Choosing A New Spa

[unionguy2]

Hello. We have wanted a spa for many years, but always were apprehensive in making the plunge. We have known people to go out and spend tons of cash on spas, only to have them turn into broken down eyesores a few months later. We have heard that the quality of spas has greatly increased and the prices are reasonable. So, now we are seriously considering entering the world of spa ownership.

We have a large wooden deck that is well built and can hold a great deal of weight. There is only two of us, so we are looking at the smaller spas. We live in a very cold winter climate and are egar to relax in the warmth after long days at work.

We have narrowed our search down to 3 models. If any of you can give us pros or cons on the following models, it would be greatly appreciated.

1. Marquis Spa - The "Rendevous Model", formerly named "Hideaway". We really like the triangular shape and have heard it is a decent model. The Local retailer has it in stock and it is going for $3,500. We are a bit concerned that it is being touted as a plug-in ready to go model. I remembering hearing that I should go to something that was 220, and stay away from the 110 models. I asked the clerk about this and was told that I would be fine with 110. She said the only issue I would have is that using 110, the jets would not be able to operate when the heater was on. This sounds huge to me, but she said it was of no big importance. Also, she said if I did not like using 110, I could switch to 220, and it would be a very simple procedure. We have heard that Marquis Spas were reliable and this one sounds good to us.

2. Four Winds - Eros Spa. We found this model while reading this web site. It is listed for sale by DiscountSpasDirect.com. Like the Marquis Rendevous, it is triangular and would look great on our deck. We are reluctant to buy anything sight unseen, so we do have some major concerns. The price for this is $2895, and because we would not have to pay tax, we would be saving an additional $350.00 or so versus the purchase at the local retail store. And these guys are offering free shipping. We know nothing about this other than the pictures on the web site.

3. HydroSpa - Vitalizer. We found this two person spa on the DiscountSpasDirect page as well. It is very long and narrow and would be a nice fit for us. Just as the Eros Spa above, we only know what the web page says and are a bit apprehensive. The price for this one, which includes free shipping, is $2849.00

If any one knows anything about either of these three spas and could offer tips for us it would be greatly appreciated. We are ready to go, and just want to make the correct choice.

Thanks.

[Hot H2o]

Hello. We have wanted a spa for many years, but always were apprehensive in making the plunge. We have known people to go out and spend tons of cash on spas, only to have them turn into broken down eyesores a few months later. We have heard that the quality of spas has greatly increased and the prices are reasonable. So, now we are seriously considering entering the world of spa ownership.

We have a large wooden deck that is well built and can hold a great deal of weight. There is only two of us, so we are looking at the smaller spas. We live in a very cold winter climate and are egar to relax in the warmth after long days at work.

We have narrowed our search down to 3 models. If any of you can give us pros or cons on the following models, it would be greatly appreciated.

1. Marquis Spa - The "Rendevous Model", formerly named "Hideaway". We really like the triangular shape and have heard it is a decent model. The Local retailer has it in stock and it is going for $3,500. We are a bit concerned that it is being touted as a plug-in ready to go model. I remembering hearing that I should go to something that was 220, and stay away from the 110 models. I asked the clerk about this and was told that I would be fine with 110. She said the only issue I would have is that using 110, the jets would not be able to operate when the heater was on. This sounds huge to me, but she said it was of no big importance. Also, she said if I did not like using 110, I could switch to 220, and it would be a very simple procedure. We have heard that Marquis Spas were reliable and this one sounds good to us.

2. Four Winds - Eros Spa. We found this model while reading this web site. It is listed for sale by DiscountSpasDirect.com. Like the Marquis Rendevous, it is triangular and would look great on our deck. We are reluctant to buy anything sight unseen, so we do have some major concerns. The price for this is $2895, and because we would not have to pay tax, we would be saving an additional $350.00 or so versus the purchase at the local retail store. And these guys are offering free shipping. We know nothing about this other than the pictures on the web site.

3. HydroSpa - Vitalizer. We found this two person spa on the DiscountSpasDirect page as well. It is very long and narrow and would be a nice fit for us. Just as the Eros Spa above, we only know what the web page says and are a bit apprehensive. The price for this one, which includes free shipping, is $2849.00

If any one knows anything about either of these three spas and could offer tips for us it would be greatly appreciated. We are ready to go, and just want to make the correct choice.

Thanks.

Out of the three go for the Marquis. The other two may lead you into the nightmare you described. There are other spas better than the Marquis but out of these three it is the best.

[flibotte]

I agree with the other post Marquis is your best bet out of the 3 you are looking at. If you live in a cold climate i would for sure go for the 220 spa. IMO, it is a big deal if you live in a cold climate not to be able to run the jets and the heater at the same time. I was at a cookout July 4th weekend and they had a 110 spa and after about 90 min in the spa with the jets going the water got too cold and it was 85 out, I cant imagine if it was 25.

[Trigger]

Union,

I agree with flibotte, that if you are putting a hot tub outside, and you are in a cold climate, you should absolutely go with a 220v set up. Don't even consider a 110 set up.

Of the three you mentioned, Marquis is the only one I would even consider. It has a much better name and reputaton for quality than the other 2, and offers more pumps, and a better vareity of seating and jettinng.

[grahamtasia]

I would also checkout the Solana TX. Its a great spa, built by Watkins, who also makes HotSpring, Tiger River Hot Spot. It has a triangular shape and is also outfitted with the Moto-Massage jet. Good luck in your search!

[wesj53]

I would definitey NOT recommend Hydro Spa. I was very interested in their Omni until I researched the company. They are not a BBB member and have a disatisfactory rating with numerous unclosed complaints lodged against them. Two dealers here in the Chicago area are dropping them due to faulty workmanship and lack of response to problems. I don't know anything about the 2nd company and Marquis is a line we looked at but they seem to charge a lot for a few jets so we knocked them out. My wife and I have thoroughly researched spas for about a month and have come down to 3 brands; Artesian, Barefoot, and Arctic. The first 2 are fully foamed; the latter not which has many advantages especially if you have a leak in the shell. Without all that foam, leaks are easy to spot and fix. I would definitely recommend you checking out all companies on the BBB website; there are a lot of lousy companies out there. The 3 I mentioned are all satisfactory with Artesian and Arctic having NO complaints registered against them over the last 3 years. That seems to be a great record to me! Plus, Artesian gives you a lot of jets for the money which we want. The spas you mention seem really cheap which would concern me. They are probably retail Costco-type specials which aren't built to the same specs as companies standard lines. We have been looking at spas that are all over $7k but we are looking for 6 people seating. I AM NOT A DEALER SO I HAVE NO BIAS AGAINST ONE MFG OR ANOTHER! Do significant research and wet test if possible!!

[unionguy2]

Thank you all for your help. We hope to make the final plans this weekend. You have been very helpful.

[Johnny Outdoors]

I agree with your concerns. Definately, Definately, Definately go 220 Volt. When you turn on the pumps and you are enjoying the power of the jets remember that heat rises and with the added turbulance the heat escapes quicker. Have you considered the Beachcomber Hot Tubs? I have just purchased one and waiting for the delivery (2 more weeks yipee). I purchased the 750 LE and I am not sure what the smaller models are. I have researched alot of tubs in our area (Belleville, Ont, Canada) and the Beachcomber crew were the only ones that left me with a warm feeling (no puns intended) about there product. Full insullation under the skirting so less heat loss and lots of jets and very well designed with a good warantee. It is very hard to beat the Costco warantee but I didn't like the construction of their tubs. The only thing I found as a negative about beachcomber was the price. They are definately on the high end of the price scale but so is the quality. As some of the others have mentioned there are some very good manufacturers out there you just need to be informed. Remember that if something and I mean anything doesn't feel right about the product or team selling them then DON"T BUY IT!!!!!!!

Best wishes and enjoy your purchase every night.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Shopping list for your hot tub search.

1/ Look for hot tubs that are easier to repair. As the hot tub ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the hot tub should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the hot tub. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple concessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane hot tub, the heat is dissipated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam, in a fully foamed hot tub, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for hot tubs with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of hot tubs use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay through the nose" for it.

3/ Look for hot tubs that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed hot tub is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient hot tub. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated hot tub has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for hot tubs with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper hot tubs will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good. The safest is to use steel boxes. If you put a 50 amp or a 60 amp sub panel in your home, you would never pass code if the panel was made of plastic for fire reasons. Steel is by far best container for electrical panels and control boxes. Aluminum is OK but not as safe as steel. (We have always used steel, and in 10 years we have had three boxes with electrical arcing. You could not even see the evidence of it until the box was opened. Then you saw all the black and melted parts. This can happen in any control box. You do not want any power junctions exposed outside of a metal housing. This stops the possibilities of fire.)

6/ Look for hot tubs that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the hot tub is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the hot tub has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on hot tub pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These hot tubs have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the hot tub should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the hot tub that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the hot tub. For instance, our least expensive hot tubs have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end hot tubs have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump hot tub with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the hot tub as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any hot tub that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid hot tubs that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a hot tub by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The hot tubs they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable hot tub. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about hot tubs and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy hot tubs that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conforming. The largest manufacturer of portable hot tubs does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any hot tub company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertising. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the hot tub company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertising. The hot tub industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because hot tub shoppers do not know anything about hot tubs. All of the advertising on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

[Brulan1]

Shopping list for your hot tub search.

1/ Look for hot tubs that are easier to repair. As the hot tub ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the hot tub should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the hot tub. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple concessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane hot tub, the heat is dissipated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam, in a fully foamed hot tub, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for hot tubs with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of hot tubs use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay through the nose" for it.

3/ Look for hot tubs that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed hot tub is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient hot tub. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated hot tub has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for hot tubs with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper hot tubs will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good. The safest is to use steel boxes. If you put a 50 amp or a 60 amp sub panel in your home, you would never pass code if the panel was made of plastic for fire reasons. Steel is by far best container for electrical panels and control boxes. Aluminum is OK but not as safe as steel. (We have always used steel, and in 10 years we have had three boxes with electrical arcing. You could not even see the evidence of it until the box was opened. Then you saw all the black and melted parts. This can happen in any control box. You do not want any power junctions exposed outside of a metal housing. This stops the possibilities of fire.)

6/ Look for hot tubs that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the hot tub is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the hot tub has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on hot tub pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These hot tubs have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the hot tub should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the hot tub that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the hot tub. For instance, our least expensive hot tubs have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end hot tubs have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump hot tub with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the hot tub as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any hot tub that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid hot tubs that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a hot tub by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The hot tubs they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable hot tub. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about hot tubs and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy hot tubs that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conforming. The largest manufacturer of portable hot tubs does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any hot tub company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertising. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the hot tub company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertising. The hot tub industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because hot tub shoppers do not know anything about hot tubs. All of the advertising on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

"He who talks about what they know, knows nothing". Brulan1

[Jim_The_Jim]

"He who talks about what they know, knows nothing". Brulan1

Really, then all the authors across the country who go to book signings are all stupid?

My book on spas has sold in over ten countries and in both paper and in digital format.

Apparently you are not understanding about some concession on your spas that is discussed and described in the shopping list.

Maybe you would like to discuss it?

[Stevie]

Really, then all the authors across the country who go to book signings are all stupid?

My book on spas has sold in over ten countries and in both paper and in digital format.

Apparently you are not understanding about some concession on your spas that is discussed and described in the shopping list.

Maybe you would like to discuss it?

Why would he discuss it with you? You know nothing... I thought he made that clear?

I'm glad you have sold ten books Jimmy. That's what you meant right? Did Snady buy 5 of those?

[Stevie]

HA! Beat ya Trigger! Is there a prize associated with that Jim?

So how is the wife? You never did answer...

Toothpick anyone?

In all these years, that's the best you can come up with on me? What about all the times I questioned your lies and ethics that you didn't answer? Like, are you REALLY an "electrical engineer" as you stated in a recent post? You chose never to answer that... Now worries....I know why!

What about the 1 million + views on that thread Jimmy... You say it's because you have posted it "on every spa forum" but you are banned for abusive behavior on all of them and I've never seen it anywhere else? How could it be THAT high? Fudging the numbers? Yeah.... I'd say so.... Great ethics you promote!

We're getting kinda bored with the same 'ol same 'ol... Got anything new in 5 years Jim? YAWN.......