jaredthomas27
-
Posts
14 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by jaredthomas27
-
-
1 hour ago, waterbear said:
1) do NOT correct the TA as outlined in the Taylor booklet. NOT necessary! @JWM6687 is correct, you only need to correct TA when calculaiting the Saturation Index and that is NOT applicable to acrylic tubs. If you have a plaster or tiled tub then you would need to worry about calcium and the saturation index.
2) if your pH remains stable and is not rising fast then your TA is fine. If it's rising fast then lower it. In most tubs this is between 50 and 70 ppm but it could even be lower in some situations. If your pH keeps crashing then your TA is too low, raise it 10 ppm and see how it goes.
3) the secondary borate buffer in the water will move the pH to around 7.9 and keep it there for an extended period. You don't need to lower it until it rises above 8.0
4) you are making this much harder than it is. Stop overthinking and if it's not broke don't try to fix it. Get your TA in range and don't try to lower pH until it rises above 8.0. When you lower pH don't go below 7.6! If you are using the acid demand test to determine how much acid to add then trust the test and add the full amount, no need to try to ":creep up" to your desired pH by adding only half the amount. You are only prolonging your pain!
5) read this, then reread it:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
Thank you for the insight. Yeah im definitely overthinking this. Appreciate all the help and direction!
-
1 hour ago, JWM6687 said:
Everyone's tub, water and treatment routines vary based on any number of factors. It wouldn't hurt to try a lower TA around 40 or so to see if that lets your PH settle and "lock" in under 8. When my TA gets down to 30 is when I see my PH really start dropping. Your tub might not start dropping until 20, but that's for you to find out 😅. TA buffers against PH drop, so maybe your water/chemical blend requires a lower TA buffer. Also wouldn't hurt to double check filter cycles/duration/aeration that can raise PH. Some further info you might find useful is this powerpoint from Bob Lowry that has a ton of info on PH buffers and borates.
https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.npconline.org/resource/resmgr/presentations/2020/Borates-Boric-Acid.pdf
TFP also has a wiki page on Borates you might find useful.
https://www.troublefreepool.com/wiki/index.php?title=Borates_in_pool
Just about everything I've learned on maintaining my tub comes for waterbear, chemgeek, and Lowry. They are all an absolute wealth of knowledge. Sometimes things are so complicated you need to have them explained three different ways to understand them 🙃.
I totally get it, thanks so much!
-
1
-
-
6 hours ago, JWM6687 said:
Again, I'm not the expert, but I believe corrected TA is only applicable when using the (Langelier) saturation index, which is not really applicable to acrylic hot tubs, and is used typically for pools (tiles, grout, gunite, etc.).
What is the uncorrected TA that you measured from the Taylor kit? I'm thinking you are up at 80 or 90 ppm, which might be too high of a TA for your water. TA buffers against PH drop. You most likely want to lower your TA down to the 50-70 range (uncorrected) so your PH will "lock" at a lower value.
Of course there could be other factors like extra aeration (leaving air jet features on or excessive filter cycles) that would cause increased PH.
I would suggest reading waterbear's post on lowering TA, as it has a ton of detailed information on this topic.
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
Thanks JWM6687, I have read that post and it has proven helpful. Uncorrected TA has been 60 and 70 depending on acid or baking soda additions. You think I should be lower than that?
-
Water is brand new, filled this weekend after a deep clean. I did the 3 step method from waterbear but am afraid i may have stopped the pH/TA portion a step to soon (pH at 7.9) and then added the borates. Retested just a minute ago and pH was up around 8.2 with corrected TA at 53. Using the acid demand and Taylor table I am adding 1oz (half the recommended 1.9 oz) of muriatic acid and will retest in about an hour. LIkely going to have to add baking soda to increase TA as im afraid it will drop significantly after this acid addition.
-
Good afternoon all. Have a question I am hoping to get clarification on please. I have 50 ppm of borates in my water via boric acid. Will that slow or stop my ability to lower my pH with muriatic acid? My TA got down to 48 (testing with K2106 drop test) accounting for the borate correction factor in the book and my pH is still hovering around 7.9-8.0 I have bumped my TA up to 88 with baking soda to give myself room to add more acid but I just added .5oz of acid and my pH remained unmoved. Could that be because of the borates? I am measuring pH with a calibrated Apera electric meter my wife uses for work for exact precision. I am running the 3 step Bromine. Thanks in advance!
-
5 hours ago, Ahhsomeguy said:
Hello Jaredthomas27: Eliminating Black Mold using the Ahhsome Hot Tub Plumbing & Jet Cleaner will be 100% effective. Be sure to follow the instructions for best results. You do not need to overdose. This gel is very potent. Add gel to hot water, place filter(s) in hot tub to just float on the water, open all air intake venturi's and run for 20 minutes. Based on the amount of mold you mention I do not feel you have to remove the jets and spend the extra time. Ahh-Some will find all the nooks and crannies and remove the mold and any additional biological particulates. Splash some of the Ahh-Some treated water on the cover top and bottom to remove anything colonizing you may not be aware of. Before draining after the first 20 minute purge be sure to wipe all the released detritus sticky goo at the waterline and above, especially in the filter well are? Add one or two additional LEVEL teaspoons of gel to the just purged and not yet drained water. Run the jets on high for an additional 5 minutes. If you get an additional release of gunk after this, wipe it up and add one LEVEL teaspoon of additional gel. Run for 5 minutes. You will typically not get any additional gunk released. Now, drain, wipe and rinse. Do NOT let any released gunk dry on the acrylic shell. Drain as much as yiu can. No need to vacuum out all the water. When you refill yiu may see a few floaters on day 1 or 2. No big deal with that. Wipe them away with a hand towel.
Balance the new water to levels recommended in this forum. It is a no brainer to use the Di-Chlor-Bleach method for sanitization. This is the best system for stand-alone hot tubs. Mold IS Formed when sanitizer levels are depleted for a period of time. Many other far worse bacteria than mold can also colonize rapidly. Maintaining a healthy hot tub is quite easy to do.
Balance the water, maintain adequate sanitizer using a reliable test kit (Not Strips), run filter for sufficient amount of time daily, clean filter(s) periodically, maintain cyanuric acid levels at 50 ppm maximum, keep the tub covered when not in use and PURGE every 4-6 months. You have to drain the hot tub after using any pipe cleaner or purge product. Sounds difficult but it is not. After a few months it will become second nature for you.
Thank you Ahhsomeguy! That is very helpful. I went to Family Leisure today to get water tested until the new kit arrives. Turns out CYA was 300+ ppm which is very high thus reducing the efficacy of the Chlorine. Likely due to me trying to over compensate with the Granular56. CYA was something I never knew about until I started reading this forum and researching so I really appreciate the folks in this forum. Depending on Kansas winter weather, hoping to get everything clean and redone here in the next few weeks.
-
1 hour ago, RDspaguy said:
I think he's talking about the "smartchlor" toilet bowl cleaner stuff.
I don't understand how it's supposed to work, (hell, I barely understand regular chlorine!😉) so am not a fan. Anything that complicates testing is not good in my opinion.
I am a fan of "minerals", but they do not reduce your need for chlorine. They do (slowly, like overnight) kill chlorine resistant contaminants, slow (or possibly halt) cellular division (the means by which pathogens reproduce and spread in a spa), and possibly slow the development of biofilm (a chlorine resistant pathogen farm in the pipes).
No studies have been done on that last bit that I know of, just an opinion based on my own observations. Maybe @Ahhsomeguyknows more on that subject. He knows everything else about biofilm.😉
And you most definitely want to use his product in your spa, repeatedly, until no new gunk comes out. Leave the filter floating in the spa. Black mold is tough to get rid of once it's got it's foot in the door. I'd suggest that you also remove the jet inserts and pillows, and soak in bleach water (or ahhsome). Also clean behind the jet and suction flanges with a toothbrush and bleach after draining.
I will definitely be doing all of that. Ordered some Ahhsome earlier today from Amazon. Getting a whole home filter and softener installed next Friday and will be doing the drain, clean (tub and cover) and refill after that. I havent noticed any mold under the water line itself so I am hoping its mostly contained outside of the water but will thoroughly clean anyways. Havent decided on Bromine or Dichlor/Bleach method yet but imagine I will need to add calcium to the water since the new water will be soft. You all have been awesome with information and I really appreciate all the input.
-
4 hours ago, waterbear said:
Nope, not true. It's a low chlorine system that uses silver ions. Silver has slow kill times and is ineffective against viruses and not real good at killing mold and mildew, as you have seen. The small amount of chlorine in your tub is being depleted quickly by the mold present effectively only leaving the silver, which is NOT an EPA approved sanitizer on it's own.
Thank you for all your input @waterbear, I will definitely be ditching the Frog and learning more about dichlor/bleach method to move forward with.
-
16 minutes ago, dashmer said:
I have not had to deal with black mold so I don't speak from experience but your plan looks pretty good but you could go a little further if you have the time.
For your cover, you could make up a solution of 20% bleach to water in a spray bottle and spray your cover all over before pressure washing it off.
I would replace the filter.
You should read the stickies at the top of this forum on the dichlor then bleach method, and/or the 3 step bromine system (if you decide to switch your sanitizer strategy.) There is also a decontamination process there that might be in order for your situation.
Good luck with the clean up.
Appreciate all your input!
-
1 hour ago, dashmer said:
Sorry but I don't know anything about the FROG system. Perhaps their concept of a "chlorine reserve" is just CYA, as @RDspaguy mentioned. My gut feeling is that you are running with too little Cl.
I personally use the dichlor then bleach method and it is great for me. The only downside is you cannot leave your tub for more than a few days without someone treating it.
Thanks for the input dashmer. If I decide to change my sanitation strategy, do you or anyone here recommend a "restart" process to get my tub back to square one? I assume I would need to do the following:
1. Take the cover sleeve off and sanitize/power wash off the mold
2. Clean the mold off the lights and valves with bleach
3. Pull filter and clean
4. Shock water, then drain and fill
Do you have any other suggestions in starting over so I dont carry this issue into the future?
Thank you!
-
34 minutes ago, dashmer said:
What is your free chlorine reading in PPM right before you use your tub each time?
You notionally need about 7 ppm of free chlorine to oxidize bather waste per bather hour. That does not necessarily leave a residual chlorine to sanitize and keep black mold away. In your description you are adding about 4 ppm (in a 360 gal tub) after each use (of an undisclosed duration).
Maybe this is my issue because I haven't been testing that since the "Frog System" seems to not require it. I will post a picture below of the test strip guide that the system uses. Apparently, according to the frog system, it will maintain 0.5-1.0 ppm of free chlorine and then the free chlorine will increase as needed when this is paired with the mineral float. Does that make any sense at all? This is all according to their manual...Is this system just crap and I need to go back to a more basic/standard(not sure thats the right word) maintenance strategy?
NOTE: Why FROG @ease Test Strips? The FROG @ease SmartChlor Cartridge forms a chlorine reserve that will be inaccurately measured as total chlorine on other test strips. Unlike conventional chlorine, the SmartChlor reserve readily shifts to free chlorine as needed, maintaining spa health with a low level of chlorine -
These ranges are on the @EASE Frog system test strips
Hardness: Between 150-250ppm
PH: 7.5
TA: 100ppm
Chlorine: Is darker than the "smartchlor out indicator" w/ the Frog System
Tub get used by me about 3 times a week and I always add .3 oz of Granular56 when I get out and will shock with 1oz of Granular56 once a month. I generally do a water chem test 3 times a week and I am usually having to add PH increaser to it throughout the week as needed. I do a half drain every 2 months and change/wash filter about once a month.Let me know if I can provide more info! THanks so much!
-
Hi everyone, hope you're having a great day. Long story short, I am struggling with some kind of mold/mildew outside of the water in my tub (valves, lights, cover, etc). I have had 2 other hot tubs in Kentucky and Colorado and never had this issue (currently in Kansas). I use the @EASE Frog floating ball and have been keeping hardness, alk, chlorine, PH in correct range. I have pulled the cover off the foam of the cover and bleached & power washed it and have scrubbed (with bleach) the lights and valve controls as well just to have the mold come back. I am literally lost here. I am buying a whole house water filter in a couple weeks to maybe help as well. Has anyone had experience with this before? Please ask questions too, I have likely missed some details and I am no professional. Appreciate the help!!
pH and Borates
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Hahaha yeah my wife has been calling it my chemistry experiment, thats funny. She knows my OCD makes me dive headfirst into this kind of stuff. Jokes aside, I really appreciate you all's input, help, and plethora of information on this forum!