Question For Nature2 Users

[squidly]

I have ozone+N2 and my MPS levels are always good, but

I have a 0 chlorine reading. As long as the water stays clear

and non-smelly, can I hold off on the dichlor use, or do I need to maintain

a low chlorine level too?

Thanks

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I have ozone+N2 and my MPS levels are always good, but

I have a 0 chlorine reading. As long as the water stays clear

and non-smelly, can I hold off on the dichlor use, or do I need to maintain

a low chlorine level too?

Thanks

[/quoteYou are suppose to maintain a 0.5 risdual of chlorine. We have people that allow it to drop to 0 over the week and add a bit of dichlor weekly and do ok. They are very clean when they use the spa no swimsuits ect. You should shock with dichlor weekly..safer

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I have ozone+N2 and my MPS levels are always good, but

I have a 0 chlorine reading. As long as the water stays clear

and non-smelly, can I hold off on the dichlor use, or do I need to maintain

a low chlorine level too?

Thanks

N2 and ozone work bvery well but going without chlroine is not a good idea and shortsighted IMO. What I tell people to do is to simply add 1 teaspoon per person of dichlor AFTER you get out. By doing so you sanitize the water but since chlorine is not stable in hot water it dissipates quickly and when you go in the next day you'll have little to no residual when you soak. That way you don't soak in chlorine but you do add it upon your exit so it can do its work. Add to that a weekly shock and you'll have an effective system.

[squidly]

I do use dichlor once a week. The level drops

to 3 by the next day, but the smell lasts 3 or 4

days, so I usually just use it on the weekends.

Maybe it's time to try the unscented bleach route.

Thanks for the answers guys. Just wanted to be safe

[chem geek]

You could certainly try the unscented bleach (though need to watch the pH more carefully as it will tend to rise so would need to keep the TA lower), but I doubt it will make any difference in the "smell" for 3 to 4 days since such smell is probably from chlorine combining with ammonia to form monochloramine (which smells worse than chlorine). Normally, the MPS should be oxidizing your ammonia and urea from sweat, but if you aren't using enough then it's possible that the ammonia/urea is building up and when you add chlorine it then smells. Using bleach won't change this behavior. The key is to use enough oxidizer of any kind, be it chlorine from Dichlor or bleach or be it MPS. Remember the rough rule of 7 ppm FC needed per person-hour of soaking in 350 gallons. So each half-hour of one person is around 3.5 ppm FC or roughly 2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 4 teaspoons of MPS.

[squidly]

Whoa, 4 tbsp? I've just been following the N2 directions and using 1.5 before and after each use. I'll start using more and see what happens. Thanks

[chem geek]

Whoa, 4 tbsp? I've just been following the N2 directions and using 1.5 before and after each use. I'll start using more and see what happens. Thanks

That's 4 teaspoons, not tablespoons, of MPS for each half-hour of one person soaking in 350 gallons. So if you've been using 1.5 before and after, then that's 3 teaspoons which isn't that far off, but if you get behind then it could cause ammonia/urea to build up. Try using a bit more and see what happens.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Whoa, 4 tbsp? I've just been following the N2 directions and using 1.5 before and after each use. I'll start using more and see what happens. Thanks

That's 4 teaspoons, not tablespoons, of MPS for each half-hour of one person soaking in 350 gallons. So if you've been using 1.5 before and after, then that's 3 teaspoons which isn't that far off, but if you get behind then it could cause ammonia/urea to build up. Try using a bit more and see what happens.

I found with N2, keeping a .5 risdual (MPS at each use and dichlor weekly) I had to use a higher quality MPS. Check to see if the active potassium peroxymonosulfate is higher than 31%. I use one that is 45% and it works much better.

[squidly]

I use MPS with 55% and I've found that my FC levels drop to 0 in 3-4 days.

The cover is on all the time when I'm not using it.

I must be the dirtiest SOB on here.

[chem geek]

I found with N2, keeping a .5 risdual (MPS at each use and dichlor weekly) I had to use a higher quality MPS. Check to see if the active potassium peroxymonosulfate is higher than 31%. I use one that is 45% and it works much better.

Good catch! My calculations for MPS assumed 43% potassium peroxymonosulfate which is standard with Oxone from Dupont and which is used in most MPS products, if undiluted by other "fillers". The bulk of the rest of Oxone is potassium sulfate, potassium bisulfate, and some potassium persulfate (peroxydisulfate).

squidly, the maximum active MPS would be 49% since it is a salt of 3 compounds. So the 55% might be the percentage of this triple salt which means the active MPS portion is no more than 0.49*0.55 = 27% and is probably more like 0.43*0.55 = 24%

[WaterBeast]

My OXY-SPA Non-Chlorine Shock, presumably relabelled Dupont Oxone, is 42.8% Potassium Peroxymonsulfate, 57.2% inert ingredients.

This is right under the much larger font stating: "100% Monopersulfate Compound".

I guess marketing determined that 57% inert stuff wouldn't be a big seller so they decided to put a positive spin on reality.

WaterBeast

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Marketing ploys suck! Sea Klears MPS is 45.2% potassium peroxymonosulfate. They used to say 100% monopersulfate [b]Compound[/b] but have since changed it.

[jeffr72]

I contacted a sales rep for Seaklear when I needed to make a purchase and was told the key to a higher quality MPS is in the active oxygen content.

My container of SeaKlear lists active oxygen at 4.7%. The MPS that came w/spa was in the 3.8% range.

jeff

[squidly]

I also use Oxy-Spa.

It has 2.4% less peroxymonosuphate (45.2-42.8%) and .5% less oxygen content (4.7-4.2%) than SeaKlear.

I doubt that's going to make a noticable difference, right?

[jeffr72]

Hi,

I don't know the chemical function of the active oxygen. Perhaps someone in the group can help with this one.

jeff

[chem geek]

Hi,

I don't know the chemical function of the active oxygen. Perhaps someone in the group can help with this one.

jeff

Jeff,

The MPS non-chlorine shock products are all essentially the same main ingredient which is a triple salt of potassium sulfate, potassium bisulfate and potassium monopersulfate with a chemical formula of K2SO4•KHSO4•2KHSO5. Only the last one of those three has active oxygen which is another way of saying that it's oxygen in a more unstable and reactive state (it's the SO5 vs. the stable SO4). It is simply an oxidizer and can eliminate ammonia, urea and other organic compounds (i.e. bather waste from sweat, urine, dead skin, etc.).

The triple salt has a molecular weight of 614.77 while the triple salt is 28.3% potassium sulfate, 22.1% potassium bisulfate and 49.5% potassium monopersulfate. In practice, no product is 100% pure of this triple salt and instead has some contamination (and pH balancing) with some peroxydisulfate and magnesium carbonate with typical product having 43% potassium monopersulfate. The extra "unstable and reactive" or active oxygen is two oxygen atoms in the triple salt or 5.2% of the pure triple salt or around 4.5% of the more typical slightly impure product.

As for the strength of the MPS product and whether this matters, it's really just a cost consideration. If a lower concentration product was at a lower price, then it's not a big deal, assuming that the "filler" isn't something that causes any problems.

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Richard, As a note, we have found that the filler in some of the brands does cause a residue. The cost is very close to the same, some the higher quality product seems to be a better choice in our opinion.

[limulus]

I want re-open this thread about FC and N2. After filling (488 gal) and balancing, I inserted our N2 cart and shocked with 3tbs dichlor. After 30min of mixing, I checked it and it was at 10ppm. The next day, it was down to near 0. Trying to stick to the recipe, I added 2tsp dichlor about 30min before entering and again 2tsp afterward. After the final addition and 20-30 min, I checked it using an AquaCheck strip and the FC was up to 3+. The next day it's always back to about 0 (Taylor K2006 and AquaCheck strip) and I add dichlor again before and after soaking. We elected to use dichlor instead of MPS per Pg 7 of the instructions. There is also a copper ionizer on this tub.

I'm assuming that my pre and post addition of dichlor along with N2 and the copper ionizer is keeping our water clean. Our pH is always a little low and I have it around 7 now. I've opened up the air a little on some of the jets to aerate the water during the normal filtering cycles (6hrs/day). I hope that raises it a little more. TA is around 100 and CH is now 110.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I want re-open this thread about FC and N2. After filling (488 gal) and balancing, I inserted our N2 cart and shocked with 3tbs dichlor. After 30min of mixing, I checked it and it was at 10ppm. The next day, it was down to near 0. Trying to stick to the recipe, I added 2tsp dichlor about 30min before entering and again 2tsp afterward. After the final addition and 20-30 min, I checked it using an AquaCheck strip and the FC was up to 3+. The next day it's always back to about 0 (Taylor K2006 and AquaCheck strip) and I add dichlor again before and after soaking. We elected to use dichlor instead of MPS per Pg 7 of the instructions. There is also a copper ionizer on this tub.

I'm assuming that my pre and post addition of dichlor along with N2 and the copper ionizer is keeping our water clean. Our pH is always a little low and I have it around 7 now. I've opened up the air a little on some of the jets to aerate the water during the normal filtering cycles (6hrs/day). I hope that raises it a little more. TA is around 100 and CH is now 110.

Get your PH up to where it belongs. A little low is a lot acidic. Every tenth low it is thwater is 10 times more acidic. You are 60-80 times more acidic than you should be. This may be part of the issue with no chlorine reading. If it is going fro 10 to zero in less than a day, its working on somethin. Get your PH up then see if it holds at least a .5 reading. You are adding before and after, but are you giving it a weekly extra dose of shock?

You should be ok as far as the germs being dead when you use the tub since you are adding dichlor before use plus you have Nature 2, but with this amount of adding of dichlor you CYA is going to get high very quick and then the chlorine is not effective, I think this is why N2 suggests the low chlorine recipe with MPS befoe and after and dichlor as needed to maintain a .5 risdual and weekly to shock.

[limulus]

Thanks HHT, I finally got the pH up to 7.8. BTW, the CYA did not even register on my Taylor kit. I just ran this test 5-min ago and the FC was also right at .5

[General Beluga]

You could certainly try the unscented bleach (though need to watch the pH more carefully as it will tend to rise so would need to keep the TA lower), but I doubt it will make any difference in the "smell" for 3 to 4 days since such smell is probably from chlorine combining with ammonia to form monochloramine (which smells worse than chlorine). Normally, the MPS should be oxidizing your ammonia and urea from sweat, but if you aren't using enough then it's possible that the ammonia/urea is building up and when you add chlorine it then smells. Using bleach won't change this behavior. The key is to use enough oxidizer of any kind, be it chlorine from Dichlor or bleach or be it MPS. Remember the rough rule of 7 ppm FC needed per person-hour of soaking in 350 gallons. So each half-hour of one person is around 3.5 ppm FC or roughly 2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 4 teaspoons of MPS.

So would I be correct in using 2/3 cup of MPS for 4 people soaking for one hour??

John

[chem geek]

You could certainly try the unscented bleach (though need to watch the pH more carefully as it will tend to rise so would need to keep the TA lower), but I doubt it will make any difference in the "smell" for 3 to 4 days since such smell is probably from chlorine combining with ammonia to form monochloramine (which smells worse than chlorine). Normally, the MPS should be oxidizing your ammonia and urea from sweat, but if you aren't using enough then it's possible that the ammonia/urea is building up and when you add chlorine it then smells. Using bleach won't change this behavior. The key is to use enough oxidizer of any kind, be it chlorine from Dichlor or bleach or be it MPS. Remember the rough rule of 7 ppm FC needed per person-hour of soaking in 350 gallons. So each half-hour of one person is around 3.5 ppm FC or roughly 2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 4 teaspoons of MPS.

So would I be correct in using 2/3 cup of MPS for 4 people soaking for one hour??

John

John,

It's a little less than that, but it's about right and depends on the temperature of the water and how much people sweat. However, that MPS will take care of the oxidation of bather sweat but will not be enough to prevent bacterial growth (unless you've also got Nature2 that has silver ions). So if you use that MPS prior/during the soak, then shortly after the soak some Dichlor or bleach should be added so that chlorine can kill bacteria -- enough chlorine so that you get a reading the next time you soak. It's hard to know how much, but it won't be very much since the MPS will get rid of most of what would have otherwise consumed the chlorine. You could start with one or two teaspoons of Dichlor shortly after the soak and see what you measure the next day.

Richard

[General Beluga]

You could certainly try the unscented bleach (though need to watch the pH more carefully as it will tend to rise so would need to keep the TA lower), but I doubt it will make any difference in the "smell" for 3 to 4 days since such smell is probably from chlorine combining with ammonia to form monochloramine (which smells worse than chlorine). Normally, the MPS should be oxidizing your ammonia and urea from sweat, but if you aren't using enough then it's possible that the ammonia/urea is building up and when you add chlorine it then smells. Using bleach won't change this behavior. The key is to use enough oxidizer of any kind, be it chlorine from Dichlor or bleach or be it MPS. Remember the rough rule of 7 ppm FC needed per person-hour of soaking in 350 gallons. So each half-hour of one person is around 3.5 ppm FC or roughly 2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 4 teaspoons of MPS.

So would I be correct in using 2/3 cup of MPS for 4 people soaking for one hour??

John

John,

It's a little less than that, but it's about right and depends on the temperature of the water and how much people sweat. However, that MPS will take care of the oxidation of bather sweat but will not be enough to prevent bacterial growth (unless you've also got Nature2 that has silver ions). So if you use that MPS prior/during the soak, then shortly after the soak some Dichlor or bleach should be added so that chlorine can kill bacteria -- enough chlorine so that you get a reading the next time you soak. It's hard to know how much, but it won't be very much since the MPS will get rid of most of what would have otherwise consumed the chlorine. You could start with one or two teaspoons of Dichlor shortly after the soak and see what you measure the next day.

Richard

Richard,

I am a new-bee so your assistance is appreciated. I have been reading all of the Nature 2 discussions and still need some guidance. I have a new Sundance spa about 450 gals. It has an osonator that runs 4 hours a day when the filter cycle runs. I am using a Nature 2 cartridge and keep the temperature at about 101 to 102. I flush, clean and rinse the filters weekly.

My wife and I have sensitive skin and want to minimize the chorine dry skin itchy feeling that we usually get after a soak. I have been using the nature 2 test strips to keep the MPS level in the proper range and I shock with two cap fulls of dichlor once a week (recommended by salesman). My wife and I usually soak about 4 times per week for about 45 minutes or so. I want to keep the Cyn to a minimum so what do you recommend given my circumstances?

1. Should I put in some dichlor mid-week to maintain a .5 FC? I want to avoid any skip rashes, etc so what would you suggest I do in my case?

2. Tonight my wife and I were in the spa for one hour and I added 3 ozs of MPS (6 tbs) using your example above. Is this considered a maintenance dose or a "shock" dose.

3. What amount of MPS would you recommend that I use to shock the spa each week given our usage?

Thanks,

John

[chem geek]

Richard,

I am a new-bee so your assistance is appreciated. I have been reading all of the Nature 2 discussions and still need some guidance. I have a new Sundance spa about 450 gals. It has an osonator that runs 4 hours a day when the filter cycle runs. I am using a Nature 2 cartridge and keep the temperature at about 101 to 102. I flush, clean and rinse the filters weekly.

My wife and I have sensitive skin and want to minimize the chorine dry skin itchy feeling that we usually get after a soak. I have been using the nature 2 test strips to keep the MPS level in the proper range and I shock with two cap fulls of dichlor once a week (recommended by salesman). My wife and I usually soak about 4 times per week for about 45 minutes or so. I want to keep the Cyn to a minimum so what do you recommend given my circumstances?

1. Should I put in some dichlor mid-week to maintain a .5 FC? I want to avoid any skip rashes, etc so what would you suggest I do in my case?

2. Tonight my wife and I were in the spa for one hour and I added 3 ozs of MPS (6 tbs) using your example above. Is this considered a maintenance dose or a "shock" dose.

3. What amount of MPS would you recommend that I use to shock the spa each week given our usage?

Thanks,

John

Given your sensitive skin and that you have Nature2 and you are keeping the MPS in the proper range, you're probably in reasonable shape if the water is kept hot. I don't believe I saw any hot tub rash/itch/lung problems with anyone using N2 AND maintaining MPS levels and it did appear that the combination was close to chlorine in effectiveness (though not quite). MPS isn't cheap, however, so you could use a combination of MPS and Dichlor (added separately) after a soak such that you have minimal Free Chlorine (FC) measured before you next soak, BUT have a measurable and proper level of MPS adding more as needed (i.e. the N2 instructions). So long as you add the MPS at least 5 minutes before your soak, it shouldn't be irritating (the silver in N2 makes the irritating part of MPS break down quickly).

Some people just use N2 with Dichlor or bleach, but have the amount be very low just before soaking and add a maintenance dose after soaking -- in your case with an ozonator I wouldn't recommend the bleach unless you were willing to adjust pH more frequently. If you are currently happy with your using MPS, I'd stick with it.

For two person-hours of soaking (you and your wife for one hour), about 5 tablespoons would be considered a maintenance dose, but since you have MPS test strips, you can see if that amount tends to have the MPS build up or if it still has a reasonable residual by the next day. Also, with your ozonator, you should be able to use far less MPS and still have a residual -- perhaps half the amount, depending on the strength of your ozonator. This is just something you are going to have to try out and adjust based on your measurements.

Shocking is usually to make up for not using enough maintenance mode or for killing pathogens that were allowed to grow due to some period of inadequate sanitizer in the water. If you are consistently measuring a residual, you may not need to shock. If you do, just follow the instructions with N2.

Richard

[General Beluga]

Richard,

I am a new-bee so your assistance is appreciated. I have been reading all of the Nature 2 discussions and still need some guidance. I have a new Sundance spa about 450 gals. It has an osonator that runs 4 hours a day when the filter cycle runs. I am using a Nature 2 cartridge and keep the temperature at about 101 to 102. I flush, clean and rinse the filters weekly.

My wife and I have sensitive skin and want to minimize the chorine dry skin itchy feeling that we usually get after a soak. I have been using the nature 2 test strips to keep the MPS level in the proper range and I shock with two cap fulls of dichlor once a week (recommended by salesman). My wife and I usually soak about 4 times per week for about 45 minutes or so. I want to keep the Cyn to a minimum so what do you recommend given my circumstances?

1. Should I put in some dichlor mid-week to maintain a .5 FC? I want to avoid any skip rashes, etc so what would you suggest I do in my case?

2. Tonight my wife and I were in the spa for one hour and I added 3 ozs of MPS (6 tbs) using your example above. Is this considered a maintenance dose or a "shock" dose.

3. What amount of MPS would you recommend that I use to shock the spa each week given our usage?

Thanks,

John

Given your sensitive skin and that you have Nature2 and you are keeping the MPS in the proper range, you're probably in reasonable shape if the water is kept hot. I don't believe I saw any hot tub rash/itch/lung problems with anyone using N2 AND maintaining MPS levels and it did appear that the combination was close to chlorine in effectiveness (though not quite). MPS isn't cheap, however, so you could use a combination of MPS and Dichlor (added separately) after a soak such that you have minimal Free Chlorine (FC) measured before you next soak, BUT have a measurable and proper level of MPS adding more as needed (i.e. the N2 instructions). So long as you add the MPS at least 5 minutes before your soak, it shouldn't be irritating (the silver in N2 makes the irritating part of MPS break down quickly).

Some people just use N2 with Dichlor or bleach, but have the amount be very low just before soaking and add a maintenance dose after soaking -- in your case with an ozonator I wouldn't recommend the bleach unless you were willing to adjust pH more frequently. If you are currently happy with your using MPS, I'd stick with it.

For two person-hours of soaking (you and your wife for one hour), about 5 tablespoons would be considered a maintenance dose, but since you have MPS test strips, you can see if that amount tends to have the MPS build up or if it still has a reasonable residual by the next day. Also, with your ozonator, you should be able to use far less MPS and still have a residual -- perhaps half the amount, depending on the strength of your ozonator. This is just something you are going to have to try out and adjust based on your measurements.

Shocking is usually to make up for not using enough maintenance mode or for killing pathogens that were allowed to grow due to some period of inadequate sanitizer in the water. If you are consistently measuring a residual, you may not need to shock. If you do, just follow the instructions with N2.

Richard

Richard,

Considering my situation as stated above, how may hours per day do you recommend that I run the filters on the spa. I have been filtering 2 hours every 12 for a total of 4 hours/day and the water looks fine. My spa model does not have a 24/7 circulating pump so all of the filtering is done by the low speed setting on pump #1.

Thanks,

John