What Is Important Is Spa Shopping To Consumers

[Chas]

No, nothing was missing from my post. I was merely pointing out that it seems desirable to capture some of the waste heat from the motors. I wasn't discussing the effects of poor insulation.

Of course, you are correct - poor insulation would negate any gains you'd get in capturing the waste heat from the motors. Poor insulation will also require the heater to turn on more frequently. This is why having good insulation is of paramount importance.

I agree - for what its worth.

Here is some more practical info: I have a HotSpring Grandee in my yard. It is a 500 gallon FF tub. It has a sub panel which allows me to power the spa up with the heat locked out, which is the way I always do it after a water change. More than once I have forgotten to go back and power up the heat. I live in a good climate - average temp of 72 degrees year 'round. The spa will reach 98 degrees in about two days with nothing but the 75 watt circ pump running. Vermonter - a regular poster on boards like this one and HS Grandee owner - lives in a less-ideal climate for this sort of adventure. He has that white stuff that falls from the sky. He did the same 'test' and his tub took three days to do the same thing with ambient temps near freezing.

So don't worry about recycling heat into the water - at least one brand of FF tub does it well.

And the circ pump isn't the only pump in a HS which transfers heat - the jets pumps have shrouds on the motors. That directs some of the hot air into the air manifold system so that air mixing with the water in the jet venturis is heated. This will cause my spa to climb in temp a degree or two if I run the jets on full for a couple of hours on a warm day. I can modulate that effect by turning off the air to any jets I am not sitting in front of, and the simple fact is that I don't run my jets for hours at a time anyway. I don't see any temp change most of the time - but I also note that my heater doesn't kick in for most uses either. In my spa I can feel the hot water returning from the heater at a fitting on the bottom and it is very easy to tell when the heater has kicked in or out.

I like your thinking - it is a good idea to recapture as much of that waste heat as possible. I only post this to say that HS seems to not only agree, but they have come up with what I consider to be a good way to do so.

[wesj53]

And Chas - at the risk of inciting Roger to pick up a weapon - the ARC study showed HS to be the FF brand (or at least model) that tested the best in heat retention/energy usage. So I think Altazi and I would both agree with you that proper, sufficent, and quality insulation is the key to an efficient unit. If we can agree that these 2 mfgs are very close on this subject, then we both can agree they are quality units. A consumer must then make his decision based on other aspects such as seating design, comfort of unit. features desired and offered, etc. In my case, I also valued the "open design of Arctic" for ease of repair in case of a leak. And if we are fair, I think that favors the open design chamber vs FF. Also a factor was my opinion that in case of power outages, the Heatlock system may offer protection for a longer period of time than a FF product. Just my thoughts as a non-engineer. I will defer to Altazi to make the technical arguments from an engineering standpoint and to you industry folks from positions of experience. Always an interesting chat, however!

[Glenn]

I recorded 122 degrees right next to the motor during filtration after 30 minutes of running. On the opposite side of the cabinet I recorded 100 degrees in outside ambients above 60 and a slow and steady increase to about 105 untill 87 degrees the highest I tested, after a full filter cycle. Now lets talk about decreasing temperatures. I barely got 105 18 inches from the motor when the outside ambient was 10 above, and I have a whole lot of data on temperatures inbetween and lower but you get the idea. Now how much of this "Heat" goes into the water, IMO very little if any, and I would classify it more as "warmth" to keep the cabinet temp as high as the water to reduce heat loss not increase effieciency. And this is only during motor run time which is about 20 percent of the day. The other 80 percent of the day the effieciency is, well suspect after as long as it takes for air infiltration to increase.

As someone stated Arctic is as close as I have seen to getting it right but it is far from perfect and all it does for them in the TP quest to get it right is get them even with the FF style of insulation. So to say TP is better in cold climates is flat out wrong.

And if someone brings up that damn ARC study again I will shoot myself!!!!

Hey Roger did you read that Arctic study??

Bang.....

[Altazi]

I agree - for what its worth.

Here is some more practical info: I have a HotSpring Grandee in my yard. It is a 500 gallon FF tub. It has a sub panel which allows me to power the spa up with the heat locked out, which is the way I always do it after a water change. More than once I have forgotten to go back and power up the heat. I live in a good climate - average temp of 72 degrees year 'round. The spa will reach 98 degrees in about two days with nothing but the 75 watt circ pump running. Vermonter - a regular poster on boards like this one and HS Grandee owner - lives in a less-ideal climate for this sort of adventure. He has that white stuff that falls from the sky. He did the same 'test' and his tub took three days to do the same thing with ambient temps near freezing.

So don't worry about recycling heat into the water - at least one brand of FF tub does it well.

And the circ pump isn't the only pump in a HS which transfers heat - the jets pumps have shrouds on the motors. That directs some of the hot air into the air manifold system so that air mixing with the water in the jet venturis is heated. This will cause my spa to climb in temp a degree or two if I run the jets on full for a couple of hours on a warm day. I can modulate that effect by turning off the air to any jets I am not sitting in front of, and the simple fact is that I don't run my jets for hours at a time anyway. I don't see any temp change most of the time - but I also note that my heater doesn't kick in for most uses either. In my spa I can feel the hot water returning from the heater at a fitting on the bottom and it is very easy to tell when the heater has kicked in or out.

I like your thinking - it is a good idea to recapture as much of that waste heat as possible. I only post this to say that HS seems to not only agree, but they have come up with what I consider to be a good way to do so.

I certainly didn't want to turn this into the same old "TP vs. FF" debate. I know that the Arctic spas design tries to capture the motor heat, as do some of the FF tubs. Kudos to them all!

I have two additional concerns regarding my selection of a spa - freeze protection and water maintenance. My spa will be located at a vacation home, 180 miles from my primary residence. The vacation home is located in Central Oregon, where the weather can include several days in a row below freezing, and up to three feet of accumulated snow. There are times when we don't go to the vacation home for several weeks in a row. I am concerned about power outages and GFCI breaker trips. The power can be out for a couple of days maximum, but if the GFCI breaker trips when I am not there, it could be weeks before I would be back to check on it. Even the best-insulated FF spa could be frozen solid under these conditions. I do not want a portable skating rink!

It does seem that, in the event of a power loss of a few days, the equipment area of a FF spa could be subject to quicker freezing than an Arctic tub. I haven't looked at many spas yet, but the FF spa's equipment area seemed to be insulated from the tub shell, and also seemed to have little in the way of insulation to the outside. I'd like a spa that will last as long as possible in freezing conditions - this gives me more time to arrange to have someone come out to check on things - or go there myself. I am trying to come up with a cost-effective way to monitor the spa over the Internet - at least to know if the power is on and the temperature is OK. There is the problem of firewalls and DHCP - no static IP address.

I expect that I will need to engage the services of a spa maintenance company to check the water chemistry while we are away. I would therefore like to select a spa that does better at going from week to week with less "fiddling" with the water - if there is such a thing. I have heard that the Marquis tubs do a good job at this, and look forward to checking them out in person.

Most of the posters on this forum seem to be discussing the spas at their primary residences, and so do not need to be quite as concerned about these two issues as much as I do.

Regards,

Altazi

[Roger]

I certainly didn't want to turn this into the same old "TP vs. FF" debate. I know that the Arctic spas design tries to capture the motor heat, as do some of the FF tubs. Kudos to them all!

I have two additional concerns regarding my selection of a spa - freeze protection and water maintenance. My spa will be located at a vacation home, 180 miles from my primary residence. The vacation home is located in Central Oregon, where the weather can include several days in a row below freezing, and up to three feet of accumulated snow. There are times when we don't go to the vacation home for several weeks in a row. I am concerned about power outages and GFCI breaker trips. The power can be out for a couple of days maximum, but if the GFCI breaker trips when I am not there, it could be weeks before I would be back to check on it. Even the best-insulated FF spa could be frozen solid under these conditions. I do not want a portable skating rink!

It does seem that, in the event of a power loss of a few days, the equipment area of a FF spa could be subject to quicker freezing than an Arctic tub. I haven't looked at many spas yet, but the FF spa's equipment area seemed to be insulated from the tub shell, and also seemed to have little in the way of insulation to the outside. I'd like a spa that will last as long as possible in freezing conditions - this gives me more time to arrange to have someone come out to check on things - or go there myself. I am trying to come up with a cost-effective way to monitor the spa over the Internet - at least to know if the power is on and the temperature is OK. There is the problem of firewalls and DHCP - no static IP address.

I expect that I will need to engage the services of a spa maintenance company to check the water chemistry while we are away. I would therefore like to select a spa that does better at going from week to week with less "fiddling" with the water - if there is such a thing. I have heard that the Marquis tubs do a good job at this, and look forward to checking them out in person.

Most of the posters on this forum seem to be discussing the spas at their primary residences, and so do not need to be quite as concerned about these two issues as much as I do.

Regards,

Altazi

Al, I think your biggest concern should be who is going to monitor your tub while you are away. Not which style of insulation you should get. If your going to be away from a Hot Tub in below freezing temps for more than a few days, it should be monitored by someone no matter what insulation method it employs. At 40 during the day and 25-30 at night it may make a week or so (no matter which insulation method.) At -10 to 10 above it won't (no matter what the insulation method). So you primary concern should be hiring a guy like me (I do it for several people) to balance and sanitize your water and monitor your tub to protect it from freezing. I have had FF tubs go for over a week in sub zero temps with no damage. I have had FF tubs go for a couple days and have damage (easily fixed, in the equipment bay) I have seen TP style tubs go for only days and I have seen them go also for over a week in sub zero. Theres alot of variables and with out monitoring it's a crap shoot, but one thing remains constant. Your tub should be checked every other day or so for function...period. A trouble light or small heater can prolong freeze up indefienetly while waiting for repair. But if no one knows it needs repair, one can't be facilitated.

[wesj53]

Roger, I appreciate that honest response. Our family also has a summer home in northern WI where temps get even more extreme in winter than in OR where Al's property is located. About 2 years ago, my brothers and I purchased a Home Depot "special" (Image, now Keys) very basic spa. It was an impulse purchase as we were picking up supplies one day and at a time I knew absolutely nothing about hot tubs.

During the first 2 winters, we have drained the tub and winterized the lines. To date, we have no leaks but I have been told that doing this will encourage the seals of the jets to wear out. Then they will have to be replaced. Fortunately, the unit is a TP style system so getting to the jets should not be a major hassle in having to tear out and replace foam. We are 8 miles to the closest town (with a spa supply store) but don't have a neighbor close by who could check on our unit if filled. What are your thoughts about draining for winter and refilling in spring vs. keeping the tub filled and run at the lowest possible temp setting?

[Chas]

When we finally build on our lot up in the mountains - just North of the 'Day Fire' area - I will run an extra circuit to the tub. I will put a 100 watt bulb in the motor compartment on a thermostat. If the temp in that compartment reaches 34 or so, the bulb will come on. That will only help if there is power to the house, of course, but in the event the spa shuts off during a cold spell I will not have to worry about it.

As I may have mentioned, HS tubs have the heat and the rest of the system on separate GFI breakers, so the chance of a GFI problem is minimized. In fact, if the heater trips the GFI, the circ pump will keep running and that alone can keep the tub in the nineties with ease.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

To date, we have no leaks but I have been told that doing this will encourage the seals of the jets to wear out. Then they will have to be replaced. Fortunately, the unit is a TP style system so getting to the jets should not be a major hassle in having to tear out and replace foam.

I'm not sure whose got your ear to give you this gloom and doom expectation of leaks. Who told you that about the jets? You don't have to worry about any seals in your jets and as far as leaks in general, if it is a well made spa that shouldn't be a problem either. If you prefer TP, great, but I always cringe when people go in that direction because of fears of leaks. When you talk about the major FF spas (Sundance, Hot Spring, Marquis, D1, Caldera, etc.) you very rarely see the kind of leaks you're talking about and you know you're getting a well insulated spa. TP can be well insulated too but not by all (Arctic being a good TP choice) so you have to be very choosy there IMO. The equipment compartment where the pumps and heaters are is the place most apt to see a leak and even then it shouldn't happen very often but if you want to worry about where to leave access, I'd advice people to not foam the equipment compartment .

[Altazi]

Al, I think your biggest concern should be who is going to monitor your tub while you are away. Not which style of insulation you should get. If your going to be away from a Hot Tub in below freezing temps for more than a few days, it should be monitored by someone no matter what insulation method it employs. At 40 during the day and 25-30 at night it may make a week or so (no matter which insulation method.) At -10 to 10 above it won't (no matter what the insulation method). So you primary concern should be hiring a guy like me (I do it for several people) to balance and sanitize your water and monitor your tub to protect it from freezing. I have had FF tubs go for over a week in sub zero temps with no damage. I have had FF tubs go for a couple days and have damage (easily fixed, in the equipment bay) I have seen TP style tubs go for only days and I have seen them go also for over a week in sub zero. Theres alot of variables and with out monitoring it's a crap shoot, but one thing remains constant. Your tub should be checked every other day or so for function...period. A trouble light or small heater can prolong freeze up indefienetly while waiting for repair. But if no one knows it needs repair, one can't be facilitated.

Hi Roger,

I am pretty much planning on engaging the services of a maintenance company. Based on your experience doing spa maintenance for others, do you believe that some spas are better at going unmonitored for longer periods than others? Have you seen any spas that seem more prone to various problems than other?

Regards,

Altazi

[Roger]

Hi Roger,

I am pretty much planning on engaging the services of a maintenance company. Based on your experience doing spa maintenance for others, do you believe that some spas are better at going unmonitored for longer periods than others? Have you seen any spas that seem more prone to various problems than other?

Regards,

Altazi

Al.....I'm not going to bad mouth any brands regarding which ones are worse than others. I will however say if your going to buy a value brand at a value price your chances are increased in having problems than if you spend more on a quality name brand. I'm not saying there aren't any good value brands out there because there are. But if a value tub is what your after look for a company that has been building them a long time and one that uses components that are made by the top component manufacturers, and the things that the big boys use to build there tubs (fiberglass backed acrylic,2x4 treated framework) and so on.

Look for lip over construction and I like a good clean base preferable ABS or fiberglass. Combined with simple easy to replace components, a value brand for half the money can be exactly that, a good value. As far as unmonitored, and I'm not trying to steer you to any brand but, a small 75-100 watt 24/7 circ pump doing the heating and filtering makes sence as a good choice, it draws very little power (lowering your big power draw during startup) and IMO reducing your chance for a relay or GFCI problem. But they need to be changed, maybe even before they quit to insure quiet dependable operation when your not there. If theres a consistant problem with power outages where your cabin is, again, independent monitoring is a must. I also would go for a good cover, an upgrade to ensure a good seal and insulation factor on the top where the biggest heat loss is going to be. I may even consider an enclosure at a cabin to help even more, just eliminating wind will increase power down longevity.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that a good Thermal Pane style tub I think will last longer in a power down situation but, if it last for a day or two longer than a good Full Foam style, if your not there for either of those couple days longer one lasts over the other it won't matter. The leak thing, as mentioned by others, it's nothing more than a scare tactic. 95 percent or even closer to 98 percent of all the repairs I do are in the equipment area, and I have not done a repair in the foam since March and that was the only one in 2006. All the rest this year have been in the equipment area and I am at about 75-100 repairs this year (remember I do it part time) At the risk of POing someone I'm going to say I am married to a few Calspas that are not that old and seem to develop a leak every other month or so. I do however think they are improving there product, and a couple of these customers have terrible water care.

Sorry Al, I didn't really help you much but you have more to ponder. They don't make the perfect tub IMO

Hey Wes....where in Northern WS? Or did I ask you that?

Chas....great idea. thermostaticly controlled light bulb. I am kinda experimenting with a light bulb to lower heater use and pump running between filter cycles in the extreme cold here in Northern Minnesota in the winter. 75 watt Rough service light bulb...cost 90 cents...cost to operate 10 cents a day. 200 dollar heater....300 dollar pump...cost to operate 1-1.50 a day....hmmmmm

[wesj53]

I'm not sure whose got your ear to give you this gloom and doom expectation of leaks. Who told you that about the jets? You don't have to worry about any seals in your jets and as far as leaks in general, if it is a well made spa that shouldn't be a problem either. If you prefer TP, great, but I always cringe when people go in that direction because of fears of leaks. When you talk about the major FF spas (Sundance, Hot Spring, Marquis, D1, Caldera, etc.) you very rarely see the kind of leaks you're talking about and you know you're getting a well insulated spa. TP can be well insulated too but not by all (Arctic being a good TP choice) so you have to be very choosy there IMO. The equipment compartment where the pumps and heaters are is the place most apt to see a leak and even then it shouldn't happen very often but if you want to worry about where to leave access, I'd advice people to not foam the equipment compartment .

Hey spatech, you may have misread my post as it has NOTHING to do with TP vs FF. I just wanted to know from any of you more expert industry folks whether draining a tub before winter and then refilling in spring does any damage to the unit or speeds up the degradation of the tub. In other words, is there any downside to draining completely if the tub will not be used for the next 6 months.

And Roger, the tub is located 7 miles west of Rhinelander, WI in our little slice of heaven.

[Altazi]

Al.....I'm not going to bad mouth any brands regarding which ones are worse than others. I will however say if your going to buy a value brand at a value price your chances are increased in having problems than if you spend more on a quality name brand. I'm not saying there aren't any good value brands out there because there are. But if a value tub is what your after look for a company that has been building them a long time and one that uses components that are made by the top component manufacturers, and the things that the big boys use to build there tubs (fiberglass backed acrylic,2x4 treated framework) and so on.

Look for lip over construction and I like a good clean base preferable ABS or fiberglass. Combined with simple easy to replace components, a value brand for half the money can be exactly that, a good value. As far as unmonitored, and I'm not trying to steer you to any brand but, a small 75-100 watt 24/7 circ pump doing the heating and filtering makes sence as a good choice, it draws very little power (lowering your big power draw during startup) and IMO reducing your chance for a relay or GFCI problem. But they need to be changed, maybe even before they quit to insure quiet dependable operation when your not there. If theres a consistant problem with power outages where your cabin is, again, independent monitoring is a must. I also would go for a good cover, an upgrade to ensure a good seal and insulation factor on the top where the biggest heat loss is going to be. I may even consider an enclosure at a cabin to help even more, just eliminating wind will increase power down longevity.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that a good Thermal Pane style tub I think will last longer in a power down situation but, if it last for a day or two longer than a good Full Foam style, if your not there for either of those couple days longer one lasts over the other it won't matter. The leak thing, as mentioned by others, it's nothing more than a scare tactic. 95 percent or even closer to 98 percent of all the repairs I do are in the equipment area, and I have not done a repair in the foam since March and that was the only one in 2006. All the rest this year have been in the equipment area and I am at about 75-100 repairs this year (remember I do it part time) At the risk of POing someone I'm going to say I am married to a few Calspas that are not that old and seem to develop a leak every other month or so. I do however think they are improving there product, and a couple of these customers have terrible water care.

Sorry Al, I didn't really help you much but you have more to ponder. They don't make the perfect tub IMO

Hey Wes....where in Northern WS? Or did I ask you that?

Chas....great idea. thermostaticly controlled light bulb. I am kinda experimenting with a light bulb to lower heater use and pump running between filter cycles in the extreme cold here in Northern Minnesota in the winter. 75 watt Rough service light bulb...cost 90 cents...cost to operate 10 cents a day. 200 dollar heater....300 dollar pump...cost to operate 1-1.50 a day....hmmmmm

Thanks for the heap of information, Roger. There IS quite a bit to ponder before selecting a spa. I am not looking for a "value" brand; I expect to stay with the top brands, purchased from a local dealer with whom I feel comfortable.

I wouldn't expect you to bad-mouth anyones products, but there's certainly nothing wrong in calling it as you see it - based on your experiences as a part-time maintenance tech. On the repairs that you do - what kind of problems do you see the most? Are they customer-caused? Normal wear-and-tear?

I have heard that the little circulation pumps do need to be replaced - what is the failure mode? Do you get any warning - weird sounds or something - or does it just stop working altogether? How do you know when it dies?

I imagine that all spas will need servicing at some point - which spas do you prefer to work on? Which ones do you find harder to service?

The thermostatically-controlled light bulb in the equipment bay sounds like a good idea. Possibly a small fan to improve air circulation, too. This would have to be on a separate circuit from the spa, of course.

Once I finally get my spa, I will perform a number of experiments with it - rate of temperature fall on removal of power, rate of temperature rise upon heating, pump run, etc. I can just see it: "No, you can't use the spa for a few days, I'm running an experiment!" Yeah, that would go over like a ton of bricks.

Regards,

Altazi

[Chas]

I have heard that the little circulation pumps do need to be replaced - what is the failure mode? Do you get any warning - weird sounds or something - or does it just stop working altogether? How do you know when it dies?

I have been in pool and spa service and repair for over two decades - I hope you don't mind if I jump in.

The circ pumps I am most familiar with should go five to seven years. If you allow the pH and TA to climb regularly, you will kill it prematurely. I have customers who have had the same pump for ten years, and customers who have replaced one under the five year warranty and then a second one two years later. When I take it out and open it up, it is full of calcium - signs of high pH and TA.

If you want to assure trouble-free operation, replace the circ pump every five years and watch the pH/TA closely. The pump will cost you about $150 and you could easily install it yourself. I do it without draining the spa in about fifteen minutes start to finish.

[Roger]

Thanks for the heap of information, Roger. There IS quite a bit to ponder before selecting a spa. I am not looking for a "value" brand; I expect to stay with the top brands, purchased from a local dealer with whom I feel comfortable.

I wouldn't expect you to bad-mouth anyones products, but there's certainly nothing wrong in calling it as you see it - based on your experiences as a part-time maintenance tech. On the repairs that you do - what kind of problems do you see the most? Are they customer-caused? Normal wear-and-tear?

I have heard that the little circulation pumps do need to be replaced - what is the failure mode? Do you get any warning - weird sounds or something - or does it just stop working altogether? How do you know when it dies?

I imagine that all spas will need servicing at some point - which spas do you prefer to work on? Which ones do you find harder to service?

The thermostatically-controlled light bulb in the equipment bay sounds like a good idea. Possibly a small fan to improve air circulation, too. This would have to be on a separate circuit from the spa, of course.

Once I finally get my spa, I will perform a number of experiments with it - rate of temperature fall on removal of power, rate of temperature rise upon heating, pump run, etc. I can just see it: "No, you can't use the spa for a few days, I'm running an experiment!" Yeah, that would go over like a ton of bricks.

Regards,

Altazi

I'm going to defer to Chas's experience and say, yup that has been about the same experience for me. As far as what repairs I do the most and what causes them, I would say about 60/40 60 percent just simple wear and tear and 40 percent owner abuse. As far as service, and I wish some more experienced and savy techs would jump in but I find them all pretty much the same to work on, your always on your knees poking your head inside a small space fixing a plumbing problem (just like in a home under a sink) whether it be replacing a part of glueing, threading a fitting. The hardest part is usualy the tubs location on a deck or next to some sort of obstruction. To be honest, and as said before 95-99% percent of the work is in the equipment area and no matter what brand it is still an equipment area, stuffed with pump/s heaters and controls. And the fancier the unit the more pumps and junk that has to be plumbed and routed in a small area, so the value, single pump single control units are a bit simpler but its still an equipment area full of plumbing and stuff. Some are routed better than others and easier to access all of the stuff. Some are a bit more difficult. One thing is for certain, make sure all pumps have gate valves. I worked on a Sundance last week that had 2 pumps, one needed a seal and there was no gate valves on either pump so a drain was mandatory. Or I have these slick plugs but it is still a mess because gallons rush out before you can get the line plugged and unplugged for reinstallation of the pump. That tub is 5 years old and the seal on the 2 speep primary pump was junk, typical.

As far as warning on the circ pump, not really it just shows a flow error and then it's a simple trouble shoot starting at the filter. Take it out and check for flow, move to the line to the circ pump at the circ pump entry and check for flow (thats a technical term for take loose a clamp and see if water flows) Then I check it backwards first from the jet back to the circ pump exit, again check for flow with it powered down, this is where you will check the flow sensor for funtion, then its on to power up and listen and feel the circ pump. Only after all else fails do we conclude a circ pump failure and as chas said its 5 minutes to take it out and another 10 to take it apart to see if it can be cleaned to lenghten its life or, and I always recommend this after about 4-5 years, just replace it.

As much as some don't like those "tiny" circ pumps as they are called, they are extremely quiet, extremely energy effiecient and they do an adequte job of filtering and you can always supplement it with the jet pumps for a short clean up cycle. So I like them. But I also like a good 2 speep pump for filtering and heating. And if I had my choice I would opt for a "tiny " circulation pump becaue of the reasons mentioned above. But the other method is just as good. I want to say a small 48 frame 1-2 HP filter pump would also be a good idea but I just don't like putting a small jet pump under the hood for filtering along with one or more other pumps to run the spa, to much junk in there. It's to bad they don't make a little DC magnetic drive pump motor that is big enough to move enough water, and is affordable....12 volts!! Then we could use a battery as a back up for power down situations to prevent freeze. Affordable is the key word there though.

More to ponder Al......sorry.

[Roger]

Hey spatech, you may have misread my post as it has NOTHING to do with TP vs FF. I just wanted to know from any of you more expert industry folks whether draining a tub before winter and then refilling in spring does any damage to the unit or speeds up the degradation of the tub. In other words, is there any downside to draining completely if the tub will not be used for the next 6 months.

And Roger, the tub is located 7 miles west of Rhinelander, WI in our little slice of heaven.

Draining for winter storage. There are those that will tell you it is just as hard on your pump seals to let them sit dry then to run them, and this is probably true. I have seen it go both ways. There are those that drain every year for non use for extended periods that have no trouble at start up and there are those that have pump seal and fitting problems almost every season at start up. Plumbing stays tighter when its hot (you know the old expand and contract thing) My opinion is still out on this one. I can tell you that if a winterization is done right it will improve your chances of not having a problem. I have seen catastropic problems because of an improper drain, water left in a downward facing 90 degree turn that froze solid and broke the 90 in half. On a full foam tub, only 2 inches from the bottom in the foam but still needed to be tipped on its side to repair. If you could run some RV antifreeze or glycol through the whole tubs plumbing it would be great, but it's easier to just suck all the water from the plumbing with a shop vac, and then pour a bit of antifreeze into the jet faces. It's actualy quit simple if you use common sense and look at the plumbing.

Kinda like a motor home though, it has only 20-30 thousand miles on it but it is just as wore out as the vehicle you drive everyday that has 100 thou on it because it's just as bad to let it sit as it is to use it.

7 miles west of rhinlander huh...I could take care of that for you, you keep a stocked fridge? Can I do it on a weekend? Can I bring my wife? Thats what 3-4 hours?

[wesj53]

I admit my friend Altazi is more technically competent than I, but could you industry guys please address my question in my prior post about "winterizing" spas that are located hundreds of miles away from the owner's primary location (and in a very harsh winter climate) and will not be used for 6 months at a time? We have drained in the past 2 years in Oct and refilled in May. Does this damage the unit in any way and/or are we speeding up the degradation process of the tub?

[Altazi]

Thank you Roger & Chas for taking the time to provide such worthwhile information.

I'm sure the inclusion of a small circ pump is an arguable feature (not by me, necessarily), but surely EVERYONE can agree that gate valves on the pumps make sense. I can imagine the mess with gallons of water gushing out as you try to stick some kind of plug on the pipe.

I do feel like I'm learning quite a bit about the various aspects of portable spas. Well-informed is well-armed. At least I think I could separate dealer BS from good information. Of course, there is still much more to learn!

Regards,

Altazi

[Roger]

Thank you Roger & Chas for taking the time to provide such worthwhile information.

I'm sure the inclusion of a small circ pump is an arguable feature (not by me, necessarily), but surely EVERYONE can agree that gate valves on the pumps make sense. I can imagine the mess with gallons of water gushing out as you try to stick some kind of plug on the pipe.

I do feel like I'm learning quite a bit about the various aspects of portable spas. Well-informed is well-armed. At least I think I could separate dealer BS from good information. Of course, there is still much more to learn!

Regards,

Altazi

Keep in mind Al that dealer BS is not all bad. They see there tubs everyday and hear from there customers every day, and while yes they are trying sell them no matter what, most still do know there product. But armed with information you can at leaset know when they bad mouth there compitition and say how much better they are than them. When you go to said compitition and they say the oppisite, you at the least won't be confused. Look under the hood when you go to the dealer, you seem like a smart guy, form your own opinion armed with as many of ours as you can get. Then come back we will give you an honest assesment no matter what brand.