Help With High Alkalinity

[k.walkr]

I am new to the forum and hope you folks can help.

I have 16K gunnite pool. I can't seem to balance the water. Here is the problem.

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to balance the PH without increasing the TA.

For example, I had a PH of 7.0, When I added enough Borax to raise the PH to 7.5, it also raises the TA to about 180.

Another example. I had a yellow mustard problem and the pool dude recommended a chemical called "Yellow Out". This product is most effective at a PH of 8.0 so he calculated the amount of soda ash to add to my pool so to bring the PH to 8.0. When I added that amount, my PH rose from 7.1 to 7.5, but my TA went off the charts at 250.

Today, I added muriatic acid to lower the TA and it is now at 150, but my PH dropped to 7.0

Now the question....from what I read, Borax was supposed to ONLY raise your PH...not your TA.

I thought by adding muriatic acid in one spot in the deep in of the pool, it would ONLY lower my TA...not my PH.

Is there any way I can lower or raise one of the other without it effecting the other.....

[mumpelnc]

I am new to the forum and hope you folks can help.

I have 16K gunnite pool. I can't seem to balance the water. Here is the problem.

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to balance the PH without increasing the TA.

For example, I had a PH of 7.0, When I added enough Borax to raise the PH to 7.5, it also raises the TA to about 180.

Another example. I had a yellow mustard problem and the pool dude recommended a chemical called "Yellow Out". This product is most effective at a PH of 8.0 so he calculated the amount of soda ash to add to my pool so to bring the PH to 8.0. When I added that amount, my PH rose from 7.1 to 7.5, but my TA went off the charts at 250.

Today, I added muriatic acid to lower the TA and it is now at 150, but my PH dropped to 7.0

Now the question....from what I read, Borax was supposed to ONLY raise your PH...not your TA.

I thought by adding muriatic acid in one spot in the deep in of the pool, it would ONLY lower my TA...not my PH.

Is there any way I can lower or raise one of the other without it effecting the other.....

I don't think there is a way to lower or raise without affecting each other....But this reading here is sure to work. I have done it plenty of Times..

It's not a overnight fix, but it will work

[k.walkr]

I am new to the forum and hope you folks can help.

I have 16K gunnite pool. I can't seem to balance the water. Here is the problem.

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to balance the PH without increasing the TA.

For example, I had a PH of 7.0, When I added enough Borax to raise the PH to 7.5, it also raises the TA to about 180.

Another example. I had a yellow mustard problem and the pool dude recommended a chemical called "Yellow Out". This product is most effective at a PH of 8.0 so he calculated the amount of soda ash to add to my pool so to bring the PH to 8.0. When I added that amount, my PH rose from 7.1 to 7.5, but my TA went off the charts at 250.

Today, I added muriatic acid to lower the TA and it is now at 150, but my PH dropped to 7.0

Now the question....from what I read, Borax was supposed to ONLY raise your PH...not your TA.

I thought by adding muriatic acid in one spot in the deep in of the pool, it would ONLY lower my TA...not my PH.

Is there any way I can lower or raise one of the other without it effecting the other.....

I don't think there is a way to lower or raise without affecting each other....But this reading here is sure to work. I have done it plenty of Times..

It's not a overnight fix, but it will work

Can't seem to get that link to work

[mumpelnc]

I am new to the forum and hope you folks can help.

I have 16K gunnite pool. I can't seem to balance the water. Here is the problem.

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to balance the PH without increasing the TA.

For example, I had a PH of 7.0, When I added enough Borax to raise the PH to 7.5, it also raises the TA to about 180.

Another example. I had a yellow mustard problem and the pool dude recommended a chemical called "Yellow Out". This product is most effective at a PH of 8.0 so he calculated the amount of soda ash to add to my pool so to bring the PH to 8.0. When I added that amount, my PH rose from 7.1 to 7.5, but my TA went off the charts at 250.

Today, I added muriatic acid to lower the TA and it is now at 150, but my PH dropped to 7.0

Now the question....from what I read, Borax was supposed to ONLY raise your PH...not your TA.

I thought by adding muriatic acid in one spot in the deep in of the pool, it would ONLY lower my TA...not my PH.

Is there any way I can lower or raise one of the other without it effecting the other.....

I don't think there is a way to lower or raise without affecting each other....But this reading here is sure to work. I have done it plenty of Times..

It's not a overnight fix, but it will work

Can't seem to get that link to work

I hope it works now..

[chem geek]

It is not true that Borax raises the pH without raising the TA. What is true is that it raises the TA by half the amount that pH Up (sodium carbonate) does.

The way to raise the pH with no change in TA is to aerate the water. The way to lower the TA is to aerate the water at a low pH and add acid to keep the pH low. This is described in this post.

[k.walkr]

OK...I think I understand and thanks for the advice and for not making me feel stupid (which I probably should). I plan on following the procedure from now on and not pay a lot of attention to the "pool dude". Thanks again.

[chem geek]

If you had lowered your pH to around 7.0 as the procedure describes and added acid when the pH rose to 7.2 or so, then the procedure would have gone a lot faster. It's not just aeration, but an overall low pH that speeds up the process. What you described is the alternative way of doing this which is not to lower the overall pH but just to add acid whenever the pH rises (say from 7.5 to 7.8) since over time that will end up lowering the TA.

[rbdeli]

Is it true that if my total alkalinity was really high it would make it much more difficult to make drastic changes in the PH?

In my case, I was afraid to get the PH too low all at once because I had such a difficult time raising it. Aereation was a slow process, but it worked. I was pretty cautious about it. Will a lower Total alkalinity make changes in PH up or down occur more quickly?

If you had lowered your pH to around 7.0 as the procedure describes and added acid when the pH rose to 7.2 or so, then the procedure would have gone a lot faster. It's not just aeration, but an overall low pH that speeds up the process. What you described is the alternative way of doing this which is not to lower the overall pH but just to add acid whenever the pH rises (say from 7.5 to 7.8) since over time that will end up lowering the TA.

[chem geek]

Is it true that if my total alkalinity was really high it would make it much more difficult to make drastic changes in the PH?

In my case, I was afraid to get the PH too low all at once because I had such a difficult time raising it. Aereation was a slow process, but it worked. I was pretty cautious about it. Will a lower Total alkalinity make changes in PH up or down occur more quickly?

You are right that at a high TA level it takes more acid to lower the pH, but there's no problem doing that. If you have an acid demand test in your test kit (as is found in the Taylor K-2006) you can use that to accurately determine how much acid it would take to get to any pH, such as 7.0. The Pool Calculator has been enhanced to be more accurate for these calculations, though is still an approximation. My spreadsheet will do the accurate calculations, but it's not for novice users (you enter the starting data and the target pH you want and click on the "Calculate Acid/Base/TA" button).

A lower TA does make the pH go up or down from addition of base or acid, respectively, more easily (i.e. using less quantity).

[rbdeli]

Great spreadsheet, Richard. Thanks for sharing.

Rob

Is it true that if my total alkalinity was really high it would make it much more difficult to make drastic changes in the PH?

In my case, I was afraid to get the PH too low all at once because I had such a difficult time raising it. Aereation was a slow process, but it worked. I was pretty cautious about it. Will a lower Total alkalinity make changes in PH up or down occur more quickly?

You are right that at a high TA level it takes more acid to lower the pH, but there's no problem doing that. If you have an acid demand test in your test kit (as is found in the Taylor K-2006) you can use that to accurately determine how much acid it would take to get to any pH, such as 7.0. The Pool Calculator has been enhanced to be more accurate for these calculations, though is still an approximation. My spreadsheet will do the accurate calculations, but it's not for novice users (you enter the starting data and the target pH you want and click on the "Calculate Acid/Base/TA" button).

A lower TA does make the pH go up or down from addition of base or acid, respectively, more easily (i.e. using less quantity).