Chlorine Free

[rum]

I'm new to this site, my question is if anybody has installed this system, and how do they like it? I installed the system two weeks ago, but can not try it until mid-May because where I live in NJ. Please let me know, pros or cons about this subject! Thanks

[chem geek]

I'm new to this site, my question is if anybody has installed this system, and how do they like it? I installed the system two weeks ago, but can not try it until mid-May because where I live in NJ. Please let me know, pros or cons about this subject! Thanks

This is an ionization system using copper and/or silver ions. These do not kill bacteria nor inactivate viruses quickly enough to prevent person-to-person transmission and therefore is not allowed to be used in commercial/public pools without an EPA-approved sanitizer. There are only three such sanitizers approved for pool use: chlorine, bromine and Baqua/biguanide/PHMB. In spas at high temperatures, silver ions (from Nature2) plus non-chlorine shock (MPS) is also approved.

It's a spectrum of risk and a residential pool is at less risk than a commercial/public pool unless you have people over who swim and who are sick. By themselves, the metal ions should prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth for most bacteria.

The main con, other than the higher risk of transmission of a pathogen, is staining from the metal ions, especially if the pH rises.

[rum]

I'm new to this site, my question is if anybody has installed this system, and how do they like it? I installed the system two weeks ago, but can not try it until mid-May because where I live in NJ. Please let me know, pros or cons about this subject! Thanks

This is an ionization system using copper and/or silver ions. These do not kill bacteria nor inactivate viruses quickly enough to prevent person-to-person transmission and therefore is not allowed to be used in commercial/public pools without an EPA-approved sanitizer. There are only three such sanitizers approved for pool use: chlorine, bromine and Baqua/biguanide/PHMB. In spas at high temperatures, silver ions (from Nature2) plus non-chlorine shock (MPS) is also approved.

It's a spectrum of risk and a residential pool is at less risk than a commercial/public pool unless you have people over who swim and who are sick. By themselves, the metal ions should prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth for most bacteria.

The main con, other than the higher risk of transmission of a pathogen, is staining from the metal ions, especially if the pH rises.

The system also has a ozone/ultra violet injector after the filter.

[chem geek]

The system also has a ozone/ultra violet injector after the filter.

That doesn't change anything. Neither ozone nor UV provide any residual disinfection in the bulk pool water. So only water that goes through multiple turnovers will get some additional disinfection, but it's very slow because one turnover only touches about 63% of the water, one turnover of water is usually not faster than 3 hours, and it takes 4.6 turnovers of water for 99% to go through the filtration and ozone/UV systems. Bacteria double in population every 15-60 minutes. Also, bacteria in biofilms stuck to pool surfaces don't get circulated at all. One has to have a residual disinfectant and that is the purpose of the metal ions, but they don't kill quickly enough to prevent person-to-person transmission to the degree desired by commercial/public pools (where one person can infect dozens or even hundreds).

[rum]

The system also has a ozone/ultra violet injector after the filter.

That doesn't change anything. Neither ozone nor UV provide any residual disinfection in the bulk pool water. So only water that goes through multiple turnovers will get some additional disinfection, but it's very slow because one turnover only touches about 63% of the water, one turnover of water is usually not faster than 3 hours, and it takes 4.6 turnovers of water for 99% to go through the filtration and ozone/UV systems. Bacteria double in population every 15-60 minutes. Also, bacteria in biofilms stuck to pool surfaces don't get circulated at all. One has to have a residual disinfectant and that is the purpose of the metal ions, but they don't kill quickly enough to prevent person-to-person transmission to the degree desired by commercial/public pools (where one person can infect dozens or even hundreds).

Maybe thats why they tell you to shock the pool once aweek with a quart of bleach, or chlorine!

[chem geek]

Maybe thats why they tell you to shock the pool once aweek with a quart of bleach, or chlorine!

Again, that doesn't change anything during the rest of the week. Shocking with chlorine once a week would mostly just oxidize some additional chemicals that perhaps ozone didn't deal with and it would kill pathogens not inhibited by the metal ions, assuming biofilms weren't formed. However, unless the shock level were rather high, the chlorine would likely be gone in a couple of days (if exposed to direct sunlight or if it got used up oxidizing bather waste).

And, of course, if you are shocking with chlorine once a week you don't really have a chlorine-free pool, at least part of the time.

During the rest of the week when the chlorine was zero, the risk of person-to-person transmission is greater.

Again, it's not a terribly unsafe system for residential pools, especially compared to not having metal ions in the pool at all, and it's a spectrum of risk. Just don't use the system thinking you are getting the same level of disinfection as using one of the three EPA-approved sanitizers that provide a residual in the bulk pool water at all times: chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB.

[rum]

Maybe thats why they tell you to shock the pool once aweek with a quart of bleach, or chlorine!

Again, that doesn't change anything during the rest of the week. Shocking with chlorine once a week would mostly just oxidize some additional chemicals that perhaps ozone didn't deal with and it would kill pathogens not inhibited by the metal ions, assuming biofilms weren't formed. However, unless the shock level were rather high, the chlorine would likely be gone in a couple of days (if exposed to direct sunlight or if it got used up oxidizing bather waste).

And, of course, if you are shocking with chlorine once a week you don't really have a chlorine-free pool, at least part of the time.

During the rest of the week when the chlorine was zero, the risk of person-to-person transmission is greater.

Again, it's not a terribly unsafe system for residential pools, especially compared to not having metal ions in the pool at all, and it's a spectrum of risk. Just don't use the system thinking you are getting the same level of disinfection as using one of the three EPA-approved sanitizers that provide a residual in the bulk pool water at all times: chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB.

Thanks for your info, I will let you know how its working for me, in about 6 weeks, when I open my pool. I also see that Disney World use their system.

[chem geek]

This list on their site lists a lot of pools with their system, but all such commercial or public pools MUST have a residual of an EPA approved sanitizer at all times (not just shocking), most likely chlorine in these cases, or else they are in violation of state or county regulations that ALL require the use of an EPA-approved sanitizer meeting the criteria of DIS/TSS-12. In other words, the proper use of Superior Aqua, or any other supplemental system including ozone and UV, in a commercial or public pool environment is with at least some chlorine (or equivalent) in the pool at all times. This link is a typical regulation where chlorine or bromine or "equally effective disinfectants registered with the United States Environmental Protection Agency as an approved disinfectant" may be used as a substitute. The only other EPA-approved disinfectant (not to be confused with "pesticide" which is not as stringent nor specific to pools) is Baqua/biguanide/PHMB (for spas, at high temperatures, Nature2 with MPS is apparently also approved).

This link is an example of the consequences of claiming to be a disinfectant (as opposed to simply using a chemical that is registered pesticide).

This link is a response from the EPA referring to Zodiac Pool Care (makers of Nature2) where the Zodiac Nature product that uses silver and copper was claiming to kill bacteria and the EPA keeps telling them over and over again that their product can only claim the product is effective when used with a registered chlorine product. This is specifically in regard to DIS/TSS-12. Read the document's "VI. Conclusions and Recommendations" section carefully. Silver and copper alone do not kill bacteria quickly enough to be used alone as a swimming pool disinfectant. The only allowed claim is an an algaecide.

As shown here, Superior Aqua Enterprises is not the primary registrant of any pesticide product. This is most likely because they are piggy-backing on the general registration for copper and silver metal ions, but such registration is ONLY as a pesticide and NOT as a swimming pool disinfectant (DIS/TSS-12).

Again, the risk is lower in a residential pool, but in a commercial/public pool an EPA-approved sanitizer is always present (to be legal) though additional supplemental systems are optionally used including metal ions, ozone and UV.

[rum]

This list on their site lists a lot of pools with their system, but all such commercial or public pools MUST have a residual of an EPA approved sanitizer at all times (not just shocking), most likely chlorine in these cases, or else they are in violation of state or county regulations that ALL require the use of an EPA-approved sanitizer meeting the criteria of DIS/TSS-12. In other words, the proper use of Superior Aqua, or any other supplemental system including ozone and UV, in a commercial or public pool environment is with at least some chlorine (or equivalent) in the pool at all times. This link is a typical regulation where chlorine or bromine or "equally effective disinfectants registered with the United States Environmental Protection Agency as an approved disinfectant" may be used as a substitute. The only other EPA-approved disinfectant (not to be confused with "pesticide" which is not as stringent nor specific to pools) is Baqua/biguanide/PHMB (for spas, at high temperatures, Nature2 with MPS is apparently also approved).

This link is an example of the consequences of claiming to be a disinfectant (as opposed to simply using a chemical that is registered pesticide).

This link is a response from the EPA referring to Zodiac Pool Care (makers of Nature2) where the Zodiac Nature product that uses silver and copper was claiming to kill bacteria and the EPA keeps telling them over and over again that their product can only claim the product is effective when used with a registered chlorine product. This is specifically in regard to DIS/TSS-12. Read the document's "VI. Conclusions and Recommendations" section carefully. Silver and copper alone do not kill bacteria quickly enough to be used alone as a swimming pool disinfectant. The only allowed claim is an an algaecide.

As shown here, Superior Aqua Enterprises is not the primary registrant of any pesticide product. This is most likely because they are piggy-backing on the general registration for copper and silver metal ions, but such registration is ONLY as a pesticide and NOT as a swimming pool disinfectant (DIS/TSS-12).

Again, the risk is lower in a residential pool, but in a commercial/public pool an EPA-approved sanitizer is always present (to be legal) though additional supplemental systems are optionally used including metal ions, ozone and UV.

Thank You for all your help, and knowledge!

[chem geek]

By the way, it's not just the U.S. that doesn't allow copper/silver metal ion systems to be used in commercial/public pools or spas without a stronger sanitizer (e.g. chlorine), but this link shows that Australia follows similar strict guidelines.

[rum]

By the way, it's not just the U.S. that doesn't allow copper/silver metal ion systems to be used in commercial/public pools or spas without a stronger sanitizer (e.g. chlorine), but this link shows that Australia follows similar strict guidelines.

So I guess I will still need to put a 3 in. chlorine puck into the skimmer?

[chem geek]

By the way, it's not just the U.S. that doesn't allow copper/silver metal ion systems to be used in commercial/public pools or spas without a stronger sanitizer (e.g. chlorine), but this link shows that Australia follows similar strict guidelines.

So I guess I will still need to put a 3 in. chlorine puck into the skimmer?

Like I said, it's a spectrum of risk and in a residential pool the risk is lower so it's really up to you. I wasn't trying to scare you; I just wanted you to know that any claims of the system being as sanitary as one with chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB were simply untrue.

With the metal ions in the pool, and with an ozonator presumably oxidizing bather waste, you shouldn't need very much chlorine in the pool and could probably have it at 1-2 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) with 80 ppm Cyanuric Acid (CYA). The actual amount of active disinfecting/oxidizing chlorine (hypochlorous acid) is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio. The 1-2 ppm FC with 80 ppm CYA is technically equivalent to 0.01 to 0.02 ppm FC with no CYA -- a very low amount. The only reason you can get away with such a low amount of chlorine is that the copper ions will be preventing algae growth.

Since the chlorine usage should be low (though an ozonator can sometimes actually increase chlorine usage since ozone can oxidize chlorine itself) you could use a Trichlor puck in a floating feeder on a low setting. You never put regular Trichlor pucks in the skimmer since they are highly acidic, but there are special ones that only dissolve when there is water flow -- specifically, BioGuard (Silk) Smart Sticks. Note, however, that with any Trichlor, for every 10 ppm FC it also increases CYA by 6 ppm. So you might want to start out with a lower CYA depending on how much dilution of water you have. If you have a smaller pool and a sand filter you backwash regularly or have regular rain overflow, then your water will get diluted to help keep the CYA from building up. If you have a larger pool or a cartridge filter and no rain overflow, then the CYA can build up quickly and you'll have to periodically manually dilute the water through partial drain/refill. Since you've got copper ions to prevent algae growth, your CYA could climb a bit without causing problems.

If you were to use the Superior Aqua system and shock with chlorinating liquid or 6% unscented bleach weekly instead of maintaining chlorine as described above, then that is pretty good for a residential pool. As I had said before, it doesn't strongly prevent person-to-person transmission of pathogens when the chlorine is zero, but that is mostly a risk in a commercial/public pool where one infected individual can make dozens or more people sick. I just want you to be well-informed so you can make your own choice.

Richard

[AquaclearNZ]

By the way, it's not just the U.S. that doesn't allow copper/silver metal ion systems to be used in commercial/public pools or spas without a stronger sanitizer (e.g. chlorine), but this link shows that Australia follows similar strict guidelines.

Funny you should mention Zodiacs US attempted registration - that was the same product that brought about the APMVAs press releases on ionisers a few years back