Help With Water Balance Low Ta, High Ph.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Derek jr, I know that this can seem complicated at first, especially if it seems that you're getting conflicting advice.

Nitro says to aerate and I say not to. I think that Nitro's method is fine for someone who is more experienced, knows how much acid to use and the balance points for their chemistry.

However, for a person with less experience, it can be easy to overshoot their balance point. I think that that's what happened to you. You probably added too much acid, which lowered your pH too much and then the aeration caused you to lose too much alkalinity.

I think that taking the process a little slower will help you find the natural balance point for your tub. Adding borates and cyanurates will also help reduce pH rise. The pKa₁ for boric acid (H₃BO₃) is about 9.24. So, most of the boron will be in the form of boric acid.

Note: When the pH equals the pKa, the acid will be half dissociated into its associated base. If the pH is below the pKa, then the acid/base equilibrium will be more acid than its associated base. Therefore, for preventing pH rise, you want an acid with a pKa higher than your water's pH.

Carbonic acid (H₂CO₃) has a pKa₁ of 6.37 (carbonic acid becomes bicarbonate (HCO₃^-)) and a pKa₂ of 10.82 where bicarbonate becomes carbonate (CO₃^-2).

At normal tub pH, most of the carbonic acid will have dissociated into bicarbonate. Therefore, carbonate and bicarbonate alkalinity will be more helpful at preventing pH drop.

[DerekJr]

You guys are sooooo hepfull!

Anyway today I decided to add nature2 cartridge (for backup purposes) and put in some dichlor to ~10ppm.

Wow! My PH went down to 7.2 from the dichlor being added. I thought well let's aerate and see what happens. 7.5 and the PH stabilized. What in the world?

TA is at 30ppm. I aerated for an hour to see if it would shoot pass 8 and it did stabilize.

The dichlor not only dropped my PH but it stabilized it.

Its been a few hours and now the PH is ~7.2 and stable.

So now I am thinking I did maybe overshoot it a bit, but I don't understand how the dichlor could have done this? One thing to note is my original 9-10PPM dichlor is down down to ~4.5ppm after 5-6 hours. I wonder if something in the spa is being killed that was throwing my numbers off.

So weird. Were are gonna use the spa tonight for a bit and Ill of course be checking everything and see what happens overnight. If the PH stays low or where it is at tomorrow morning.

If I would have added dichlor sooner, I wonder if everything would have been okay, Thoughts?

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that you're starting to get close to a good balance. Just take things slowly and try to use the minimum amount of chemicals. I think that as long as your pH is between 7.3 and 7.9, then you're doing well.

7.2 is a little low, but I wouldn't try to adjust it until you give it some time to balance. If it continues to stay below 7.3, then I would use a little bit of baking soda, sodium carbonate or Borax to raise it up.

Dissolve any dry chemicals in a clean plastic bucket before pouring them into the tub.

Dichlor is somewhat acidic, so that would cause some pH drop.

Go ahead and get some borate test strips so that you can test for borates after you have added them. Borax is a source of borates, so if you use any Borax to adjust your pH, you will need to use slightly less of the Gentle Spa product.

[d1 wayfarer]

> 1) Do you use dry acid or muriatic acid?

> 2) What product did you use to add borates to your tub?

> 3) What test do you use to test your boron (borates) level?

1) I started with only the ph minus. Then got some muratic acid and began using both every other application. I would put a tsp of store bought pH minus, then four hours later would add a little muratic, then finish the night with another tsp of pH minus... then do it all over again the next day.

2) Borates I used the 20 mule team and muratic acid at about week 1-2. Added half recommended by the pool calculator and then waited a week to add the rest.

3) I brought a sample in about every week and a half. My dealer's test gives a "silken" rating of the test water, which I guess I just assumed is the borates. It was 23 to begin and now sits at 44 after a second application.

[grunt66]

I have been following this post since I have been having the same problems with my Jacuzzi J-480. I am using the nature 2 cartridge and per my dealer and the nature 2 instructions it is a low chlorine maintenance cycle. I am using the Taylor K2006 test kit. My ph readings have also been at the 8 range. Using the Taylor acid demand test, I used two drops to get the correct color shade for the ph drop. I added the correct amount of muriatic acid per Taylor table (Table E). The next morning the ph is still at the 8.0 range. I have done this two times already and each time the Acid demand test takes two drops (R-0005) to get the correct ph level and I add the appropriate amount of muriatic acid. I am using MPS (Sea Klear Chlorine Free Shock) as a daily sanitizer. Now the interesting thing is I am using the nature 2 test strips to check the MPS level and it also checks ph and the ph reading on the strip is at the 7.6 level (ok area) when the Talyor test kit is reading 8.0. I have heard the test strips are not accurate but this interesting to say the least. The wife and I like to use the air jets in J-480 while soaking in the tub, I understand by previous posts this might raise the ph level.

We have owned the J-480 for one month. The water is crystal clear in clarity. Here is the maintenance cycle that I am using per the dealer and Nature 2:

- Using Sea Klear Chlorine free shock (MPS) daily, checked via nature test stips.

- Chlorine (Sodium DichloroTriazinetrione Dihydrate) once a week, two teaspoons per dealer, Nature 2 says to add only when water becomes cloudy that I am not following.

On a side note my Ta started in the 130ppm and it is down to 70ppm as of this morning and the Ph is still at 8.0. I did the Acid demand test and it took 2 drops to get the correct Ph color shade.

Any and all help is appreciated.

[d1 wayfarer]

My pH is again at 7.6 today.

This is the first time in the month we've owned that pH tested below 7.7 for three days in a row. Never had that before. this must be where our tub wants to be. TA 40ish, PH 7.7, CH 175, borates 44.

So is it that some people will not be able to balance water to thier target?

My dreams were to get this tub, peg everything (TA, CH, pH, borates), and sit in totally balanced water.

[chem geek]

There is nothing wrong with a pH of 7.7 and if that is where your spa likes to sit, I'd leave it, especially since you've already lowered the TA and added the Borates.

[DerekJr]

I have been following this post since I have been having the same problems with my Jacuzzi J-480. I am using the nature 2 cartridge and per my dealer and the nature 2 instructions it is a low chlorine maintenance cycle. I am using the Taylor K2006 test kit. My ph readings have also been at the 8 range. Using the Taylor acid demand test, I used two drops to get the correct color shade for the ph drop. I added the correct amount of muriatic acid per Taylor table (Table E). The next morning the ph is still at the 8.0 range. I have done this two times already and each time the Acid demand test takes two drops (R-0005) to get the correct ph level and I add the appropriate amount of muriatic acid. I am using MPS (Sea Klear Chlorine Free Shock) as a daily sanitizer. Now the interesting thing is I am using the nature 2 test strips to check the MPS level and it also checks ph and the ph reading on the strip is at the 7.6 level (ok area) when the Talyor test kit is reading 8.0. I have heard the test strips are not accurate but this interesting to say the least. The wife and I like to use the air jets in J-480 while soaking in the tub, I understand by previous posts this might raise the ph level.

We have owned the J-480 for one month. The water is crystal clear in clarity. Here is the maintenance cycle that I am using per the dealer and Nature 2:

- Using Sea Klear Chlorine free shock (MPS) daily, checked via nature test stips.

- Chlorine (Sodium DichloroTriazinetrione Dihydrate) once a week, two teaspoons per dealer, Nature 2 says to add only when water becomes cloudy that I am not following.

On a side note my Ta started in the 130ppm and it is down to 70ppm as of this morning and the Ph is still at 8.0. I did the Acid demand test and it took 2 drops to get the correct Ph color shade.

Any and all help is appreciated.

I found the same thing with test strips. Completely worthless! Yesterday when I put in 10PPM of dichlor (reading for the k2006) my test strips said very little chlorine, like 1-2ppm. My PH does the same thing with strips. When the k2006 says over 8+ the strips will say like 7.6 or somewhere in there. I find strips to be completely worthless and had it not been from research I would have never known better. Strips should be outlawed and seriously if a dealer is reputable and knows there stuff, they will educate customers. Seems like most don't cause everyone I know that has a spa uses strips!

From reading the Nature2 manual, you are doing it correctly. However you can also use Chlorine (dichlor) as your main source and use MPS once a week to shock. I believe it takes roughly 1/3 less chlorine then MPS if you go that way. Right now I am going to keep a little chlorine in at all times - 1-3PPM and I use MPS before and after soaking. I feel safer having a little chlorine in there. Then once a week I am going to shock with dichlor to 10ppm.

That is what I am doing right now but since there is so much to take in with all this new learning I may switch to Nitro's bleach method. I like that idea but one step at a time for me. The main thing I like about his method with nature 2, is the nature 2 acts kind of like a backup, just in case you forget to monitor one day, etc. At least that is how I feel about it, and I really like that your CYA doesn't skyrocket! So well see what route I am going to take.

From my testing as you can read, so far when I run the jet's it does indeed raise the PH, but if you read Nitro's post about water balance, when your TA is where is wants to be the PH will rise and then stop at a certain point. For me the TA is just really low.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I don't think that there's any need to shock on a regular basis if you have been keeping your free chlorine level steady and you are not getting any combined chlorine. Have you had any combined chlorine yet?

Once your cyanuric acid gets to 20 to 40 ppm, you should switch over to bleach. Dichlor adds cyanuric acid, which is good initially to add some cyanuric acid, but it will quickly get too high if you continue to use it as your primary source of chlorine.