Calcium Needed In Onzen (salt Water) System

[ottawa_mike]

New Arctic Spa Summit owner - quite happy with the tub though had a defective Onzen system from the get go - go figure (based on what I have now read on this forum)!

Since the water refill, things have been working farily well though struggling with Alkalinity too low and then PH too high (vicious cycle up and down between the two.) I seem to get a bit of cloudiness if PH is high but then it goes away once I add PH down. It just seems like I am always tweaking things. In reading this forum and getting a water test at another hot tub vendor I am starting to wonder if my water hardness ( lack there of) is a factor.

Artic says there is no need to adjust my calcium in my system since I am on city water. From what has been measured at another hot tub store, they indicated my calcium was at about 20 and I should get it over 100. This forum seems to says the same thing - ie. bring calcium above 100 and then work on Alkalinity and the PH.

Called Arctic spa dealer back and they said, "no, it should not be an issue since your on a salt water system" - though they did not have alot of conviction in their answer. Can anyone help?

[Nitro]

New Arctic Spa Summit owner - quite happy with the tub though had a defective Onzen system from the get go - go figure (based on what I have now read on this forum)!

Since the water refill, things have been working farily well though struggling with Alkalinity too low and then PH too high (vicious cycle up and down between the two.) I seem to get a bit of cloudiness if PH is high but then it goes away once I add PH down. It just seems like I am always tweaking things. In reading this forum and getting a water test at another hot tub vendor I am starting to wonder if my water hardness ( lack there of) is a factor.

If your pH is too high, your Alkalinity is NOT too low. You need to lower your Alkalinity until pH is correct. Forget the range for Alkalinity, it means nothing. Read the top link below (Water Balance section). BTW, what is your TA?

Artic says there is no need to adjust my calcium in my system since I am on city water. From what has been measured at another hot tub store, they indicated my calcium was at about 20 and I should get it over 100. This forum seems to says the same thing - ie. bring calcium above 100 and then work on Alkalinity and the PH.

Artic is wrong, which doesn't surprise me. If your Calcium is 20 ppm, you need to raise it to at least 100 ppm. Again read the Water Balance section below.

Called Arctic spa dealer back and they said, "no, it should not be an issue since your on a salt water system" - though they did not have alot of conviction in their answer. Can anyone help?

That dealer is talking BS, which doesn't surprise me. Your Calcium should be around 100-150 ppm. If it's 20 ppm, that's way to low. My advice is to add Calcium, and stop talking to dealers.

[ottawa_mike]

New Arctic Spa Summit owner - quite happy with the tub though had a defective Onzen system from the get go - go figure (based on what I have now read on this forum)!

Since the water refill, things have been working farily well though struggling with Alkalinity too low and then PH too high (vicious cycle up and down between the two.) I seem to get a bit of cloudiness if PH is high but then it goes away once I add PH down. It just seems like I am always tweaking things. In reading this forum and getting a water test at another hot tub vendor I am starting to wonder if my water hardness ( lack there of) is a factor.

If your pH is too high, your Alkalinity is NOT too low. You need to lower your Alkalinity until pH is correct. Forget the range for Alkalinity, it means nothing. Read the top link below (Water Balance section). BTW, what is your TA?

Artic says there is no need to adjust my calcium in my system since I am on city water. From what has been measured at another hot tub store, they indicated my calcium was at about 20 and I should get it over 100. This forum seems to says the same thing - ie. bring calcium above 100 and then work on Alkalinity and the PH.

Artic is wrong, which doesn't surprise me. If your Calcium is 20 ppm, you need to raise it to at least 100 ppm. Again read the Water Balance section below.

Called Arctic spa dealer back and they said, "no, it should not be an issue since your on a salt water system" - though they did not have alot of conviction in their answer. Can anyone help?

That dealer is talking BS, which doesn't surprise me. Your Calcium should be around 100-150 ppm. If it's 20 ppm, that's way to low. My advice is to add Calcium, and stop talking to dealers.

I don't think I explained this well - what happens is that when my TA reading is fine, my PH reading is often high. So, I add PH down and the next day the PH is lowered but then my TA reading is lower than the acceptable range. So, I add buffer to raise the TA and the PH goes up as well. I will have to get a proper test kit - as you can guess all I have been equipped with is test strips and, driving 30 minutes to the dealer for a water test can;t happen every few days! I will get my water tested tomorrow and post. Regardless, I will add something to rasie CA as well.

.

[Nitro]

I don't think I explained this well - what happens is that when my TA reading is fine, my PH reading is often high. So, I add PH down and the next day the PH is lowered but then my TA reading is lower than the acceptable range. So, I add buffer to raise the TA and the PH goes up as well.

No, you explained it perfectly. I'm the who didn't explained this well. Your TA is NOT fine if your pH is reading high. FORGET trying to get TA in an "acceptable range". There is no such thing. Adjust TA so that your pH is fine. If that's 50 ppm so be it. Again, read my top link below, the Water Balance section for a detailed explination. Also, check out the link, "Lowering TA".

I will have to get a proper test kit - as you can guess all I have been equipped with is test strips and, driving 30 minutes to the dealer for a water test can;t happen every few days! I will get my water tested tomorrow and post. Regardless, I will add something to rasie CA as well.

This is the reason why it's so difficult to balance your water with test strips. You need to be able to measure TA and pH precisely. Test strips just don't cut it.

[Ron3549]

You need to be able to measure TA and pH precisely. Test strips just don't cut it.

All I have used is test strips. I think the Spa dealers have those mini test tube kits.

Do you have suggestions on what to look for in a test kit or where to get them?

...

I found some answers in the other forum topics: Taylor K-2006 was one that was mentioned.

[quantumchromodynamics]

https://asp5.secure-shopping.com/spspools/d...=1200&path=

[James Keirstead]

I agree with Nitro. If you are getting an accurate pH reading and not experiencing pH bounce then leave your Alkalinity alone. I also agree that if your Calcium hardness is 20 ppm you should consider adding some calcium hardness increaser to get your hardness level above 100 ppm. Personally I like to keep it to just over 100 ppm and not the NSPI recommended level as too much calcium is problematic in spas. There is a couple of things to remember when adding calcium to water:

1. Make sure your pH is in the ideal range before adding calcium. If it is high, it can cause the calcium to precipitate, which will make your water go milky white for days and clog your filter.

2. Aways pre-dissolve Calcium in cold water. The chemical compound used to put calcium in your water generates it's own heat.

3. I prefer to add Calcium in thirds instead of all at once. I test and adjust my pH between additions. Usually I also wait an hour between each addition.

Test strips are convenient but not very accurate. If you someone that is very particular about the readings you are getting for your spa, then you need to go to a liquid drop test kit like Nitro suggests. If you are happy to just get a general idea of how your water is, and I mean very general, then test strips will work. If you are having water quality issues though, you will not be able to make adjustments based on what test strips tell you.

Does that help?

James

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

New Arctic Spa Summit owner - quite happy with the tub though had a defective Onzen system from the get go - go figure (based on what I have now read on this forum)!

Since the water refill, things have been working farily well though struggling with Alkalinity too low and then PH too high (vicious cycle up and down between the two.) I seem to get a bit of cloudiness if PH is high but then it goes away once I add PH down. It just seems like I am always tweaking things. In reading this forum and getting a water test at another hot tub vendor I am starting to wonder if my water hardness ( lack there of) is a factor.

If your pH is too high, your Alkalinity is NOT too low. You need to lower your Alkalinity until pH is correct. Forget the range for Alkalinity, it means nothing. Read the top link below (Water Balance section). BTW, what is your TA?

Artic says there is no need to adjust my calcium in my system since I am on city water. From what has been measured at another hot tub store, they indicated my calcium was at about 20 and I should get it over 100. This forum seems to says the same thing - ie. bring calcium above 100 and then work on Alkalinity and the PH.

Artic is wrong, which doesn't surprise me. If your Calcium is 20 ppm, you need to raise it to at least 100 ppm. Again read the Water Balance section below.

Called Arctic spa dealer back and they said, "no, it should not be an issue since your on a salt water system" - though they did not have alot of conviction in their answer. Can anyone help?

That dealer is talking BS, which doesn't surprise me. Your Calcium should be around 100-150 ppm. If it's 20 ppm, that's way to low. My advice is to add Calcium, and stop talking to dealers.

Not all dealers are stupid, maybe he needs to talk to the correct local dealer. The internet gives a lot of bad advice too, see it here often.

[Nitro]

Not all dealers are stupid, maybe he needs to talk to the correct local dealer. The internet gives a lot of bad advice too, see it here often.

Yes, you are correct. I should re-phrase that to say, "Stop talking to YOUR dealer".

[quantumchromodynamics]

Ottawa Mike, I think that you have to choose between two possible risks.

A low calcium might cause some of your spa components to experience a shorter than normal life. However, I don't believe that there is hard evidence to back this up.

If your calcium is too high, then your cell will scale, which could cause premature failure.

I think that it's a judgment call as to where to put the calcium to achieve the best overall results.

I think that you have to decide based on the perceived risk times the value to you of a shortened life of spa components vs. risk of scale shortening the life of your cell and the value to you of that possibility.

I would keep the calcium where it gives you a CSI of

-0.3 and monitor the cell for scaling.

[ottawa_mike]

I agree with Nitro. If you are getting an accurate pH reading and not experiencing pH bounce then leave your Alkalinity alone. I also agree that if your Calcium hardness is 20 ppm you should consider adding some calcium hardness increaser to get your hardness level above 100 ppm. Personally I like to keep it to just over 100 ppm and not the NSPI recommended level as too much calcium is problematic in spas. There is a couple of things to remember when adding calcium to water:

1. Make sure your pH is in the ideal range before adding calcium. If it is high, it can cause the calcium to precipitate, which will make your water go milky white for days and clog your filter.

2. Aways pre-dissolve Calcium in cold water. The chemical compound used to put calcium in your water generates it's own heat.

3. I prefer to add Calcium in thirds instead of all at once. I test and adjust my pH between additions. Usually I also wait an hour between each addition.

Test strips are convenient but not very accurate. If you someone that is very particular about the readings you are getting for your spa, then you need to go to a liquid drop test kit like Nitro suggests. If you are happy to just get a general idea of how your water is, and I mean very general, then test strips will work. If you are having water quality issues though, you will not be able to make adjustments based on what test strips tell you.

Does that help?

James

Thanks James (et all)! This definately helps.

Mike

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I would check with the salt system manufacturer. I know with the Gensis system (creates bromine from salt) you can not add stuff like calcium or anything that may have minerals or salts. It ruins the electrodes, thats part of why you must use the pre filter with it also. Check with the generator manufactuer to see what they say before you ruin the system. Low CH is not a bad thing in a hot tub, they are not plaster, just keep you PH and Alk in check.