HomePC Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 I have a 2000 Sundance Cameo. I had a "FLO" error and replaced the Flow switch which solved that problem. Later on, the tub had been tripping the GFCI every so often and had a small leak (I'm guessing about 1-2 gallons a day), and I never knew why. This went on for almost a year. I just kept adding water to the tub. THe circulation pump went out and I replaced it. Things worked well although I still had the small leak and occassional GFCI trip (very sensitive switch, especially during lighting storms). This winter I went out and the tub was shut off and the flow lines by the flow switch casing had broke and the tub was about 1/3rd drained. I immediately drained the water out of the tub (it is outdoors in Nebraska) and opened all valves to keep it from freezing. I ordered and replaced the flow switch assembly, but when filling up the tub, I noticed it was still leaking profoundly from the heater housing onto the circulation pump. I believe this was my original problem that may have been causing the GFCI to trip. I redrained the tub, took out the heater assembly, and took it apart and sure enough, there was a 1/8" sized-hole in the heater housing. I'm guessing the hole got worst but that it was the source of my original leak and GFCI tripping problem as the heater sits directly above the circulation pump. Probably why the old circulation pump went bad also. I ordered a new heater assembly (another two weeks went by with the hot-tub drained again in cold weather). I installed the heater, refilled the tub, and hit the GFCI. The pumps sounded off, but things appeared frozen. I immediately shut the thing off and decided I better wait until warmer weather when the tub could thaw out. When the weather warmed up, I refilled the tub and reset the GFCI. The main pumps worked and pumped water water. But after about 30 seconds, the heater housing melted to an ugly mass and I had ugly burnt plastic smelling smoke. That brand new $200 heater assembly was ruined. My questions are: 1. why did that happen? I thought the heater wasn't even suppose to turn on unless the circulation pump was pushing water through it and making the flow switch contacts touch. The only thing I can think of is that the flow switch was faulty (shorted), but then why didn't the high-limit sensor switch shut it off before that much damage was done? 2. How can I test the High-limit sensor switch? 3. What's the best way to test my fairly new circulation pump? I have ordered a new heater assembly and will install it, but I will NOT hook up the main leads to it until I can verify things are in order. I don't want another melt-down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 sounds like you got stuck heater relay on the circuit board. put the new heater in, Dont connect the power leads to the heater... check the flow switch with an ohm meter, should be open when circ pump is off and have continuity when the pump is running. test for voltage where the heater connects, turn the temp down so the spa is not calling for heat... if there is 240 still, the heater relay is fused closed and circuit board needs repaired/replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted May 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Sounds like an excellent way to test the relay. I have ordered parts and will get them in a few days. Will post back with my results. I am also replacing the temp sensor and high-limit sensor while I have the tub pulled apart. I will keep the old ones as back ups. The flow switch is already new from my meltdown. I will retest it also. Thanx for the reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Update: Got the parts. I replaced the flow switch, high-limit sensor, and temp sensor. All tested out fine. I tested the old sensors/switch and they tested out fine also. I'm hoping my circuit board isn't the problem. I will get the heater installed and fill the tub up and post back with some voltage readings on the 'disconnected' heater element. I will also retest the flow switch while the tub is in operation (circ. pump on/off). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Ok, I got the heater installed and started checking the pumps. The two main pumps and the blower seem to work fine. I noticed that when the 2-speed main pump is on, that the 'flow switch' closes and the heater circuit turns on. I can actually hear the breaker clicking. I guess my breakers/relays are okay. While the 2-speed motor is running (flow switch closed, heater circuit on) my voltage is 240vAC across the heater terminals (Red/Black 240vac, Red/Ground 120vac, Black/Ground 120vac). When it is off, I have a "FLO" error and the voltage is 40vAC across the heater terminals (Red/Black 40vac, Red/Ground 120vac, Black/Ground 0vac). Obviously, the circulation pump isn't kicking on. The voltage levels on the circulation pump are as follows: Heater Circuit on thanx to the 2-speed main pump: (Black/White 240vac, Black/Ground 120vac, White/Ground 120vac). Heater Circuit off: (Black/White 240vac, Black/Ground 120vac, White/Ground 120vac). Should the circulation pump always have 240vac across its leads? Does this indicate that my circ. pump is defective? It is only 1 year old. Here's a link to the model I purchased to replace the original. My tub is a 2000 Sundance Cameo, Controller 850LCD. Laing Model: E10-NHW-20 http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/6000-125su...m1995-2008.aspx I'm still wondering why I had a meltdown on my last heater if the relays aren't fused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I guess I'm suppose to have 240vac across the circ. pump leads all the time. My circuit board seems to be fine. The circ pump plumbing feeds off of the 2-speed motor, which is why the flow switch can close if I run the 2-speed motor. But, the circ pump never runs. Since the 2-speed flows through the circ pump then through the heater and then through the flow switch on its way out, wouldn't that mean that I couldn't have an air lock? I loosened the clamps on the hoses and let a little water drain from both sides on the circ pump. It still won't kick on. Don't even hear it hum or try to kick on. This pump is only 13 months old. I thought Laing was suppose to be such a good pump. I'm tempted to say to hell with the circ pump and just use the 2-speed motor to heat the tub, at least during the summer. I have filtration cycles set for every 6 hours. The tub could heat during the filtration cycles which are 30 minutes. Why do we need a circ pump to be constantly on. I do know I'll never buy a Sundance again. They're suppose to be so great but I've replaced 1 main pump, a control panel, flow switch twice, circ pump once, heater once all in addition to replacing the heater, flow switch, temp sensor, high-limit sensor for this latest problem. Now it looks as if I have to replace the circ pump again. I'm getting pretty bummed with this hottub. I'm about ready to start scrapping it and placing parts on Craig's list!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I guess I'm suppose to have 240vac across the circ. pump leads all the time. My circuit board seems to be fine. The circ pump plumbing feeds off of the 2-speed motor, which is why the flow switch can close if I run the 2-speed motor. But, the circ pump never runs. Since the 2-speed flows through the circ pump then through the heater and then through the flow switch on its way out, wouldn't that mean that I couldn't have an air lock? I loosened the clamps on the hoses and let a little water drain from both sides on the circ pump. It still won't kick on. Don't even hear it hum or try to kick on. This pump is only 13 months old. I thought Laing was suppose to be such a good pump. I'm tempted to say to hell with the circ pump and just use the 2-speed motor to heat the tub, at least during the summer. I have filtration cycles set for every 6 hours. The tub could heat during the filtration cycles which are 30 minutes. Why do we need a circ pump to be constantly on. I do know I'll never buy a Sundance again. They're suppose to be so great but I've replaced 1 main pump, a control panel, flow switch twice, circ pump once, heater once all in addition to replacing the heater, flow switch, temp sensor, high-limit sensor for this latest problem. Now it looks as if I have to replace the circ pump again. I'm getting pretty bummed with this hottub. I'm about ready to start scrapping it and placing parts on Craig's list!! You need a circ pump... thats your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted June 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I agree, I need a circ. pump. But I'm still baffled on why my heater melted. If the circ pump is bad, then the flow switch should've been opened causing the heater circuit to turn off. The only way the flow switch could've closed is with the 2-speed motor pumping water through the heater core, in which case the heater shouldn'tve melted. Baffled. Even with bad temp sensors, there's NO WAY the heater could've reached a critical temp in such a short testing period, not with water flowing through it. I mean, what's the point of having a flow switch if the heater is still going to melt down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 The heater had to of been dry fired... some how, some way. When that flashing flo is on the screen you should not get any voltage to the heater across the red and black going to the heater. Did you put the hi limit sensor back in the heater thermo well also? a possible explaination could be, the flow switch is bad (stuck closed).. The main pump was not primed or air locked... circ pump was dead as stated, the pc board reads the flow as ok and closes the heater relays and dry fires the heater. either way, replace the circ pump and dont hook up the heater unless your sure there is good water flow and the flow switch is ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted June 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I've been thinking along the same lines and I think your advice is right on. I appreciate your help. I will post back when I get the new circ pump, around $160.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomePC Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I replaced the circ pump and all seems well. I have control over the temperature; the tub is heating up fine. Must've had a dry-fire last time, possible caused by not priming the old circ pump first. I still say the old flow switch must've been acting up, even though it tested okay after I replaced it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countspacula Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Ok, I got the heater installed and started checking the pumps. The two main pumps and the blower seem to work fine. I noticed that when the 2-speed main pump is on, that the 'flow switch' closes and the heater circuit turns on. I can actually hear the breaker clicking. I guess my breakers/relays are okay. While the 2-speed motor is running (flow switch closed, heater circuit on) my voltage is 240vAC across the heater terminals (Red/Black 240vac, Red/Ground 120vac, Black/Ground 120vac). When it is off, I have a "FLO" error and the voltage is 40vAC across the heater terminals (Red/Black 40vac, Red/Ground 120vac, Black/Ground 0vac). Obviously, the circulation pump isn't kicking on. The voltage levels on the circulation pump are as follows: Heater Circuit on thanx to the 2-speed main pump: (Black/White 240vac, Black/Ground 120vac, White/Ground 120vac). Heater Circuit off: (Black/White 240vac, Black/Ground 120vac, White/Ground 120vac). Should the circulation pump always have 240vac across its leads? Does this indicate that my circ. pump is defective? It is only 1 year old. Here's a link to the model I purchased to replace the original. My tub is a 2000 Sundance Cameo, Controller 850LCD. Laing Model: E10-NHW-20 <a href="http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/6000-125sundancespascirculationpump240voltnewcirculationpumpfromsundanceusedonall240voltsystemsfrom1995-2008.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/6000-125su...m1995-2008.aspx</a> I'm still wondering why I had a meltdown on my last heater if the relays aren't fused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countspacula Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 There are 3 relays for the heater circuit, one is a seperate "slave" if you will, the other 2 are "tandem" type. usually when the heater energizes, without flow, the SLAVE is the culprit. If the circ dies, and the flow switch stays closed, the high limit is supposed to save the heater. If the high limit fails to catch it quick enough, the element can burn through, to water and continue to "heat" the thing, but at a pretty low kw. rate. Theory is this: your circ stopped, or the slave relay stuck, the element burned through and used water to make its "loop", sometimes with a breaker trip, sometimes not (I have seen spas with 240 volt, in the water, and the breaker still not tripped!!) even if the circ did not die, if the slave stuck, it heated full time. One way to tell if heater circuitry is good is to lower the topside control below the actual temp of the water, after a minute or less, there should be NO voltage going to the heater, no mater what the circ, hi limit, flow switch is doing. Hi limits on this type of heater, usually dont catch it in time. I think just that happened, the element melted stuff, including the hi limit wiring, and continued being energized until it melted apart. The laing is the weak link, take it from someone that has worked on spas for 20 years, use a grundfos pump!!!! A simple relay and pressure switch install between circ and heater (the duo, which is on no spa made) is the ultimate protection. With this you have the heater only on when the circ is getting voltage AND producing water pressure, and making the flow switch, and satisfying the hi limit switch. relay first to pressure switch, then to flow switch, then to hi limit, then to circ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countspacula Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Ok, I got the heater installed and started checking the pumps. The two main pumps and the blower seem to work fine. I noticed that when the 2-speed main pump is on, that the 'flow switch' closes and the heater circuit turns on. I can actually hear the breaker clicking. I guess my breakers/relays are okay. While the 2-speed motor is running (flow switch closed, heater circuit on) my voltage is 240vAC across the heater terminals (Red/Black 240vac, Red/Ground 120vac, Black/Ground 120vac). When it is off, I have a "FLO" error and the voltage is 40vAC across the heater terminals (Red/Black 40vac, Red/Ground 120vac, Black/Ground 0vac). Obviously, the circulation pump isn't kicking on. The voltage levels on the circulation pump are as follows: Heater Circuit on thanx to the 2-speed main pump: (Black/White 240vac, Black/Ground 120vac, White/Ground 120vac). Heater Circuit off: (Black/White 240vac, Black/Ground 120vac, White/Ground 120vac). Should the circulation pump always have 240vac across its leads? Does this indicate that my circ. pump is defective? It is only 1 year old. Here's a link to the model I purchased to replace the original. My tub is a 2000 Sundance Cameo, Controller 850LCD. Laing Model: E10-NHW-20 <a href="http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/6000-125sundancespascirculationpump240voltnewcirculationpumpfromsundanceusedonall240voltsystemsfrom1995-2008.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/6000-125su...m1995-2008.aspx</a> I'm still wondering why I had a meltdown on my last heater if the relays aren't fused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countspacula Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 with flow switch open, 0.000000 volts should be at the heater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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