Chemical Rash?

[kube001]

Hello,

I have been a hot tub owner for two years now and love it for back & joint pain as well as a great form of relaxation! From time to time I develop a rash which has been determined by two doctors as a chemical rash... almost hive like and has been described as dermatitis flaking in appearance (not the dreaded bacterial infection... whew). This rash is most common in cooler / colder weather (Ontario Canada) but occasionally I do get it in the warmer months.

I "think" I have a reaction to "Quick Clear" MPS oxy-shock and need some help on this topic please.... here are the details of our system and regime...

Hot Tub:

-Canspa Malibu, 345 gallons with ozonator

Filters:

-two Unicel 6CH-940 (rinsed weekly and alternated every 2-4 weeks with clean ones depending on tub use

Chemical specs: (Omni brand)

-Bromine: sanitizer tabs (floater) system 1-3 ppm

-TA: 110ppm (always fighting raise the alk)

-PH: 7.6 – 7.8 (always fighting to lower ph)

-Calcium: 100- 200 (but pretty steady at 130ppm)

-CYA: 20-30ppm

Additional info:

EcoOne products used: (chemicals added and adjusted as per EcoOne’s outline)

-“Monthly” every 30 days

-“Filter Boost” ½ cap into filter compartment when filters rinsed or changed

-“Filter One” to cleaned filters (filters are rinsed then soaked between 4 hrs – overnight then rinsed and left to dry until required)

Water:

-100-103*F

-filter cycles 20 hrs / day

-crystal clear and no odors

-changed every 2-4 months depending on usage

Regime:

-approx 1-2 tbs of “Quick Clear” (oxy-shock) is added after every soak

-water is tested using dip strips every 1-2 days and adjusted as required

-water tested using Taylor Test Kit (K-2005) weekly for greater accuracy and adjusted as required (usually 36-72g of Alk-up and 12-15g of PH-reducer are required)

Final notes:

-if water starts to get cloudy (this is rare) I test water and adjust as required (Alk-Up & PH Down) and use either 1 cap of Quick Clear and if that doesn’t work… 2 tbs of bromine concentrate and leave cover open with all 60 jets and bubblers at full tilt for an hr!

-I initially thought that it may have been bacteria and raised the water level then super shocked (1-2 full caps of bromine… readings off the scale) and let pumps run for 1 hr then used Swirl-Away for 1 hr… drained, scrubbed, rinsed (and rinsed and rinsed and rinsed) blew out all the lines and refilled.

-after a fresh fill I don’t get a rash but I find after Oxy-Shock has been introduced into the water (about 1-2 weeks… BAM… RASH CITY!) And it is only I who gets it… wife and the occasionally guests are fine.

The rash is killer… wakes me up in the middle of the night and I’m scratchin’ like a flea infested dog!

Any thoughts here folks?? Any assistance welcomed… thx!!

Oh ya… I do rinse off before I go in the tub and shower & use Aveno moisturizer when I get out too!

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Why are you using MPS after each soak with bromine tablets? Most people only use it weekly with this type of system. I would trying shocking weekly to cut down on the amount of MPS you are introducing. You may have to turn the feeder up a notch to keep the bromine level up since you won't be shocking and re-establishing the bromine after each use, but it is better than a rash.

Many people are sensitive to MPS, specially if you are prone to dry skin conditions. It is a very strong oxidizer.

[kube001]

Why are you using MPS after each soak with bromine tablets? Most people only use it weekly with this type of system. I would trying shocking weekly to cut down on the amount of MPS you are introducing. You may have to turn the feeder up a notch to keep the bromine level up since you won't be shocking and re-establishing the bromine after each use, but it is better than a rash.

Many people are sensitive to MPS, specially if you are prone to dry skin conditions. It is a very strong oxidizer.

The vendor I had purchased the tub from instructed me to add the MPS after each soak (they actually provided me with bromine tabs, some bromine concentrate and the MPS (Quick Clear from Omni) when the tub was delivered) and further advised to use the bromine concentrate only if I get into trouble... is that true?

Should I just use the tabs with ozone generator? When do you use the bromine concentrate and or the MPS? (or can I get away without the MPS because I have ozone?)

Last question... how do I get the MPS levels down... my understanding is bromine will dissipate slowly on its own but what about the MPS?

Thanks!

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

On a bromine system with ozone you can use MPS once per week, twice if the spa is used every night.

Bromine concentrate can be used a few different ways. 1: as a one step sanitizer using some after each spa use if you do not want a floater 2: As a shock weekly 3: As a start up to form your bromine reserve rather than waiting for tablets to dissolve. 4: To bring up your bromine levels if they drop to zero and you cant get them back up quickly.

Bromine does not dissipate, it gets used up when it works on fighting organics. It never leaves the water till you drain the tub, thus when you shock with MPS, chlorine (or brominating concentrate since it has chlorine it it) it re-establishes the used bromine allowing it to work again. You may notice as time goes on with the tub that when you shock, you bromine reading will get really high. this is because your feeder has been feeding bromine into the tub all this time and you are re-establishing it.

Chlorine and MPS dissipate. MPS works by creating active oxygen. It goes away fairly quickly. The inhert ingreidients in the MPS do not.

You can also choose to shock your tub with di-chlor. You may get a stronger smell, MPS is much better at reducing chemical oders and you have to watch the CYA level that it does not get high shocking with dichlor.

Even with the ozone, you need to shock. The ozone reduces how much chemical you use because you can keep your sanitizer level a little lower and do not have to shock as frequently as you would without one.

As far as the PH/Alk fight, keep the ALK on the lower side if you are having issues with the PH rising. TUrn the air off to the jets when you are not using the tub, airation increases PH. Always adjust the ALK before the PH. When you raise the ALK it is going to raise the PH also.

There are some enzyme products that you can use with bromine that are suppose to help make the water better on your skin. There are different opinions to how well they work.

[kube001]

On a bromine system with ozone you can use MPS once per week, twice if the spa is used every night.

Bromine concentrate can be used a few different ways. 1: as a one step sanitizer using some after each spa use if you do not want a floater 2: As a shock weekly 3: As a start up to form your bromine reserve rather than waiting for tablets to dissolve. 4: To bring up your bromine levels if they drop to zero and you cant get them back up quickly.

Bromine does not dissipate, it gets used up when it works on fighting organics. It never leaves the water till you drain the tub, thus when you shock with MPS, chlorine (or brominating concentrate since it has chlorine it it) it re-establishes the used bromine allowing it to work again. You may notice as time goes on with the tub that when you shock, you bromine reading will get really high. this is because your feeder has been feeding bromine into the tub all this time and you are re-establishing it.

Chlorine and MPS dissipate. MPS works by creating active oxygen. It goes away fairly quickly. The inhert ingreidients in the MPS do not.

You can also choose to shock your tub with di-chlor. You may get a stronger smell, MPS is much better at reducing chemical oders and you have to watch the CYA level that it does not get high shocking with dichlor.

Even with the ozone, you need to shock. The ozone reduces how much chemical you use because you can keep your sanitizer level a little lower and do not have to shock as frequently as you would without one.

As far as the PH/Alk fight, keep the ALK on the lower side if you are having issues with the PH rising. TUrn the air off to the jets when you are not using the tub, airation increases PH. Always adjust the ALK before the PH. When you raise the ALK it is going to raise the PH also.

There are some enzyme products that you can use with bromine that are suppose to help make the water better on your skin. There are different opinions to how well they work.

I will monitor the bromine levels and try using the bromine concentrate once a week as a shock opposed to the MPS.

We do keep the pump air jets off when the tub is not in use however we have air bubbler that comes on once every filter cycle (5xs for 4hrs in a 24hr period) for 45 seconds and it's not an option to defeat this function on our tub (Canspa Malibu model)... plus the EcoOne thrives on air induction so I'm kinda stuck there I suppose. Since using EcoOne... virtually no foam, tub ring and the filter cleaning is amazingly easy!

I was told to raise my Alk as well to possibly help the skin condition (less acidic?) so I guess this and the bubbler can drive up my PH... that part is not so bad I guess as I adjust this only once a week... I can live with that if it alleviates the rash!

Many thanks for the advice!

Cheers!

[WaterBeast]

Interesting, and thanks for posting the detailed information. My setup isn't all that different from yours. A few thoughts:

Shocking after each use and weekly is fine, and good practice, IMHO. Measure bromine levels before use, after use, and after shocking to calibrate appropriate shock levels. It doesn't take long to figure this out for your situation, then this level of testing is no longer required.

If your bromine is very high, or you shocked before use, these would be the two things most likely to cause some sort of chemical skin reaction. I am finding that my use of BCDMH (bromine + chlorine for activation/shock) cartridges and ozone (activation/oxidation) leave me in a situation where I don't need to use very much MPS (shock) or my bromine levels will be excessively high. 1 TBS MPS after use, or 1-2 TBS weekly is about all I can add without having high to excessively high bromine levels. I have noted some minor skin reaction when levels are too high (8-10ppm Bromine, recent pre-use MPS addition), so I just avoid this.

The high level of filter/recirc cycles are no doubt contributing to the pH rise and the never-ending pH/TA battle. I do this daily, and would think that correcting weekly would leave your water in a state where the Calcite Saturation Index was sub-optimal for too long. Since your pH would be higher than preferred for much of the week, scaling (calcium deposits) could be a bit of a risk, depending on the CSI.

Plug your spa stats into here and check the CSI: The Pool Calculator

Since it looks like you can't reduce the recirculation to reduce pH rise from outgassing, and you don't seem interested in daily monitoring/correction, you might consider adding 50ppm borates (e.g. ProTeam SupremePlus) as an additional pH buffer. This has worked out very well for me.

[Whoneedsavacation]

I tend to get a similar reaction to plain old dry skin, and it's worse in the winter. Cutting back on MPS may help. Another simple thing to try is putting on moisturizer after using the tub!

[kube001]

Interesting, and thanks for posting the detailed information. My setup isn't all that different from yours. A few thoughts:

Shocking after each use and weekly is fine, and good practice, IMHO. Measure bromine levels before use, after use, and after shocking to calibrate appropriate shock levels. It doesn't take long to figure this out for your situation, then this level of testing is no longer required.

If your bromine is very high, or you shocked before use, these would be the two things most likely to cause some sort of chemical skin reaction. I am finding that my use of BCDMH (bromine + chlorine for activation/shock) cartridges and ozone (activation/oxidation) leave me in a situation where I don't need to use very much MPS (shock) or my bromine levels will be excessively high. 1 TBS MPS after use, or 1-2 TBS weekly is about all I can add without having high to excessively high bromine levels. I have noted some minor skin reaction when levels are too high (8-10ppm Bromine, recent pre-use MPS addition), so I just avoid this.

The high level of filter/recirc cycles are no doubt contributing to the pH rise and the never-ending pH/TA battle. I do this daily, and would think that correcting weekly would leave your water in a state where the Calcite Saturation Index was sub-optimal for too long. Since your pH would be higher than preferred for much of the week, scaling (calcium deposits) could be a bit of a risk, depending on the CSI.

Plug your spa stats into here and check the CSI: The Pool Calculator

Since it looks like you can't reduce the recirculation to reduce pH rise from outgassing, and you don't seem interested in daily monitoring/correction, you might consider adding 50ppm borates (e.g. ProTeam SupremePlus) as an additional pH buffer. This has worked out very well for me.

I plugged in applicable stats to the pool calculator and the CSI came back as 0.64 not sure what this all means?

At any rate I bumped the filter cycle down to 18hrs / day (from 20) and will see if this helps the PH levels

I have not used MPS for a couple weeks now and we used the tub last night and have a killer rash today... 4 of us in the tub and I am the only one with the rash from hell. All levels seemed good Bromine 5ppm, TA 100, PH 7.8, CH 150, CYA 30 and the water is crystal clear with zero odor... I can't win here! And being in Canada of course I cannot obtain Cleanwater Blue or Rainforest Blue to try those products

[kube001]

I tend to get a similar reaction to plain old dry skin, and it's worse in the winter. Cutting back on MPS may help. Another simple thing to try is putting on moisturizer after using the tub!

I rinse off before going in... shower after getting out and use Aveno moisterizer... doesn't help at all

[WaterBeast]

You want to maintain the CSI near 0 if possible, and no more than +0.5 or less than -0.5. Any more that 0.5 means that you have the potential for calcium scaling, any less than -0.5 can lead to corrosion. This is the threshold for when you should re-balance the water.

Your CH is fine, I wouldn't raise it any higher. You can manipulate the TA and pH with the Pool Calculator to see how to bring your water into a little better balance. With practice I have found that I can maintain +/- 0.1 most of the time and never get past +/-= 0.5. Usually my pH is slowly climbing, so I play a slow pH-/TA+ addition game.

The rash has me mystified.

You might try a spa flush / decontamination routine to clear any resident biofilms that might be harboring somethign you are sensitive to. Also, consider using dichlor or bleach instead of MPS as a shock for a while. Reducing water temperature (heat induced rash), and making sure you aren't excessively blasting the same fleshy spot with a water jet also come to mind.

I am generally reluctant to state 'allergic to chemical x (like bromine, chlorine, etc.) without careful testing but it is worth considering.

A systematic process of elimination may be best. Keep us posted and I hope you get back to enjoying your spa soon.

Also, I would normally recomend amputation and/or biologic sterilization, but you seem like a nice person so I'll hold off on that advice for now.

[kube001]

You want to maintain the CSI near 0 if possible, and no more than +0.5 or less than -0.5. Any more that 0.5 means that you have the potential for calcium scaling, any less than -0.5 can lead to corrosion. This is the threshold for when you should re-balance the water.

Your CH is fine, I wouldn't raise it any higher. You can manipulate the TA and pH with the Pool Calculator to see how to bring your water into a little better balance. With practice I have found that I can maintain +/- 0.1 most of the time and never get past +/-= 0.5. Usually my pH is slowly climbing, so I play a slow pH-/TA+ addition game.

The rash has me mystified.

You might try a spa flush / decontamination routine to clear any resident biofilms that might be harboring somethign you are sensitive to. Also, consider using dichlor or bleach instead of MPS as a shock for a while. Reducing water temperature (heat induced rash), and making sure you aren't excessively blasting the same fleshy spot with a water jet also come to mind.

I am generally reluctant to state 'allergic to chemical x (like bromine, chlorine, etc.) without careful testing but it is worth considering.

A systematic process of elimination may be best. Keep us posted and I hope you get back to enjoying your spa soon.

Also, I would normally recomend amputation and/or biologic sterilization, but you seem like a nice person so I'll hold off on that advice for now.

LOL... yes I will hold off on the amputation... for now!

UPDATE: with regard to the CSI... as soon as you stated those #'s above I knew what you where talking about... duh!

I have this CSI wheel calculator with my Taylor Test Kit (K-2005) and I do maintain the same #'s as yourself... usually around 0.0 but never more than -0.1 or +0.1 I have been pretty successful with this. I must have not plunked in some data on that website. The water has been tested by two independent facilities and both indicated text book samples of clean healthy water. One test was with reagents and the other was laser scanned. Water went under a mic and zip... no beasties.

The Dr (3rd one) has concurred it is an allergic reaction and is now sending me to an Allergist. There were actually 2 Drs is this appointment and both indicated it was not folliculitis (sp?) These welts are not sore when depressed... just damn itchy... and flaky. I have been prescribed a heavy duty antihistamine and was instructed to use that until I see the allergist... kinda afraid to go in the tub right now though.

On another note... I was speaking to a gentlemen at Artic Spas here in Hamilton ON and he has a salt water system on display and said for me to get my swimsuit and come try that system so I may try that. Also, he had a couple of other suggestions which made some sense...

1) drain system, clean & refill and put NOTHING in then get it to the max temp... get in for as long as I can stand it. Two reasons for this... one... to draw any toxins out similar to a sauna (rather try the sauna!) and two... to see if I react to a heat rash. After I get out... balance the water and get my sanitizer levels up etc. He suggested moving from the feeder method (tabs and granular) to Brom-Aid which has NO chlorine in it then to use Energize (MPS) on a weekly basis or perhaps even try letting my ozonator oxidize the water instead of the MPS.

2) With my current water... let my sanitizer levels come down to 1 or even .5ppm and then start using the Brom-Aid and getting rid of the feeder (tabs). Try using the on board ozonator to oxidize and if that fails... a weekly shock of MPS may be required.

Thoughts on this theory welcomed... except amputation... at this point... not looking to be a beacon in the water for any SAR-TECS just yet... although the glowing rash may be visible from the air... not sure! LOL

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

The heat rash aspect is a great idea. I developed 3 areas of very itchyskin with little bumps. I am on the forum all the time and know water chemistry fairly well and I have never had a reaction to any chemicals, so I was baffled....untill I used my sauna....the rash got ten times worse. Hot showers bother it also.

If it turns out to be a allergy to chemicals, bear in mind a salt system is also going to create bromine or chlorine depending on the system.

[Itchy2]

I too suffer from the dreaded rash. Nice to know that I'm not the only one.

No one else that uses my tub gets it. I wake up in the night clawing at my legs they are so itchy! If I continue to use the tub they become welts. We switched from Chlorine to Bromine thinking that might help - it didn't. I now only use the hot tub very rarely and only for a few minutes at a time.

Kube01: what did your allergist have to say about it?

If anyone has found the answer or solution to this problem please share!

[whodyawant]

I too have had problems. We have had our CalSpa since August '08. It was new when we bought it. We have refilled it 3 times already because after using it for approximately 3 weeks on a new fill we get a patchy rash that occasionaly itches. The rash is always on me and my husband's ankles. Him on the inside of his ankles and mine on the outside! We are baffled. Some friends told us maybe we have eczema. We never had before and it only comes after the hot tub water is 3 weeks old. My 11 year old daughter uses the hot tub just as often and has no ill effects. This rash will stay on our ankles for several weeks. This last outbreak, we are going on a month now without using the tub and my husband's rash is still not quite gone.

I posted a lengthier post to ChemGeek's post just a bit ago if you want to look at my details. I won't repeat them here.

I really wonder if it might be the ozonator in combination with something we are using considering where the rash is located on us. Our ankles are usually right over the ozonator jet. Any thoughts?

[chem geek]

See my response here in the other thread.

[beleive]

Glad to see Im not only one with problem,Im going to dr. this week about rash on lower legs,it itches like crazy at night,there small bumps and skin on lower legs even look different.I was using chlorine with oxidizer,went to E-Z spa products still uses chlorine but not as much,Ive tried all kinds of lotion on market.I feel this going to be chemical rection.But will know soon.I do have a ozonator will do some checking on it.Im picky about my tub check it daily and keep everything in check.Not sure if any chemicals out there can use,thought about nature2 but still have use mps with it and read alot of people allergic to it.My brohter has softsoak system offered to me for free.I do have dry skin,I shower before and after and use lotion.Help,I love my tub.

[pondlife]

Kube001

Your rash does not sound like a contact dermatitis as you would have it all the time assuming the same chemicals are always present in the spa. An irritant chemical dermatitis would get worse with the increase in chemical concentration and would not be seasonal. Your rash is worse in the winter.

As we get older our skin especially on the lower legs dries out and needs regular at least daily application of an emollient (moisturiser), preferably one that does not contain potential sensitisers (perfumes and organic products and especially lanolin).

The temperature of beds can also be problem. Winter is a time for thick duvets and central heating leading to excessive drying. Try wearing shorts in the house to keep your legs cool. The early use of steroid creams or ointments as soon as the rash starts is worth at try. These should be used for a short period and applied sparingly.

The above has worked for me and I am able to use the spa every day. (Diclor, calcium hypochlorite and weekly MPS with ozone).

[Raegor]

Sounds like excema to me, unless you have blistery like bumps that sounds more serious.

I've had excema all of my life so I'm pretty familiar with it. Most common causes are excessive dry skin, mild allergic reactions, or even food allergies. Dry air from central heating doesn't help, I run a humidifier in the winter and end up using a lot of fragurance free moisturizer. Soap is an enemy, non diluted detergent also (2nd rinse is my friend), as is hot water which of course includes hot tubbing.

It helps to use corticosteriods for when things are bad but you don't want to use them regularly. Showering before and after with soap might not be what you want to do, it will increase your dryness. Oatmeal baths were always helpful to me especially before bed.

I'm a new spa owner so I'm experimenting with what works for me. I definately can't soak every night and I'm trying to keep the chlorine levels on the lower side. Haven't had any serious breakouts just the usual minor areas but its still early. Just ordered insparation's just soft so we'll see how that works.

[Itchy2]

Sounds like excema to me, unless you have blistery like bumps that sounds more serious.

It's definitely not ecxema (sp) for me. I've had it before and this is different.

Steroid creams do not help.

Moisturizers do not help.

Showering before and after does not help.

Covering up with blankets does seem to activate it. But I sleep without PJ's so am not about to lose the covers too.

I guess some of us are just plain allergic. I will continue to limit how often I go in - about once a month for about 5 minutes. Which is really too bad. Better that then the dreaded itch!

[potpie]

Have you guys read this thread I started http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18699 It may spark some other ideas especially if your water is in top notch condition. My wife's problem is solved and was actually caused by medication she was taking??

thread name is( I Love My Hot Tub Everyone That Uses It Is Fine But My Wife Getts Itchy And Bumpy )

[gunner12]

Hello,

I have been a hot tub owner for two years now and love it for back & joint pain as well as a great form of relaxation! From time to time I develop a rash which has been determined by two doctors as a chemical rash... almost hive like and has been described as dermatitis flaking in appearance (not the dreaded bacterial infection... whew). This rash is most common in cooler / colder weather (Ontario Canada) but occasionally I do get it in the warmer months.

I "think" I have a reaction to "Quick Clear" MPS oxy-shock and need some help on this topic please.... here are the details of our system and regime...

Hot Tub:

-Canspa Malibu, 345 gallons with ozonator

Filters:

-two Unicel 6CH-940 (rinsed weekly and alternated every 2-4 weeks with clean ones depending on tub use

Chemical specs: (Omni brand)

-Bromine: sanitizer tabs (floater) system 1-3 ppm

-TA: 110ppm (always fighting raise the alk)

-PH: 7.6 – 7.8 (always fighting to lower ph)

-Calcium: 100- 200 (but pretty steady at 130ppm)

-CYA: 20-30ppm

Additional info:

EcoOne products used: (chemicals added and adjusted as per EcoOne’s outline)

-“Monthly” every 30 days

-“Filter Boost” ½ cap into filter compartment when filters rinsed or changed

-“Filter One” to cleaned filters (filters are rinsed then soaked between 4 hrs – overnight then rinsed and left to dry until required)

Water:

-100-103*F

-filter cycles 20 hrs / day

-crystal clear and no odors

-changed every 2-4 months depending on usage

Regime:

-approx 1-2 tbs of “Quick Clear” (oxy-shock) is added after every soak

-water is tested using dip strips every 1-2 days and adjusted as required

-water tested using Taylor Test Kit (K-2005) weekly for greater accuracy and adjusted as required (usually 36-72g of Alk-up and 12-15g of PH-reducer are required)

Final notes:

-if water starts to get cloudy (this is rare) I test water and adjust as required (Alk-Up & PH Down) and use either 1 cap of Quick Clear and if that doesn’t work… 2 tbs of bromine concentrate and leave cover open with all 60 jets and bubblers at full tilt for an hr!

-I initially thought that it may have been bacteria and raised the water level then super shocked (1-2 full caps of bromine… readings off the scale) and let pumps run for 1 hr then used Swirl-Away for 1 hr… drained, scrubbed, rinsed (and rinsed and rinsed and rinsed) blew out all the lines and refilled.

-after a fresh fill I don’t get a rash but I find after Oxy-Shock has been introduced into the water (about 1-2 weeks… BAM… RASH CITY!) And it is only I who gets it… wife and the occasionally guests are fine.

The rash is killer… wakes me up in the middle of the night and I’m scratchin’ like a flea infested dog!

Any thoughts here folks?? Any assistance welcomed… thx!!

Oh ya… I do rinse off before I go in the tub and shower & use Aveno moisturizer when I get out too!

We had the same problem. My wife has eczema and I just got a rash. We tried chlorine and she couldn't use it. I still got a rash. We clean everything and switch to Eco One it was better but our tub smelled of fish. We found a product on a eczema web site for tubs call Aquafinesse. We have been using it for about 18 months now and we both love it. She has had fewer problems with her eczema. When we first changed over to Aquafinesse wow you should have seen the stuff that came out in our filters for about 2 weeks. The dealer we bought it from told us this product would clean up the tub and did it ever. We have had our tub now for 4 years and the last 18 months have been the easiest and cleanest of all. The water always looks great and smell good. Not like fish or chlorine. We have gotten all of our friend switched over after they soak in our tub. I would give it a try.