takes half the amount of lithium as what it would Dichlor to shock a spa to 14ppm... See where I am going with that? Also, what if I gave the lithium to the customers to use before and after the soak and then when I was going to shock the spa I use bleach... Will that work? How much lithium per soak hour would you recommend being put in after a soak… and would you recommend any being put in before the soak began? It seems that lithium and bleach are favored the same but cost sways the choice?

What takes place when MPS is used with Lithium at the very same time. Will that help use less lithium because the MPS will do more oxidising and let the lithium do the sanitizing? Can the chemicals be mixed together in the same container? Please know that the questions I ask may be out there, but I learned long ago to throw out questions and see if people look at each other and say, "That is the way we always done it... I dont know?" or "Get life insurance for the kids first." What this would give me is a less expensive way to chlorinate the water before and after soaks with a product that has neither CYA or calcium, yet being still a powder.

Also, how fast would those other products I gave to you above lead to scaling? Just wondering... Why? Because I know some people in the business of taking care of spas that use those products, the powder pro, as their only sourse to chlorine because of price... They also do not use CYA at all because they fear the chemical because other states have banded it... hmmmmm I know what you may be thinking... But I would like to know how fast that product will start scaling?

Karl

[chem geek]

Karl,

I'm giving you a per FC comparison, not per pound. So it's a realistic comparison and the details are in this post. You can mix the different chlorine sources, such as lithium and bleach, any way you like (I don't mean mixing them together -- I mean adding them separately to the water). The person-hour amount for lithium hypochlorite is around 5-1/2 to 6 teaspoons.

Remember that most people don't like soaking with a lot of chlorine so generally you would add it after the soak in sufficient quantity that there is some measurable residual (1-2 ppm FC) before the next soak.

Let's say that the daily chlorine usage rate for a spa is 4 ppm FC. Then using Cal-Hypo as the only source of chlorine would increase Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 85 ppm per month. So if you start out with soft water (say 50 ppm CH) then you might go 2 months or maybe 3 before you might see scaling problems. On the other hand, if your initial fill water was well water with higher CH to start with, you could scale within the first month. Also remember that to avoid foaming, you usually raise the CH to around 120 ppm, but then you've got less room to get to higher CH when scaling can occur. I suspect that these people you are talking about probably have the spa water replaced every 3 months or even sooner. You certainly couldn't go 6 months using Cal-Hypo the way you can go with Dichlor-then-bleach (or lithium hypochlorite).

Richard

[kbaumann]

I just added this: What takes place when MPS is used with Lithium at the very same time. Will that help use less lithium because the MPS will do more oxidising and let the lithium do the sanitizing? Can the chemicals be mixed together in the same container? Please know that the questions I ask may be out there, but I learned long ago to throw out questions and see if people look at each other and say, "That is the way we always done it... I dont know?" or "Get life insurance for the kids first." What this would give me is a less expensive way to chlorinate the water before and after soaks with a product that has neither CYA or calcium, yet being still a powder.

[kbaumann]

Notice how much less expensive per pound the chlorinating liquid is. It had better be because most of it is water, so what we really need to see is the cost per available chlorine and that is as follows:

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks ......... $2.20 / 0.915 = $2.40 but $3.83 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH

Dichlor .......................... $2.60 / 0.554 = $4.70 but $5.73 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH

73% Cal-Hypo ................ $2.40 / 0.724 = $3.31

Lithium Hypochlorite ....... $6.00 / 0.352 = $17.05

12.5% Chlorinating Liquid . $0.336 / 0.108 = $3.11

6% Bleach ..................... $0.15 / 0.057 = $2.63

WOW... Lithium is expensive. OK now I am looking at the 12.5% Clorinating Liquid... Tell me, do you know of a dispenser that I could buy... a bottle with like a pump on it... that would make it so I could just say put two pumps in after each man hour of soak... Something like that... I would like something simple for the customer to use a liquid... Opening a bottle and pouring it out to measure makes me fearful...

I need to read more on what effect it has on TA and PH....

[chem geek]

I just added this: What takes place when MPS is used with Lithium at the very same time. Will that help use less lithium because the MPS will do more oxidising and let the lithium do the sanitizing? Can the chemicals be mixed together in the same container? Please know that the questions I ask may be out there, but I learned long ago to throw out questions and see if people look at each other and say, "That is the way we always done it... I dont know?" or "Get life insurance for the kids first." What this would give me is a less expensive way to chlorinate the water before and after soaks with a product that has neither CYA or calcium, yet being still a powder.

When both MPS and chlorine (from any source) are present in the water at the same time, then both compete to oxidize compounds where some are oxidized more readily by MPS and others by chlorine. Presumably, ammonia and urea are oxidized more by MPS first, but I can't swear that's true -- I seem to recall that from a conversation with someone from Dupont since that's how non-chlorine shock is generally used in pools as a preventative of chloramine formation.

You should NOT mix the two together, at least not without contacting Dupont first. Though they are both oxidizers, they are different oxidizers and the stronger of the two might react with the weaker. I'd recommend against any mix except by separately adding them to the water.

If your thought was to cut down the amount of chlorine needed, you could instead have Nature2 and use MPS most of the time and then only use lithium hypochlorite as a weekly shock. Though you normally don't need to shock when using chlorine alone, most people find that when using MPS it helps to shock with chlorine in order to keep the water clear. Remember that the MPS should only be used alone if you are also using Nature2 (for the silver ions). However, as shown below, this isn't very much less expensive than using lithium hypochlorite alone.

As for expense, 30 person-hours of soaking (so two people 30 minutes every day for a month which is roughly 7 ppm FC per day in 350 gallons) would need around 150 fluid ounces of 6% bleach at around $1.95 (assuming $1.25 for a 96-ounce or 3/4 gallon jug) or 17-1/2 ounces weight of Dichlor for around $2.84 (assuming $2.60 per pound) though that increases CYA by 191 ppm in 350 gallons or 35 ounces weight of 43% MPS for around $10.94 (assuming $5 per pound) or 30 ounces weight of Lithium hypochlorite for around $11.25 (assuming $6 per pound). So you don't really save much by using MPS vs. Lithium hypochlorite.

The table you copied in your post before this one is from my post (you should generally quote or cite things you copy). Why are you looking at 12.5% chlorinating liquid instead of 6% Clorox Regular bleach? The chlorinating liquid will not last as long -- it breaks down around 4 times faster than the bleach when in concentrated form. Also the bleach has the least amount of excess lye in it which means it will have the lowest rate of pH rise (accounting for chlorine consumption/usage). As for ways of automating the delivery, there was another thread on this forum talking about various pump alternatives that were less expensive than peristaltic pumps -- I think they were IV pumps used for drug delivery -- I found the thread which is here.

[kbaumann]

Richard ~ I was looking to the 12.5% chlorinating liquid because I thought it was the same as the 6% Clorox Regular bleach, only more concentrated. The reason for looking at that product is simplely I feel asking the customers to use the 12.5% chlorinating product will be accepted long before the Clorox Bleach would. That is if I use the bottle/packaging/labeling the products come in and give to the customers that way. With cost as it is, I would love to be able to ask customers to use Clorox Bleach after each soak instead of lithium... But my concern is thier safty in using liquid and the costs for lithium would not be accepted at all by the customer as well. Maybe a hand pump on the bottle would work and make the liquid more user friendly... I could give directions labled on the bottle as to how many pumps per soak hour? But still I am in a situation where people will not be receptive of the bleach. Now I could relable the Clorox Bleach in a different bottle (with the very same lable safty information) and omit anything that has to do with Clorox at the same time giving the dosage amounts after soaks. But then I would have to find a bottle I could use that will hold Clorox Bleach and have a pump.... hmmmmm Any thoughts? I am thinking this is the direction that needs to be taken... Expense is low so people will be happy. ~ Karl

[bart6453]

Richard ~ I was looking to the 12.5% chlorinating liquid because I thought it was the same as the 6% Clorox Regular bleach, only more concentrated. The reason for looking at that product is simplely I feel asking the customers to use the 12.5% chlorinating product will be accepted long before the Clorox Bleach would. That is if I use the bottle/packaging/labeling the products come in and give to the customers that way. With cost as it is, I would love to be able to ask customers to use Clorox Bleach after each soak instead of lithium... But my concern is thier safty in using liquid and the costs for lithium would not be accepted at all by the customer as well. Maybe a hand pump on the bottle would work and make the liquid more user friendly... I could give directions labled on the bottle as to how many pumps per soak hour? But still I am in a situation where people will not be receptive of the bleach. Now I could relable the Clorox Bleach in a different bottle (with the very same lable safty information) and omit anything that has to do with Clorox at the same time giving the dosage amounts after soaks. But then I would have to find a bottle I could use that will hold Clorox Bleach and have a pump.... hmmmmm Any thoughts? I am thinking this is the direction that needs to be taken... Expense is low so people will be happy. ~ Karl

My thoughts....if you want them..are this.

You seem to be getting in over your head.

You need some time with real world spa care to be able to run a consulting/care business for spa water quality.

Your questions seem to indicate that you have very little working knowledge of spa water maintenance.

Also, you seem to be building and basing a business on the advice from this board. While this board is by far the best source of real world spa care advice. I would never use an internet board as a basis for my future business's operating process without first having an intimate knowledge of the advice that I am being given.

With that said, Chem Geek's information is always spot on, and very, very good. For me I trust his advice more than anyone else I have talked to in person, or via internet board.

Keep in mind that the people that the best advice for your business will come from people who's best interests align with you and your business. No one on here has a vested interest in you or your business success.

Take that for what it's worth. Not trying to be a jerk, or tell you what do to, or how to do it....but I am just concerned that you may not have your poop in a group for the job you are trying to accomplish.

In the end, an improperly maintained hot tub can be a very, very dangerous place to be.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that if you use a plastic quart bottle Number 2 HDPE (High-density polyethylene) and have your customers pour the required amount into a 16 oz. plastic disposable cup (not paper or Styrofoam), that would work best.

I don't think that you should use a pump of any kind. I think that you want to avoid any type of pressure.

You could get some quart bottles made with whatever labels you want. The labels can be screen printed directly on the bottles or you can buy labels to apply to the bottles. Make sure that the labeling is waterproof, (no paper labels).

You could then make the bottles refillable. You would sell the customer a few bottles with a deposit for the bottles and then when the bottles are empty, the customer could return the bottles for full ones.

Doing a Google search for No. 2 HDPE (High-density polyethylene) bottles turns up a lot of suppliers.

[chem geek]

People are going to smell the chlorine bleach and pretty much figure out it's bleach, even if you were to use chlorinating liquid instead. If one is not careful, then one can splash it and bleach their clothing (or swimsuits) though that can also happen with powders -- it's just less likely.

So Bart's advice about listening to those who have actual businesses is right on. Perception means much more than reality to most people (it IS their reality, as far as they are concerned). The vast majority of spa companies seem (based on websites, forums, etc.) to simply use Dichlor-only if they are using chlorine. Yes, that causes the water to not last as long before issues occur, but they just deal with that either through additional products to keep the water clear or through more frequent water change. There is a potential risk of hot tub itch/rash from the lower sanitation after 1-2 months, but it's not definite (the sample size I collected on this forum was small and certainly not scientific).

I am sorry that there isn't a relatively inexpensive powder/granular form of chlorine that doesn't have significant additional chemical side effects such as increasing CYA or CH (or even salt, though that is least problematic). That's just the way the chemistry and availability of compounds and costs of mining and manufacturing processes worked out.

The way I see it, there are several options that can be given to customers (you can choose a subset of these to offer):

Dichlor (or CYA) then 6% Clorox Regular bleach -- works well for those willing to go this route (i.e. don't mind bleach)

Dichlor (or CYA) then Lithium Hypochlorite -- also works well but is much more expensive

Dichlor for regular use and Lithium Hypochlorite or MPS for shocking -- requires more frequent water change; may have more problems

Dichlor-only -- requires even more frequent water change and potentially more problems, but is what most spa dealers using chlorine probably do

Nature2 with MPS for regular use and Dichlor for shocking -- works well for those who want to avoid most halogen (chlorine, bromine) products, but is expensive

Bromine tabs in a floater with Dichlor for reactivation/shocking -- works well for those who don't mind bromine and want more convenience

Other non-conventional methods (AquaFinesse, SpaNaturally, etc.) -- not EPA approved without a sanitizer; riskier; for the "no chemicals" crowd

There are also ozonators to throw into the mix.

[quantumchromodynamics]

People use bleach all of the time. I think that the concern for spills is unwarranted. Pool stores sell "liquid chlorine" and no one has a problem with it. Just label it liquid chlorine (Sodium hypochlorite).

If someone asks if it is bleach, just tell them that liquid chlorine and bleach are both sodium hypochlorite and therefore they are basically the same thing.

COMMERCIAL SOLUTIONS® ULTRA CLOROX® GERMICIDAL BLEACH I (EPA Reg. No. 67619-8)

FOR SWIMMING POOL DISINFECTION

Page 1 of 3

Commercial Solutions® Ultra Clorox® Germicidal Bleach I is a 6.15% sodium hypochlorite solution, containing approximately 5.84% available chlorine by weight.

The purity of its ingredients and the carefully supervised process of its manufacture make Commercial Solutions® Ultra Clorox® Germicidal Bleach I a quality source of chlorine for water treatment in swimming and wading pools.

Commercial Solutions® Ultra Clorox® Germicidal Bleach I is especially suitable for use in chlorinators as it is a liquid and has no insoluble particles.

Commercial Solutions® Ultra Clorox® Germicidal Bleach I is widely used as a source of chlorine for swimming pool sanitation and does not have any adverse effects on materials used in pool construction including swimming pool liners.

http://cloroxprofessional.com/bsb.pdf, http://cloroxprofessional.com/pdf/servicebulletin.pdf

[bart6453]

People use bleach all of the time. I think that the concern for spills is unwarranted. Pool stores sell "liquid chlorine" and no one has a problem with it. Just label it liquid chlorine (Sodium hypochlorite).

If someone asks if it is bleach, just tell them that liquid chlorine and bleach are both sodium hypochlorite and therefore they are basically the same thing.

I would be vary wary about changing labels on anything, let alone bleach.

You will want to check national, state, and local laws about hazardous liquids.

Also, you will want to check laws regarding relabeling chemicals and possible legal issues due to product infringement.

From a civil point, if something very bad were to happen, I would hate to be in front of the jury explaining why you wanted to keep it from your customers that you were actually just selling them chlorox bleach. Then the customer's attorney would counter with the wonderful statement..."if they had only been informed by the defendant that it was bleach they would have handled the product differently and little Johhny would still be able to talk and see."

The best course would be to educate the people about chlorine and bleach so that you don't have to hide the truth from them.

[quantumchromodynamics]

As I noted before, pool stores sell "liquid chlorine" all of the time. The "liquid chlorine" is labeled properly although it does not say bleach.

It says "Sodium hypochlorite" and it gives the percent. Nothing is being hidden from anyone.

Most intelligent people will understand that "liquid chlorine" is going to need to be handled very carefully. No one is going to assume that liquid chlorine can be handled with any less care than other chemicals, such as bleach.

Yes, you are correct, the product does need to be labeled properly, and that is a very good point. If you want to see a proper label, go to the pool store and read the label on a jug of liquid chlorine.

Perhaps he needs to purchase liquid chlorine from a liquid chlorine supplier who can provide a proper solution including proper bottles that contain the proper labels.

[chem geek]

People use bleach all of the time.

For pools, yes it is fairly common, but not for spas. That is a much more recent use (except by a few; waterbear had written about its use here a while ago) because one needed to work out the much lower TA levels and use of 50 ppm Borates to help keep the pH more stable. Otherwise, with traditional TA one would tend to have a lot of pH rise and could get scaling. Also, using bleach only, with no CYA in the water, has the chlorine be too strong and wear on hot tub covers and possibly other components. Probably for these reasons, some hot tub manufacturers said not to use bleach.

So it is no question an uphill battle to try and offer a spa sanitation system using bleach to people who, for whatever reason, don't want to use that source of chlorine. I think the bigger question that needs to be answered is that not everyone uses their spa every day and is not going to be willing to add chlorine frequently. For occasional users, chlorine would be too much maintenance which is why bromine in a floating feeder tends to be better for such users (if they are using halogen-based sanitation; otherwise, they're on to alternative systems) though having an ozonator helps as well.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that as long as the customer is properly educated by a knowledgeable salesperson, then there should be no trouble. Most customers do not come in with a preconceived idea about spa maintenance and chemical balance. If they are properly educated from the beginning and they are supported by the sales person, then all should go well.

People read and use Nitro's methods all the time with good success. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem as long as they're properly educated.

I really don't think that it should be too much trouble for someone to open the hot tub cover every other day or so to do a quick chlorine test and add a few ounces of bleach as needed. Probably about 5 minutes or less every other day.

Of course, the method will not be ideal for everyone and alternative methods would need to be made available.

My statement about people "using bleach all of the time" was primarily related to safety of use. People use bleach every day for laundry etc, and don't have a problem spilling it everywhere.

Perhaps a salt system with an ORP controller would work out better for people who use the tub less regularly.

[kbaumann]

Thank you for both your concerns and advice! Everything that was said was beneficial! I know the direction I will take… I am going to used 3 methods.

1) Low to No chlorine method: Nature2 with MPS HERE (Leslies Fresh N Clear). I will supply the customer with the product and label it with instructions that are in the Nature 2 manual along with dosage that is custom to the size of spa they own. I will shock with liquid chlorine (hth 10%) only when needed.

2) Liquid chlorine method: Nature2 with liquid chlorine HERE (hth 10%). I will supply the customer with the product and label it with instructions that are in the Nature 2 manual along with dosage that is custom to the size of spa they own. I will shock with liquid chlorine (hth 10%)

3) Powder chlorine method: Nature2 with lithium HERE. I will supply the customer with the product and label it with instructions that are in the Nature 2 manual along with dosage that is custom to the size of spa they own. I will shock with liquid chlorine (hth 10%)

Pricing will be different for each service. The labels will not be a problem. Everything will be looked over by an attorney and the customers will have a service agreement they will sign stating the liabilities and obligations of both parties involved.

What I want to go back to is where Richard questioned why I want to use liquid chlorine. The reason is because of the customer only. The energy it will take to change a mind or to get warm and fuzzy feelings inside the customer is worth us paying a few extra dollars in product cost for the bottle/packaging. I want to be focusing our energy in building the relationship first… When a year of service has passed, and after a relationship of trust is established, we will consider change over to Clorox Bleach if it is cost effective.

Questions I have:

Is Clorox Bleach 6% and HTH liquid chlorinator 10% the same?

What are the differences?

Is there a better liquid chlorinator you know of?

And Richard you stated above: “Why are you looking at 12.5% chlorinating liquid instead of 6% Clorox Regular bleach? The chlorinating liquid will not last as long -- it breaks down around 4 times faster than the bleach when in concentrated form. Also the bleach has the least amount of excess lye in it which means it will have the lowest rate of pH rise (accounting for chlorine consumption/usage).” Why? Could you give me more details about the differences and what to expect?

What whould the dosage use be for the liquid chlorinator and lithium within the nature 2 manual guidelines HERE?

Karl

[chem geek]

As for the rate of degradation of chlorine at higher strength, you can see the half-life of high-quality bleach and chlorinating liquid in the table at the bottom of this link where you can see it is very temperature dependent, so store the chlorine in a cool place (definitely not in a hot shed or in the sun). So for 10% chlorine, half of its strength will be lost in 115 days (3-1/2 months) at a temperature of 90F while at 75F half is lost over a one year period. So this isn't a big deal so long as you keep the storage temperatures reasonable.

As for the amount of excess lye in the chlorinating liquid, I can't find an MSDS for the Arch Chemicals HTH Liquid Chlorine (10%). I want to know the pH. If the pH is 12.5 or lower, then that is reasonable. If it is 13.0, then this will tend to make the pH rise and need acid to compensate -- probably a pH rise of 0.2 units or more per week, depending on actual dosage. With 6% Clorox Regular, there is minimal excess lye with minimal effect on pH (obviously, the pH rises upon addition, but then drops as the chlorine gets used up).

I know that all of your options include Nature2, mostly as an insurance policy, but there have been several recent reports from Nature2 users that found that it didn't really protect their spas from going bad if sanitizer levels went to zero for an extended period of time (more than a day). Having an ozonator might have done better, but who knows? Maintaining a sanitizer level is the best way to keep a spa in good shape and that means using enough oxidizer/sanitizer to handle the bather load plus enough to cover normal daily losses.

[kbaumann]

Richard ~ Could you tell me the dosage that would be used for each product I am going to use? I dont know how much of a difference there will be with the extra additives there is in Fresh N Clear or the Lithium from In the Swim?

SYSTEM USING MPS & NATURE 2 ACCORDING TO NATURE 2 (Using Leslies Fresh N Clear)

1) Before Use: Test the water with MPS Test Strip. If the MPS level is low, add 1/2 ounce of MPS to spa per 250 gallons. Retest. If the test strip indicates levels below the OK range, add 1/2 ounce MPS to spa per 250 gallons and re-test. Enter spa only after test strip indicates a sufficient level of MPS.

2) After Use: Add 1/2 ounce of MPS to spa per 250 gallons.

3) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

USING LITHIUM SHOCK ONLY (Using lithium from In The Swim)

1) After Use: Add 1 ounce of Lithium to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

USING CLOROX BLEACH 6% ONLY

1) After Use: Add 5 fluid ounces of bleach to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

USING LIQUID CHLORINATOR ONLY (Using HTH 10%)

1) After Use: Add _____ fluid ounces of bleach to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

WITH MPS ACCORDING TO THE STATEMENT BELOW (Using Leslies Fresh N Clear)

1) After Use: Add 1.25 ounces of MPS to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

Richard, you stated "...per person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) tub is roughly 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach, 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor, 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) or 5-1/2 teaspoons of Lithium Hypochlorite... "

Also I remember reading you saying something about MPS oxidising certain things faster than chlorine???? Would it be ok to have MPS put in after the soak wiht chlorine as well? ALSO check my conversions from teaspoons to ounces... I have a feeling this will change from product to product?

Thanks Richard!

Karl

[chem geek]

6 teaspoons in an ounce (3 teaspoons in a tablespoon; 2 tablespoons in an ounce) and we're talking ounces of volume, not weight. The MPS amounts assume 43% MPS -- note that some brands of MPS have a lower amount of the potassium monopersulfate active ingredient so you may need to scale up accordingly. Also note that the rule-of-thumb for oxidizer needed for bather-load is just that -- a rule of thumb. If an ozonator is present, the amount of oxidizer needed may be far less. If the people are very clean and don't sweat as much, it could be less; if they are dirty and sweat a lot, it could be more. As time goes on and the filters get dirtier, the daily chlorine demand even with no bather load will go up.

So with all of the above factors, the real rule is to add enough oxidizer/sanitizer after a soak such that you measure a small residual (1-2 ppm FC; MPS in the "good" range on a test strip) before the next soak. You don't ever want the sanitizer level to get to zero for an extended period (the only time is during the soak itself -- this assumes not using high chlorine levels before the soak since most people want to avoid that due to smell and dry skin).

Also note that Nature2 has specific instructions for dosing that are different than described above (especially for chlorine), though their dosing is fixed in concentration (i.e. varies with tub size) and is independent of bather load. That is because it is focused on a sanitation level they needed to pass the EPA tests and are ignoring the need for more to handle higher bather loads. Technically, they want you to maintain that sanitizer level, but if the bather load is high then such levels can get to zero for a while before the next soak and that could be a problem though they probably figure that gets handled with the adjustment done before the soak.

My comments in bold below:

Richard ~ Could you tell me the dosage that would be used for each product I am going to use? I dont know how much of a difference there will be with the extra additives there is in Fresh N Clear or the Lithium from In the Swim?

SYSTEM USING MPS & NATURE 2 ACCORDING TO NATURE 2 (Using Leslies Fresh N Clear)

1) Before Use: Test the water with MPS Test Strip. If the MPS level is low, add 1/2 ounce of MPS to spa per 250 gallons. Retest. If the test strip indicates levels below the OK range, add 1/2 ounce MPS to spa per 250 gallons and re-test. Enter spa only after test strip indicates a sufficient level of MPS.

2) After Use: Add 1/2 ounce of MPS to spa per 250 gallons.

3) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

This is the Nature2 recommendation of 1 tablespoon MPS per 250 gallons. For a typical spa size of 350 gallons, that's 2.8 teaspoons which is roughly enough to handle 24 person-minutes of soaking in a hot (near 104F) tub. The dose before and after combined would handle double this, so around 48 person-minutes. These dosages would seem to be for relatively low bather loads -- if you have 2 or more people soaking for 30 minutes or more, then the MPS level could get to zero before the next soak (if no ozonator). The shocking with bleach every 2 weeks will help "catch up" if there is excess left to oxidize, but it's really hard to know. Basically, if one is always measuring near zero MPS before the soak, they probably need to use more (at least use more after the soak) so that they at least get to Low before the soak where they can add some more to get to Normal before the soak.

Don't forget that MPS is acidic so usually a TA level of at least 80 is needed to have a fairly stable pH. Over time, baking soda will need to be added to maintain pH.

USING LITHIUM SHOCK ONLY (Using lithium from In The Swim)

1) After Use: Add 1 ounce of Lithium to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

Close enough. Probably best to measure before the soak every now and then to see how things are going. If the FC is too high, then use less; if it's too low, then use more. Technically, you probably don't need to shock at all if the FC is never getting too low.

Don't forget that when using a hypochlorite source of chlorine as the daily sanitizer/oxidizer, you need to have the TA be lower (50-60 ppm, usually) to have the pH be more stable and that it is best to also have 50 ppm Borates.

USING CLOROX BLEACH 6% ONLY

1) After Use: Add 5 fluid ounces of bleach to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

Same advice as with the lithium hypochlorite approach.

USING LIQUID CHLORINATOR ONLY (Using HTH 10%)

1) After Use: Add _____ fluid ounces of bleach to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

Save advice as with the lithium hypochlorite approach. You would use 3 fluid ounces of 10% liquid chlorine per person-hour, at least as a rule-of-thumb starting point.

WITH MPS ACCORDING TO THE STATEMENT BELOW (Using Leslies Fresh N Clear)

1) After Use: Add 1.25 ounces of MPS to spa per person-hour of soaking.

2) Will shock with Clorox Bleach 6% every 14 days.

You should not use this method (that is, MPS alone) without Nature2. MPS by itself is NOT an EPA approved sanitizer. The dosage is a little less than what you show, but that's OK since you really need to adjust (which is harder since test strips don't give absolute readings for this). If the MPS isn't 43%, then the dosage required may be higher. In this method of using MPS, the shocking with chlorine is usually required.

Don't forget that MPS is acidic so usually a TA level of at least 80 is needed to have a fairly stable pH. Over time, baking soda will need to be added to maintain pH.

Richard, you stated "...per person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) tub is roughly 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach, 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor, 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) or 5-1/2 teaspoons of Lithium Hypochlorite... "

Also I remember reading you saying something about MPS oxidising certain things faster than chlorine???? Would it be ok to have MPS put in after the soak wiht chlorine as well? ALSO check my conversions from teaspoons to ounces... I have a feeling this will change from product to product?

I wouldn't worry too much about using both MPS and chlorine after each soak. The buildup of things that chlorine is better at oxidizing doesn't happen on a single soak. From the reports on this forum, it seems that most people using N2+MPS do the chlorine shock weekly and that prevents the cloudiness sometimes seen with MPS (with Nature2). You could try the shocking every 2 weeks with chlorine to see if things are OK, but you might need to increase the frequency to once a week, especially for higher bather load situations.

Thanks Richard!

Karl