HouseBroke Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 I bought a house with a pool in Nortern California last fall. Haven't been able to use it yet but looking forward to the summer. It has a an ancient gas heater with is beyond salvaging, with a really scary big gas pipe running to it, looks kind of like a pipeline. My questions concerns pool heating. How much is enough, and what kind is best. I saw a product called the Solar Attic on the web. Its an appealing idea: use the heat trapped in your attic to heat your pool water via a heat exchanger (basically a fan blowing over a radiator) and cool your atic at the same time. This sounds a little too good to be true - save huge fuel bills v. gas or other fossil fuel heat, keep the house cooler, and no ugly solar panels on the roof. My first question is, does it work? Anyone have experience with these things? Does it really get the water warm? Second question is, if you have a two story house where the vertical rise to get the water to the hot part of the attic is going to be soemthing like 20-25 feet, does the extra electric bill for the pumping offset fuel savings on heat? Where I live we have very dependably sunny summer days, but most days only getting to 80-85 degrees, and cool nights, maybe 60-65 degreees. Everyone local agrees you should have heat if you plan to use the pool much. I'd also like to hear people's experiences with solar panels, whether they heat as much as you would like, and same question about the pumping and vertical rise. Finally, any thoughts on gas heaters from people in similar climes? I hear you can easily spend $500 per month on gas to heat your pool. I'm not going to do that, so if it costs that much there is no point in me investing in a gas heater I won't use. Thanks, HouseBroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drip Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Hey, I live in Texas so my opinion may not apply to a Cali. situation but here it is. I've seen several pools with solar heat and have yet to see someone happy with it, mostly they've been disconnected due to leaks or just not working very well. Nothing can compare to a gas heater as far as heat on demand and if you have a spa it is the only way to go. If you just have a pool and no spa and want to extend your swim season a heat pump would be the way to go. The savings can be significant, for example here in Dallas to heat a pool with 500 feet surface area (lengthXwidth) to 82 degrees from March to November with a heat pump would be approx. 600 dollars with a pool cover or 1034 without a pool cover, cost is for the whole years use. Natural gas for the same pool would be 1260 with a cover and 2720 without. Propane would be significantly more. These figures were given to me by a Raypac representative. Raypac manufactures pool/spa heaters. They say March to November because when it is below 50 degrees heat pumps quit working and they don't recommend heating with gas either because the heaters condensate more, although everybody does anyway. I would find a local company who can call Raypac and they can punch in your pool stats and give you an estimate cost of use for your pool and climate. Other manufacturers may be able to do this but I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouseBroke Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Hey, I live in Texas so my opinion may not apply to a Cali. situation but here it is. I've seen several pools with solar heat and have yet to see someone happy with it, mostly they've been disconnected due to leaks or just not working very well. Nothing can compare to a gas heater as far as heat on demand and if you have a spa it is the only way to go. If you just have a pool and no spa and want to extend your swim season a heat pump would be the way to go. The savings can be significant, for example here in Dallas to heat a pool with 500 feet surface area (lengthXwidth) to 82 degrees from March to November with a heat pump would be approx. 600 dollars with a pool cover or 1034 without a pool cover, cost is for the whole years use. Natural gas for the same pool would be 1260 with a cover and 2720 without. Propane would be significantly more. These figures were given to me by a Raypac representative. Raypac manufactures pool/spa heaters. They say March to November because when it is below 50 degrees heat pumps quit working and they don't recommend heating with gas either because the heaters condensate more, although everybody does anyway. I would find a local company who can call Raypac and they can punch in your pool stats and give you an estimate cost of use for your pool and climate. Other manufacturers may be able to do this but I don't know. Thanks, Drip. I found a web site put out by the federal Dept. of Energy that does this, and it comes to the same conclusion about heat pump v. gas. Here's a link to the figures for heat pumps: http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_h...m/mytopic=13220 and here's a link to the figures for a gas heater: http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_h...m/mytopic=13220 I ahve a couple of follow up questions for you. Did the heat pump cost a lot more initially than a similarly sized gas heater? What was the price diferential? I don't have a spa now but plan to add one later. I was expecting the spa and the pool to have completely separate systems due to the higher tempurature in the spa and the likely different chemical levels. Have you had any problems running them both off the heat pump? Are you mixing pool and spa water? Any problems with chemical levels or spreading of algae or anything from one to the other? HouseBroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drip Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 A heat pump will cost considerably more and are usually less than 200kbtu. They are not good for "on demand" heat like a spa might require. The price difference is about 2x the cost of a gas heater, approx. 5500-6500 installed would be about right if the electrical is there. In my opinion, gunite/concrete spas are nice to look at and the waterfall effect into the pool is nice but they just can't compare to portable spas as far as their ease of use and they are much cheaper to build and maintain heat than a pool/spa combo. To add a gunite spa to a pool will probable anywhere from 18k to 28k. A very nice portable will be around 10k and they are much nicer to sit in. But if you do add an inground spa it would be difficult to maintain 2 different temperatures, one in pool and one in spa. A heat pump can heat a spa to 103 but for inground spa heating a gas heater is usually the best way to go. Heat pumps are very slow heating but very efficient to maintain. Usually pool/spa combos do share water and are kept at the same chemical levels, very rare that they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I am also in Northern California (in the San Francisco bay area) and have solar panels on the roof. They are absolutely essential if you want your pool to be very warm. We try and keep the 16,000 gallon pool at 88F since it is used for water therapy. We have an opaque electric safety cover that helps keep down evaporation which is the main source of heat loss. It probably cuts down heat loss overnight in half from 6F to 3F. If one uses a bubble-type cover, then that is even more efficient and may result in only a 1.5F loss overnight. The Fafco solar panels are VERY effective and add around 1F per hour -- not bad compared to our 200,000 BTU output gas heater (theoretically outputs 1.5F per hour for our size pool) that we only use to extend the season into April and October/November (and sometimes in between when there are cloudy days). Gas (and electricity) are VERY expensive in our area so the solar really helps out a lot. They do require a high flow rate so that does mean a higher pump speed and higher electricity costs, but we find that the solar only needs to run around 4 hours per day on average. The rest of the time, the pump runs on a much lower speed. We have an Intelliflo variable-speed pump that has cut our electricity usage in half (it would cut down more, were it not for the solar). The price of heating the pool with solar vs. gas is no comparison and will pay for itself very quickly, possibly even in just one year or maybe two depending on the temperature you intend to keep your pool. It was the best investment we made. My comments relate to pool heating, NOT spa heating. For a spa, you will still want to have a gas heater for a quick boost to much higher temps (104F), but doing so for a small volume of water costs a LOT less than trying to heat the entire pool using gas. During November when there is minimal sunlight, it does cost up to $400 a month to heat the pool to 88F with the less-than-ideal cover I described earlier. It's about 8 incremental Therms per day at $1.54/Therm ($370 per month). We usually just do one month like that at the most. We've looked at getting big air-filled covers for the pool, but they are too big and the neighbors would hate us. So during the winter my wife has to use an indoor community center pool that unfortunately has no CYA and has the side effects associated with that (flaky skin, frizzy hair, more smell from disinfection by-products, etc.). Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discountpoolspa Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I also live in the northern san joaqin valley (northern cali). I have found that during the spring and fall months, solar panels on the roof are absolutely fantastic. The initial investment can be a bit high, but once it is installed, the costs are minimal. A properly sized system should keep your water about 10 degrees F warmer in good sunlight. Unfortunately, the only way to have warm water during the winter months is a gas heater. Solar panels are ineffective during cold/cloudy weather. Heat pumps are also ineffective in cold weather. Heat pumps work decent when it is hot, but only to bump up the water temperature a bit. I have talked to a few people in this area that keep their pools warm, using a gas heater during winter months, and it can be expensive. The few people I talked to had costs as such: (at the time, I asked them about december 2006) 1 - 20,000gal - solar(bubble) cover, kept at 85F - $600/month 2 - 18,000gal - automatic/electric cover, kept at 85F - $300/month 3 - 25,000gal - solar(bubble) cover, kept at 80F - $750/month Ideally, you would want solar panels on your roof, AND a gas heater. The more insulating your pool cover is, the better. Any cover that keeps the wind from hitting the water will help as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouseBroke Posted February 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 "Usually pool/spa combos do share water and are kept at the same chemical levels, very rare that they don't." Drip, I'm a definitely a newbie at this so pardon my ignorance, but this doesn't seem like agood idea to me. The temperature differnece is normally huge. I was thinking of heating the pool to 80 degrees, while the spa is going to be around 100. The spillover thing looks great but must be a huge wast of heat. Also, I ahve read that spas normally require more chemicals. I was thinking of having only one heater but switching the flow between pool and spa as needed. Anyone have experience with that? I would be interested in hearing what others think on the separate plumbed / common plumbing question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drip Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 It looks like I need to give solar panels another chance...I will be checking into those Fafco ones. If the pool and spa were kept separate and did not share water then two different temps could be maintained but the only time I've seen that setup is when both bodies of water had their own pump, filter and heater. It would be possible to do what you are wanting, valves could be put in that would keep them separate and they could be turned manually to do exactly what you are doing but the downside would be that one body of water will always be stagnant and may not be freeze protected. I would call a control system manufacturer like Jandy or Pentair and tell them what you are wanting and they may have a solution for you. I am assuming you want the system to maintain the heating automatically so you don't have to go out there 2-4 times a day. The Pentair Intellitouch would probably be the most likely to handle that. Hot water chemistry is much more demanding, if the temp is to be kept at 100 in the spa all the time then you would want to use bromine in the spa and chloring in the pool. One other crazy idea is that if you are going to be installing the spa would be to have it plumbed with a dedicated suction and return for a small circulation pump that could feed a relatively cheap heater. This way your spa would maintain heat, and if you are going to maintain 100 all the time a large heater is not needed as long as you keep the spa insulated. You would then use your larger pool pump to create the jet action in the spa. This is the way most portable spas are done and it has proven to be a pretty effecient way of heating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discountpoolspa Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 You could definitely use an automatic system, such as the hayward aqua-logic or pentair intelli-touch to keep the two systems separate, and heat them independently. (I like the aqua-logic) It would also manage your solar system if you chose. You could set the system to run the spa a few hours a day, and the pool separately, and set it to maintain water temperatures in both. If you had a second heater and second pump, the aqua-logic could run both simultaneously for best effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strdnord Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I know gentleman who is using the solar attic pool heater. He lives in Thousand Oaks, CA he seems to genuinely impressed with it's performance. He's used the system for 14 years now with no issues. If you would like I can ask for him to contact you concerning his experience with the solar attic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm just wondering......... I've never heard of this type of system........... What happens if it starts to leak?? 15,000 gallons of water being pumped into the attic doesn't sound like a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamessolar Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm just wondering......... I've never heard of this type of system........... What happens if it starts to leak?? 15,000 gallons of water being pumped into the attic doesn't sound like a good thing Dr spa, Impossible 15000 gallons inside the attic, you are assuming an attic can hold 15000 gallons. Now for some factual data on the PCS2 from solarattic. Yes let it be known in this forum I work for the company. I have worked for SolarAttic since 1994 in the manufacturing plant in doing assembly for the PCS1 now the PCS2. Let address some of the basics of the system. 1st. the number 1 killer of a pool heater is fossil fuel burners or compressed heated liquid. neither are on the PCS2. 2nd the Coils are much more substantial than what you find inside a typical pool heater or heat pump. Each coil is tested at 35O PSI the most an average pump sends through is 20-40 PSI. just a note in 22 years never a system failure the original system installed in Ocala, FL is still operating today. 3rd. The system has multiple safety measures built into the unit, including a leak detection which would trigger an auto system shut down. Just FYI the PCS2 is CSA certified which 90% of the pool heaters manufacture today do not meet the CSA quality standards. I hope this clears up any doubts on the heater but in case you have more questions you may email me to discuss further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Dr spa, Impossible 15000 gallons inside the attic, you are assuming an attic can hold 15000 gallons. ummmmmmmmmm, no, actually I was thinking 15,000 gallons of water pumped into the attic....... and flooding the entire house. I figured there wouldn't be any sheet rock left on the ceiling, so no, there wouldactually be no water actually remaining in the attic Like I said initially, I've never heard of this type of heating system. 3rd. The system has multiple safety measures built into the unit, including a leak detection which would trigger an auto system shut down. Well that prety much addresses my "concern" now, eh? Still, I'm not sure I'd want all that water being pumped through my attic. I recall years ago a customer had some plumbing repair done on their home on a Friday. New flex lines to the bathrom sink, or something. I met them at the home the following Monday. I arrived just as they did returning from their weekend getaway. The plumber got something wrong as one of the feed lines came lose or broke off. It was interesting, opening the front door, and having a 3' wave of water come rushing out of the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamessolar Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Wow a 3 foot wave of water thats incredible! Well like you said you don't really know us or how our safety features work in our product. I personally welcome you to contact us anytime for further discussion. You all have a wonderful day in this forum and if you have any questions please call. If you are in the pool industry look me up at the International Pool-Spa-Patio show in Vegas November of 2008 God Bless, James Kantorowicz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T V Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 James....can you shed some light on the question that started this whole thread....what would it take to pump up 2 or 3 stories to an attic? Also, my pump etc is on the other side of the pool from my house. What about that? I'm interested in this product. Thanks for your answers. T V wtvoigt@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CabanaBoy Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 James....can you shed some light on the question that started this whole thread....what would it take to pump up 2 or 3 stories to an attic? Also, my pump etc is on the other side of the pool from my house. What about that? I'm interested in this product. Thanks for your answers. T V wtvoigt@gmail.com I can't answer your question about pumping water up 2-3 stories but I can tell you I just recently installed solar collection panels and I am using them to heat our swimming pool. If you would like more information on how well they work you can read about it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strdnord Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 James....can you shed some light on the question that started this whole thread....what would it take to pump up 2 or 3 stories to an attic? Also, my pump etc is on the other side of the pool from my house. What about that? I'm interested in this product. Thanks for your answers. T V wtvoigt@gmail.com You will need a minimum 1 hp pump or any multi speed pump from Hayward would work great. Thank You James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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