Help Me Separate Facts From The Bs

[merc80]

I've been in the pool service business about 10 years now, most of that time working for my family's pool service business in Florida. I moved to Tennessee a few years ago, and since then have worked in the service department of a couple different retail stores. I won't go into all the differences between the two areas, but there are some things that are accepted as facts in the retail stores where I've worked, but that I either question or just totally disagree with. I'm not trying to bash anybody, I just want to be as informed as possible. I'll list the questionable statements I've heard, followed by my comments or opinion. I suspect that a lot of these "truths" are meant to scare people into paying $36 for 25lbs of baking soda.

1. Baking soda has additives that cause algae to grow, so you MUST use "pool grade" alkalinity increaser. I used 50lb bags of arm & hammer baking soda for many years without any problems.

2. When adding stabilizer, dichlor MUST be added at the same time. The explanation I'm given is that the two chemicals "hold hands" and allow the CYA to be absorbed into the water.

3. To decrease pH, broadcast sodium bisulfate evenly across the surface of the pool with the pump running. To decrease alkalinity, turn the pump off and pour the bisulfate all in one spot in the deepest part of the pool, in order to form a "column of acid." I heard the same thing taught at an Arch water chemistry class, so maybe there is something to this idea. It seems to me, that once you turn the pump on and your "column of acid" gets distributed throughout the pool, it's all going to even out in the end.

4. Pool pumps must be run 24 hours a day or else you will always have algae problems. In my experience 6-10 hours a day is sufficient for most residential pools, with a longer runtime during the hottest months, and a shorter runtime as the weather cools.

5. There is no need for metal control products, as long as Sea Klear clarifier is used weekly. I like Sea Klear, and it does claim to remove metals, but I've seen too many iron stains in pools that use Sea Klear to agree with that.

6. Never use liquid bleach or acid in a vinyl liner pool because having such a high concentration of bleach or acid wherever you add it will damage the liner. It seems to me that granular products would have the same risks, as well as the possibility that undissolved chemicals could sit on the pool floor.

That's all that comes to mind right now, but I'll probably think of more later. I don't claim to know it all, and won't be at all upset to be proven wrong. I just want to give the best service that I can, and I don't want to mislead any customers. Thanks to everyone with the patience to read this far, and even greater thanks to anyone that takes the time to respond.

That's all that comes to mind right now, but I'll probably think of more later.

[Strannik]

1. If it's plain baking soda it shouldn't have any additives in it.

2. Definetly bs. Dichlor already has CYA in it, why would you want to add more?

4. Bs. It will depend on your turnover rate, and algae has nothing to do with pump itself. As long as you get an even required level of chlorine around your pool it doesn't matter if you run the pump at all or not (from algae point of view).

6. Bs. It will mix up well before it hits the bottom. Unless you are putting it directly on a liner.

[merc80]

1. If it's plain baking soda it shouldn't have any additives in it.

2. Definetly bs. Dichlor already has CYA in it, why would you want to add more?

4. Bs. It will depend on your turnover rate, and algae has nothing to do with pump itself. As long as you get an even required level of chlorine around your pool it doesn't matter if you run the pump at all or not (from algae point of view).

6. Bs. It will mix up well before it hits the bottom. Unless you are putting it directly on a liner.

Thanks for the quick reply Strannik. #1 and #2 are the ones that always cause me to leave the room whenever I hear them repeated to a customer. I figured that they were just a way to scare people into paying $2 a lb for baking soda or $10 for a bag of shock. I just thought of another one...Mustard algae is caused by people swimming while on vacation in Florida and not washing their bathing suit well enough before swimming in their pool at home.

[Strannik]

Well theoretically it's possible if the get some algae in their suit and keep it wet all the time

[PaP dude]

1) Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. No matter what wrapper or bucket or pail it is in or how it is advertised, (whether it be arm and hammer, or alkalinity increaser) sodium bicarbonate is sodium bicarbonate, which is baking soda. The pail might say sodium hydrogen carbonate, but that is just a different nomenclature. Just look at the ingredients and make sure that there is no additives. I use arm and hammer myself and have never had a problem, ever. The food store I get it at (Wal-Mart) sells it for 50 cents a pound.

2) Pure BS. Stabilizer, which really is cyanuric acid (CYA), dissolves in water (which some times takes a while) by itself. As Strannik said, dichlor contains CYA in it. For every 10 ppm of FC (free chlorine) added by dichlor, 9 ppm of CYA (stabilizer) is added to the water. The fact that someone tells you to add both would just be adding more CYA than may be needed, which can be a problem. CYA is something you don't want too much of because of its effects on your disinfecting chlorine, (hypochlorous acid or HOCL) that is you would have to increase your FC levels to compensate. (You can read plenty of posts on this forum regarding this issue.)

3) Myth. The addition of any acid chemical, whether it be sodium bisulfate or muriatic acid will both total alkalinity and pH. The acid column or "slugging" effect was dismissed as not true. I think it was in this forum that Chem Geek posted the article about a study that was done regarding the different "methods" of adding acid to a pool, but I can't find it. (If he reads this, maybe he can help me out.)

4) Having optimum circulation in your pool is always a good thing. Sizing the pump and filter up are important. If this is done correctly, you wouldn't necessarily need to run your pool pump 24 hours a day. I usually tell people to run their pump 10 - 12 hours a day in the summer, usually when the sun is beating down on the pool. It is not good for the water to be stagnant when the sun is at its peak in the afternoon. (Assuming your pool is in direct sunlight, or outdoors for that matter.) I live in Florida and this rule of thumb usually works pretty well for my customers and my own pool for that matter. I've never lived in any other kind of climate so I don't know if any thing would change.

5) Metal control products (Jack's magic pink, blue, purple stuff or Natural Chemistry's metal free) are sequestrants or chelators. These chemicals "bind" some metals in solution so they don't precipitate out and stain your surface. Usually clarifiers are some kind of coagulant. This kind of chemical makes solid particles that are suspended in your water (making it appear cloudy: dead algae for example) coagulate or clump up into bigger particles so your filter can filter them out easier. I have never heard of Sea Klear nor do I know its chemical composition so the only thing I can tell you is to try to find the active ingredients.

6) Most pool stores who tell you not to use chlorinating bleach or muriatic acid in a pool with a vinyl liner assumes that the pool owner either neglects or has bad water chemistry. As long as you take care of the water balance (pH, total alkalinity, calcium hardness, CYA etc..) using bleach or acid shouldn't cause you any problems. (So long the pool has water in it) Make sure the water is circulating and poor the chemicals near a jet or walk around the perimeter of the pool while adding. If these chemicals are added carelessly, then damage to the liner can be done. With granular chemicals such as Calcium hypochlorite, it is a good idea to dissolve them before adding. Granular chemicals that are added directly to your pool don't always readily dissolve and can settle to the bottom of your pool.

Hope this helps you out some. You should read some other posts on this forum. Lots of good information from some bright minds in pool water chemistry is floating around here.

[chem geek]

The link to the article that PaP dude referred to is here that debunks the "acid column" or "slug" methods of lowering the TA. The only way that TA gets lowered is through a COMBINATION of acid addition with aeration. Now pools are always aerating so if you add acid to lower the pH and then wait long enough you will end up with a net effect of lowering the TA, especially if you repeat the process, but by understanding what is REALLY going on you can significantly speed things up by lowering the pH and keeping it low while aerating like heck and adding acid to keep the pH down. This post describes the procedure which uses a combination of aeration with acid addition.

On your other questions, both Strannik and PaP dude have explained the truth well and I have nothing more to add to those points. Just note that chlorinating liquid and bleach are denser than water until they are well mixed so you do need to make sure they get well mixed in a vinyl pool. As was noted, pouring slowly over a return flow in the deep end with the pump running helps and one can lightly brush the side and bottom after adding the chlorine to be safe. This is most important in pools without floor drains, such as most above-ground pools.

For more education in addition to what you find on this forum, you can read up at the Pool School at Trouble Free Pool and can use The Pool Calculator for calculations. For more technical info, you can peruse through my scary Pool Water Chemistry thread and other topics in The Deep End. [EDIT] By the way, the forum you have been perusing that no longer accepts no members is probably The PoolForum and you should also read through its companion site PoolSolutions. Since The PoolForum no longer accepts new members and its founder Ben Powell hasn't been heard from for quite some time, the site Trouble Free Pool was started and is where you'll find many of the members from The PoolForum. That's the main "home" where I post when I'm not helping out at other sites such as this one (and sometimes these other sites get nasty with personal attacks).

I also totally agree with you regarding the problem of oversized pumps and undersized plumbing. Though 1.5" lines for suction may be OK if split into two separate lines near the pump, the output of the pump should be 2" until split into multiple returns which can each be 1.5". There is nothing wrong with running at low-speed for most of the day for roughly one turnover as this saves energy, but this doesn't take a very powerful pump. Note that those with solar systems may need a more powerful pump to get enough flow rate. I have 12 solar panels with 4 GPM each so need 48 GPM, 3000 RPM, 1500 Watts when the solar is on, but when it's off I'm running at 26 GPM, 1500 RPM, 275 Watts. The runs to/from the house and across the roof through the solar system are long which explains the big difference in energy due to big differences in head beyond that explained by GPM alone. I replaced my old 1 HP main pump and 3/4-HP booster pump (for the pool sweep) with an IntelliFlo variable flow pump and am saving about half on my electric bill for the pump running costs (and that's a lot since it's a marginal 32 cents per kilowatt-hour at my tier in California). [END-EDIT]

Richard

[merc80]

1) Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. No matter what wrapper or bucket or pail it is in or how it is advertised, (whether it be arm and hammer, or alkalinity increaser) sodium bicarbonate is sodium bicarbonate, which is baking soda. The pail might say sodium hydrogen carbonate, but that is just a different nomenclature. Just look at the ingredients and make sure that there is no additives. I use arm and hammer myself and have never had a problem, ever. The food store I get it at (Wal-Mart) sells it for 50 cents a pound.

2) Pure BS. Stabilizer, which really is cyanuric acid (CYA), dissolves in water (which some times takes a while) by itself. As Strannik said, dichlor contains CYA in it. For every 10 ppm of FC (free chlorine) added by dichlor, 9 ppm of CYA (stabilizer) is added to the water. The fact that someone tells you to add both would just be adding more CYA than may be needed, which can be a problem. CYA is something you don't want too much of because of its effects on your disinfecting chlorine, (hypochlorous acid or HOCL) that is you would have to increase your FC levels to compensate. (You can read plenty of posts on this forum regarding this issue.)

3) Myth. The addition of any acid chemical, whether it be sodium bisulfate or muriatic acid will both total alkalinity and pH. The acid column or "slugging" effect was dismissed as not true. I think it was in this forum that Chem Geek posted the article about a study that was done regarding the different "methods" of adding acid to a pool, but I can't find it. (If he reads this, maybe he can help me out.)

4) Having optimum circulation in your pool is always a good thing. Sizing the pump and filter up are important. If this is done correctly, you wouldn't necessarily need to run your pool pump 24 hours a day. I usually tell people to run their pump 10 - 12 hours a day in the summer, usually when the sun is beating down on the pool. It is not good for the water to be stagnant when the sun is at its peak in the afternoon. (Assuming your pool is in direct sunlight, or outdoors for that matter.) I live in Florida and this rule of thumb usually works pretty well for my customers and my own pool for that matter. I've never lived in any other kind of climate so I don't know if any thing would change.

5) Metal control products (Jack's magic pink, blue, purple stuff or Natural Chemistry's metal free) are sequestrants or chelators. These chemicals "bind" some metals in solution so they don't precipitate out and stain your surface. Usually clarifiers are some kind of coagulant. This kind of chemical makes solid particles that are suspended in your water (making it appear cloudy: dead algae for example) coagulate or clump up into bigger particles so your filter can filter them out easier. I have never heard of Sea Klear nor do I know its chemical composition so the only thing I can tell you is to try to find the active ingredients.

6) Most pool stores who tell you not to use chlorinating bleach or muriatic acid in a pool with a vinyl liner assumes that the pool owner either neglects or has bad water chemistry. As long as you take care of the water balance (pH, total alkalinity, calcium hardness, CYA etc..) using bleach or acid shouldn't cause you any problems. (So long the pool has water in it) Make sure the water is circulating and poor the chemicals near a jet or walk around the perimeter of the pool while adding. If these chemicals are added carelessly, then damage to the liner can be done. With granular chemicals such as Calcium hypochlorite, it is a good idea to dissolve them before adding. Granular chemicals that are added directly to your pool don't always readily dissolve and can settle to the bottom of your pool.

Hope this helps you out some. You should read some other posts on this forum. Lots of good information from some bright minds in pool water chemistry is floating around here.

Thanks PaP,

Everything I listed I consider to be untrue, or at least very questionable. I've been reading through the old posts here, as well as another forum that doesn't allow new members. I feel pretty confident in my knowledge, but I still have a lot to learn. I grew up in this business, but since moving to a new state I find a lot of methods are different. Frequently there is a good reason for that, but sometimes there's not. I learned the trade as a service tech for a company that did flat rate billing. Therefore, I learned to use the minimum amount of chemicals that would get the job done. Since moving, I have worked for retail stores who I suspected were trying to scare people into overpaying for commonly available chemicals. Of all the things I listed, I would have guessed #3 as the most likely to be true. I have seen that in print a few times, but it just never sounded right to me. However, the true reason behind my post is that I am in the planning stages of beginning my own company. I just want to be sure that I'm giving my customers the most effective, yet economical service available.

A few more comments:

Regarding #4...Based on what I've read, mainly in "Watershapes" magazine the pumps I deal with almost daily are over-sized yet have under-sized plumbing. A 1.5HP SuperPump with 1.5" PVC is the standard around here. Most of the inground pools I service are between 20,000-30,000 gallons. I don't think it's so much that the pumps are too large as much as the plumbing is too small. I have several pools with 2HP pumps bushed down to 1.5" PVC, and I just don't think that's right. My opinion is most of these pools would be better served with a smaller pump run about 12 hours daily while the weather is at it's hottest, then the run-time could be scaled back as the hottest part of the summer passes. I think the reason so many people around here run their pumps 24/7 is that electricity is just so cheap.

Regarding #5...Sea Klear is made by Vanson HaloSource and the active ingredient is chitin, a by-product of crabs. I think it's a decent product, ok at several things, but great at nothing. I prefer Natural Chemistry's "Pool Perfect."

Once again, thanks for the replies. So far I've been getting some much appreciated good information.

[merc80]

Chem geek,

Thanks for the reply, and I'm also registering at TFP.