Question For Nitro Please

[Matt87109]

Thanks for taking the time to write up your's/chem geek's protocol.

I've read through it and understand that you prefer to just keep your FC and CC in check with basic chemicals forgoing minerals or floaters. I understand that you add dichlor until CYA is correct and then switching to bleach followed by shocking with bleach, MPS, or dichlor (depending on your CYA levels).

This basic understanding leads me to a few questions if you don't mind:

1. Why would one not use a floater with chlorine tablets (sort of like a 3-part bromine). I assume the answer is that that chlorine dissolves too quickly and or floaters provide very poor FC control. I've noted that N2 does not offer a chlorine cart like spa frog offers bromine cart, so there has to be some reason I'm not finding.

2. It seems to me that a three-part bromine system, which spa frog appears to be, would be a great system compared to chlorine, but I know you feel otherwise. Can you point out what's missing in my consideration that causes me to find bromine to be the obvious choice? I have not been able to find any spa frog instructions, but from what I've read I'm betting they expect you to start off with balancing, sodium bromide, shock, and then plop in the floater w/ bromine cart. When I try to balance the 50 different variables in my head it seems like this would be superior to constantly checking chlorine. Maybe Bromine is too expensive? Maybe with a three part system after a shock you get high ppm bromine and cant use the tub for a while? That fact that oxidizers regenerate the bromine seems too good to be true so I'm wondering what the catch is.

I'm getting all of this I think, but I'm struggling with needing to check ppm before/after/daily with chlorine.

Thanks for your sharing your passion for perfect spa water.

Matt

[Nitro]

1. Why would one not use a floater with chlorine tablets (sort of like a 3-part bromine). I assume the answer is that that chlorine dissolves too quickly and or floaters provide very poor FC control. I've noted that N2 does not offer a chlorine cart like spa frog offers bromine cart, so there has to be some reason I'm not finding.

You don't want to use Chlorine tablets (Trichlor) in a floater, because they are very acidic and will lower your TA/pH.

2. It seems to me that a three-part bromine system, which spa frog appears to be, would be a great system compared to chlorine, but I know you feel otherwise. Can you point out what's missing in my consideration that causes me to find bromine to be the obvious choice? I have not been able to find any spa frog instructions, but from what I've read I'm betting they expect you to start off with balancing, sodium bromide, shock, and then plop in the floater w/ bromine cart. When I try to balance the 50 different variables in my head it seems like this would be superior to constantly checking chlorine. Maybe Bromine is too expensive? Maybe with a three part system after a shock you get high ppm bromine and cant use the tub for a while? That fact that oxidizers regenerate the bromine seems too good to be true so I'm wondering what the catch is.

I'm getting all of this I think, but I'm struggling with needing to check ppm before/after/daily with chlorine.

I don't think Chlorine is better than Bromine and vice-versa. They are just different. There are advantages and disadvantage to both. Here's analogy for you: If you would rather have a high performance sports car with a stick shift, you might prefer Chlorine. If you would rather have a luxury sedan, with an automatic transmission and cruse control, you may prefer Bromine. Which car is better? Neither, they're just different.

The main advantage to Bromine is it's more forgiving if you neglect it. Kind of like, set it and forget it (within reason). You can leave a Bromine tub about twice as long as a Chlorine tub without issues. This is important for people that go on vacation a lot, or don't use the tub very often. Also, Bromine and Ozonators play well together.

The main advantage to Chlorine is you have more control of how much sanitation is in the tub. Some people prefer to soak with very little Chlorine in the tub, then shock after they get out. If you have a hot tub party you can keep the Chlorine level higher. Believe it or not, it's not much trouble adding bleach to the tub after soaking. Chlorine is the cheapest, and easiest to get started. No Bromine banks, shocking etc.

Then there are smells and sensitivities. Some like the smell of Chlorine better, and vice-versa. Some are more sensitive to Bromine, and vice-versa. The only way to know is to try it.

If you will be using the tub often (>2 times per week), don't go out of town longer than a week often, may have hot tub party's or have just you and your partner, then I suggest starting with Chlorine. However, if you don't plan on using the tub much, go out of town often or you can't (won't) add Chlorine every few days, then I'd go with Bromine.

One more thing to keep in mind, once you start using Bromine, you can't switch to Chlorine without draining your tub. However, if you start with Chlorine and find it too much trouble, you can easily switch to Bromine. The only way to know for sure which one you like better is to try them both.

Hope that helps.

[Matt87109]

Thanks for taking the time to write up your's/chem geek's protocol.

I've read through it and understand that you prefer to just keep your FC and CC in check with basic chemicals forgoing minerals or floaters. I understand that you add dichlor until CYA is correct and then switching to bleach followed by shocking with bleach, MPS, or dichlor (depending on your CYA levels).

This basic understanding leads me to a few questions if you don't mind:

1. Why would one not use a floater with chlorine tablets (sort of like a 3-part bromine). I assume the answer is that that chlorine dissolves too quickly and or floaters provide very poor FC control. I've noted that N2 does not offer a chlorine cart like spa frog offers bromine cart, so there has to be some reason I'm not finding.

2. It seems to me that a three-part bromine system, which spa frog appears to be, would be a great system compared to chlorine, but I know you feel otherwise. Can you point out what's missing in my consideration that causes me to find bromine to be the obvious choice? I have not been able to find any spa frog instructions, but from what I've read I'm betting they expect you to start off with balancing, sodium bromide, shock, and then plop in the floater w/ bromine cart. When I try to balance the 50 different variables in my head it seems like this would be superior to constantly checking chlorine. Maybe Bromine is too expensive? Maybe with a three part system after a shock you get high ppm bromine and cant use the tub for a while? That fact that oxidizers regenerate the bromine seems too good to be true so I'm wondering what the catch is.

I'm getting all of this I think, but I'm struggling with needing to check ppm before/after/daily with chlorine.

Thanks for your sharing your passion for perfect spa water.

Matt

Thanks Nitro. I had not considered the more precise control of chlorine vs. bromine but it makes sense. I had read your transmission analogy a couple times but not in the context of understanding the bromine bank concept. That definitely makes sense now that I've read about bromine. I'm going to go with Chlorine and see how it pans out.

I guess if I wanted to try Nature 2 the only real difference is that I have a lower goal for FC and or I can let it slide a little longer? That or minerals are basically a waste of money is what I've heard proposed a few times as well.

Thanks again for putting an excellent summary out for us to read.

Matt

[Elbyron]

2. It seems to me that a three-part bromine system, which spa frog appears to be, would be a great system compared to chlorine, but I know you feel otherwise. Can you point out what's missing in my consideration that causes me to find bromine to be the obvious choice? I have not been able to find any spa frog instructions, but from what I've read I'm betting they expect you to start off with balancing, sodium bromide, shock, and then plop in the floater w/ bromine cart. When I try to balance the 50 different variables in my head it seems like this would be superior to constantly checking chlorine. Maybe Bromine is too expensive? Maybe with a three part system after a shock you get high ppm bromine and cant use the tub for a while? That fact that oxidizers regenerate the bromine seems too good to be true so I'm wondering what the catch is.

My 2 cents:

- Spa frog is expensive. My spa vendor tried to sell me on it (my tub is even equipped with the cartridge holder for it), but the cost was way higher than a basic 3-part bromine system.

- Both chlorine and bromine systems require balancing, but there's not really that many variables. Nitro's guide makes it pretty easy. With bromine, you probably don't have to test as often, but it's usually a good idea to check the pH and bromine levels before going in (I don't bother checking afterwards though). About once a week I do a full set of tests to make sure everything's still balanced.

- Bromine systems are usually somewhat more expensive than chlorine, but not a huge difference.

- After shocking you'll get a high reading for your bromine, and generally don't want to use it if it's over 10ppm (though I've done it without any problems). The same goes for shocking a chlorine system though. Either way you gotta wait before you go in - that's part of the reason people usually shock it after getting out.

- Oxidizers such as ozone, MPS, or chlorine (I use bleach) do regenerate the killing stuff (hypobromous acid), but the catch is that there must be a sufficient "bromide bank". In the 3-part system, maintaining this bank is done with the tablets in the floater. Most kinds of tablets also contain chlorine to oxidize the bromide, but you still need to shock.

[chem geek]

For bromine, there's also the interesting result that Hillbilly Hot Tub noted which is that using DBDMH tablets that are bromine only do not smell as much as the BCDMH tablets that have both chlorine and bromine.

[PaulR]

1. Why would one not use a floater with chlorine tablets (sort of like a 3-part bromine). I assume the answer is that that chlorine dissolves too quickly and or floaters provide very poor FC control. I've noted that N2 does not offer a chlorine cart like spa frog offers bromine cart, so there has to be some reason I'm not finding.

I've tried using trichlor in a spa. My experience is that trichlor dissolves much faster in the hot water than it does in a pool. Because the spa is so much smaller, a very little bit goes a long way. And, it's really hard to cut off the right size little chunk. There was one time I put in too much, and my next FC reading was in the mid-20's. Took days to bring it back down.

I suppose crushing a tab into powder would make the measuring easier, but really trichlor is too potent for a small volume like a spa. I've gone back to dichlor, and use the trichlor only in the pool when I go away (or need to raise CYA); I figure my bucket of tabs is now a lifetime supply.

--paulr

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

For bromine, there's also the interesting result that Hillbilly Hot Tub noted which is that using DBDMH tablets that are bromine only do not smell as much as the BCDMH tablets that have both chlorine and bromine.

It also produces a large bromide bank, so after a couple of months I have to take the feeder out for awile because when I shock the levels go sky high. I reduce how much MPS is used while the feeder is out, but do it more often, thus controlling the level. After a couple of weeks I will have to use more MPS each time to th point I have to put the feeder back in for a week. After that we are due for a water change anyway.

[Matt87109]

Thanks everybody..... that all makes sense.

Does all "sodium dichlor......" have CYA? Paul you mentioned you use trichlor when you need to raise CYA, but I think dichlor has it as well. Maybe tri has more?

I'm going to start off the the dichlor/bleach/no minerals method. It sounds challenging to learn as far as controlling ppm accurately. I'll just look at it like a game and try to have fun.

Now that I've read a bit about this I dread to think about all those times I went into the gym's hot tub. I wonder if all the chlorine smell was combined chlorine and really how much of it was FC as person after person got in..... eiiick! I bet there are a lot of people that indicate they can't tolerate chlorine in a spa that are grossly mistaken. I don't really know for sure but I'll experiment first hand. I never really had any reactions before other than some itching from time to time, but that might of just been bacteria.....Niiiiiccce.

Thanks for all the info.

[chem geek]

Yes, "sodium dichlor..." is Dichlor and when dissolved in water releases CYA. It has more CYA for the same chlorine amount as Trichlor. The basic chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product and of water volume are as follows:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases CYA by 6 ppm.

For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.

For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm.

In the gym spa, odds are they didn't use any CYA and used straight chlorine (chlorinating liquid). If they used sufficient chlorine, then you probably smelled a combination of that chlorine which would outgas quickly without CYA and probably monochloramine (Combined Chlorine, CC) from your sweat/urine combined with chlorine. On the other hand, if they didn't use enough chlorine, then there could have been a lot of monochloramine in that tub which would have smelled even worse.

[Matt87109]

I just got back from the store and am a little confused. They have "spa" products and "pool" products. Does it really matter? The only product label I could find that had 99% "Sodium Dichlor-xxxxxxxxxxxx". Was pool shock. There was another pool shock that have 15% "Sodium Dichlor-xxxxxxxxxxxx". Do I just need to read in between the lines and get the chemical I need? I don't require that I'm buying the cheapest stuff, but I don't want to throw away dollars on marketing. What specific products do you guys use and how do you procure them? ThAnKs!

TA increaser = baking soda

CH increases = Calcium Chloride in nitro's write, but the store has Calcium Carbonate (I think the carbonate would increase TA too)

Sanitizer = Dichlor (which one?) / Bleach (uncented 6% clorox)

Sorry I need it spelled out to the Nth degree.