Aric

Well the thread title says, "Owners Only" Can we rename the thread?

Ok I'm not getting in the middle of this, but I wanted to point out to some of the people talking about how losing power for more than a day is "unheard of" You weren't in St. Louis a winter ago. I had friends who where without power well over a week. Now it might not have been as cold as 20 average, but it was cold. Most had gas heaters, but the blowers required power to move the heat. Most ended up moving out of their house for several days and stayed at friends/family/hotels.

[quot name=Trigger' date='Jun 14 2007, 09:42 AM' post='28618] I just find it interesting that it's being called "bashing" when the short commings of a $3900 spa are measured against other spas. Why is it bashing ? There are a couple of folks here who say "For the money spent I am a happy". and then there are others who claim you could piss in a costco tub and in the morning it will be champage. If you disagree you are accused of bashing. [/quot] Wow, well, first I've never heard the piss = champange thing, but let's see. This is an owners only thread yet non-owners keep posting in here. Not respecting the thread creator and posting off topic (if it says only owners, and you are a non-owner an post, that's off topic) seems like abuse to me. (no I'm not an owner so I'm violating this too.) In this thread, http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6561 the first reply was a snippy comment about dealer support from costco. That IMHO is bashing. Now Trigger, I'm not going after you personally because I've seen you post helpful stuff too, but let's call bashing what it is.

If you can afford concrete, it's the way to go. If you don't want to do that I'd recommend pavers or this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5301138 I've talked to people who only compressed the dirt and then put down pea type gravel before putting the hot tub in. They were happy and it seemed to work, but I'd always be worried about any unevenness.

Here's a pre delivery document from Costco. Not for your brand of spa specifically. http://www.costco.com/Images/Content/Misc/PDF/999704.pdf Other options are pavers or this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5301138 I personally would recomend the concrete, however, reinfoced steel concrete?? Are you kidding? That's overkill. The concrete under your driveway isn't even steel reinforced and it has to take a lot more weight and worse, varying/moving loads. (a weight example, assume a spa produces 110lbs per sq ft of weight when filled with water... well a large SUV produces over 1,000 lbs of weight per tire and each tire takes up less than a sq ft.)

Does your warranty cover leaks for 5 years? If so you're fine. If you're out of warranty....

My cover, in which I described cutting drain holes did not have a vapor barrier. cman, I'd be curious to know if yours does. If not, try my fix first.

Actually you can extend the life of your cover a couple years by cutting a couple of small drain holes in the bottom. Most likely on the bottom of your cover you already have drain holes, but due to sagging over the years, they are no longer at the lowest point. Just cut some small circles or square holes with a sharp knife at the lowest points, and that water will drain out. When I say small I mean like half the size of a dime. You can also try to unzip your cover, remove and flip over the pads. That will often make a sagging cover flat again and allow the water to drain out as intended. BTW I posted a more detailed post previously about how to cut the holes in the bottom of the cover, and it literally disappeared from this thread. I can't imagine why?

[quoth]10 x 12 Material Gazebo.[/quoth] They are throwing in a Gazebo? And is Material, wood? So you'll have to refinish it every year?

[quoth] Yep exactly! However, if you look at the Maax Elite website...www.elitespasbymaax.com it clearly states ALL of their Elite Spas have the same construction; it doesn't say the Entourage is different apart from the jets, pump and options avail. That's what I take issue with, that they are misleading at best and not giving consumers clear information to make a decision. [/quoth] I agree. Also, I was still considering a Coleman, but if the company that owns those three brands behaves this way...well, I think I'll skip them.

WOW. I just pulled the pics from the website! Those ARE the exact same spas except the control panel and the filter cover. How did you notice that?! ------------------------- Colemans California cooperage model 106 ---------------------- Entourage

I pointed this out in another thread, but according to this review (notice it's undated, so maybe useless) you should be able to get a Maxxus for $7,000 Most likely that review is outdated. It also looks like some itemst hat used to be options are now included standard, which would drive up the price.

According to this review (notice it's undated, so maybe useless) you should be able to get a Maxxus for $7,000

Perhaps when walmart took over all retail. Or maybe when expensive items like computers and DVD players which offer far more functionality than their equivalents did 10 years ago become disposable commodities. Yep, I also grew up in a snobby neighborhood. I would be nice if we could get away from picking on people who are less fortunate. America likes to haggle and bargain shop. If it didn't, garage sales wouldn't exist. That's a reasonable question for a consumer to ask. It also opened the door to offer her a 10% discount (if you wanted) to make her feel like she was getting a better deal than the average Joe which is all many consumers are looking for. In general, informed shoppers always expect to pay a little less than MSRP since they consider themselves a little better than the average person (I'm not average, I'm above average, therefore, I shouldn't pay an average price.) Is that an ok attitude to have? Maybe, I'm just saying a lot do. No assume it's a bargaining tactict. Let's see how you handled it… Reasonable, however, she wasn't involved in choosing your business plan. I would push more, because I have a real store, you can get it sooner, don't have to worry about shipping, can return it/get support if needed which is all consumer benefits because you chose a brink and mortar business model, instead of discussing the financial negatives to owning a brick and mortar store. Good. Can't argue with that. That's gotta' be worth real money to the customer, no question. This would've been my first response. Yep. Would that mean coming out and replacing it? That would be another direct benefit to the consumer. If you would only allow the replacement of the item, the consumer could argue the web store would warranty the item to that extent. To me warranty the item simply means sending it DOA to the manuf. and giving out a new one, which the web store would do too. But if you mean traveling back out, and replacing it, that's a huge value add to the consumer. Fare enough, but I've worked with local dealers who I've had to report to the State Attorney General just to get them to satisfy the originally workability of the item, so the consumer can't just assume you'll provide workability over the web based store This statement was the one that led me to reply. I know people who work for Amazon.com. Amazon.com sells some pool/spa equipment. The people I know who work there don't work under the conditions you described. More so, I've seen brick and mortar spa stores close up shop in a single day, where as Amazon.com would be hard pressed to simply disappear. This last comment was the least rational. It sounds like you are jealous of people who are able to make money running legitimate businesses over the web. Was the price this person got quoted and from where, a reputable web site? I don't know but to make a generalization like that is pretty short sighted. I don't think most people feel this in general, and if so not about a sweeper in their pool. I do have pride when I get a good deal. Maybe people are becoming less materialistic. I peronsally have pride of ownership in my home theater equipment, and that's about it. She had the courage to challenge your price and try to haggle you down. Is there other courage in a business negotiation? Fair enough. The idea of haggling, in general is bad manners. I won't argue that. It has, however, become pretty normal. I've seen places like Best Buy and Sam's Club even mark things down when someone haggles (and I figured corporate places like that couldn't alter prices.) It's usually just 10% or so, but it is becoming more common. Poor manners, yeah, probably. Was she rude? Personally as a consumer I think I have the right to know dealer cost on anything I buy. Was she provided with that info? As an example, cars are expensive items we don't buy often. I can go on the internet, find MSRP and dealer invoice cost before I purchase the car so I know that info. I don't expect the dealer to sell the car to me without making any money so I know I'll pay over invoice (assuming there is no hold back or incentives involved) but I also don't expect the dealer to make the large MSRP profit off of my sale either. Most car salespeople I know tell me they make most of their money off of one or two sales where the consumer is uninformed and they don't negotiate any discounts. I don't want to be that person they brag about over a been the next night. Perhaps the tactics of car salespeople have spoiled it for everyone in the reatil business. Consumers looking for spas are at more of a disadvantage because they don't have an easy resource of finding out invoice costs. Is it rude to ask dealer cost? I don't think so. Is it rude to ask for a price less than MSRP? I don't think so. I have no problem with someone making a profit off of me. They should make a profit off of every sale. However, I do think I have a right to know how much they are making off of me and possibly negotiate that. Buying something is a business transaction with some contractual obligations. It seems like in a business relationship you should be able to ask for information without being thought of as rude. Um, ok. Seems pretty tangent. Anyway, I do think we should laugh at ourselves. And I agree with you it's frustrating to work with someone who can't have fun. Wow, did this woman go off on a political tirade? She must've touched a nerve. Anyway, I think a lot of people need more of a sense of humor, not sure it has to do with politics. I don't think we did. I think you base your language on your audience. The problem is some people underestimate (or overestimate) their audience and use language not appropriate for them. What did you just say about the inability to express ourselves using clean language? I guess we have lost it then. Yes I consider both "nappy headed" and "ho" to be words/phrases I wouldn't use around my children.

Sam's club appears to offer spas from different manuf. They have two that look similar, a Harmony and a Tranquility. They have one called an Oasis, that may be made by the same company. Then they have some really cheap looking ones called Maui and Bahama that look made by the same company. Lastly they have a Members Mark M45 which they say is "Manufactured by the industry’s leading spa producer" (the domed foot massager does look familiar) Anyway, just curious. Looks like about 3 different manuf. there.

You mean here? new products Didn't see any chemical with Color in the name.

Well, when you turn every pump on to full do they appear to be working? Leave them all on full blast for a while. Low Flow is most common if the water level has dropped below the strainer and air is getting sucked into the strainer. It can also indicate a bad flow sensor. I've also seen it when a pump has gone out, and even though the computer tells it to pump nothing is happening. That's easy to see though, because no water comes out the jets when you turn that pump on. Did you fill the hot tub with water through the filter inlet?

Understood, but I'd like to point out, my spa water was always sanitary, whereas that serving tray that had thanksgiving turkey slices on it for several hours and stayed in the sink overnight because the dishwasher was full, but went in the next night probably was crawling with deadly bacteria. Of course, the serving tray didn't have long strands of blonde hair in it, which my filter did.

Most important, IMHO: 1) What is the warranty time for pumps and heaters and jets and leaks and is there is any pro-rating as time passes (should be 100% coverage for full time of the warranty and not less than 5 years on components.) 2) What's the max temp on the thermostat? 3) Who's the owner of the retail store and how often is he in the store? 4) Do you do the warranty work/installs/delivery and if not who do you use? 5) Is the cabinet synthetic/no-maintenence? Price/negotiation specific: 1) Are steps included 2) Is lifter included 3) Does warranty cover the cover 4) What starter chemicals do I get for free 5) Do you include the circuit connection hardware (a 50A 240V GFI circuit breaker is around $150 min.) Installation/delivery 1) Do I need 50A or 60A 240V GFI? 2) What do I need for a foundation? Is gravel enough? 3) Do you do electrical hookup on delivery? 4) How quickly once I purchase can you deliver this model? 5) Does delivery include only curbside? If you are specifically asking what specs to compare (your example implies that) I'd say... 1) Height/Depth (I found 33 inches to be a bit shallow and look for 35 inches or higher) 2) Ozonator and type 3) Gallons 4) Can both pumps and heater run at the same time (can all jets run at the same time)? 5) Seating capacity (and layout, do you want a lounger?) 6) Max temp. you can dial in on the thermostat? I think 104 as a max is ok, but some want 108. 7) Number of jets 8) Are the drains in the side, requiring bailing to empty all the way, or in the bottom? 9) Are the filters dishwasher safe? 10) Can you show me the hose hookup for draining to get an idea of how easy it is to hook up/access? Ok, I went way over 5 sorry. Choose which ones are most important to you. Things I don't really care about: 1) Colors available (Hot Springs, for example, you can't pick a color for the shell if you choose Espresso for the cabinet color... grrr) so color isn't usually a driving factor for me, maybe to others. 2) LED lighting available (Ok, I'll take it, but it wouldn't be something I'd base a decision on) 3) Stereo system available 4) Water features available (rather not have these) 5) Consumer Digest's Best Buy (or similar questionable qualifications) 6) Does it have a blower? (I personally want the answer to be NO)

Uh, doesn't this argument support the idea that having dealer support DOESN'T help? I mean, you could get this level of support buying from CostCo right?

Now that everyone seems to be saying put it in the dishwasher with some dishwasher detergent, I may just go that route. Better than spending 15 minutes power washing the blessed thing. But I'll never go back to acid washing/soaking with filter cleaner.

Worst case scenario you'll end up in small claims court. But you have already made some mistakes. First of all I live in Arizona so I can't say how your state laws are, but it is legal to record phone conversations in this state, as long as one party involved in the conversation knows it's being recorded (i.e. you would know because you are recording it.) I'd recommend in the future recording all phone conversations. I record them to my iPod for situations like this. Second, if you used a credit card and are within 90 days of purchase put the charge in dispute, now. Even if you are outside of the 90 days, you can request a dispute, although the credit card company can deny it. Lastly contact your state attorney general and let them know that the dealer has sold you a spa and been unable to make it work and you want their assistance in getting your money back. Make your letter only one page long (the smaller the better), but do include copies of all invoices, work orders, receipts, etc. You could CC Arctic spas on the letter as well, but that probably won't do too much good. Good luck, and report back.

If the manuf. says 60amps then use 60amps. For fun though, let's do the math. You mention two 5hp motors. That's about 7,500 watts of power, or at 240volts about 31 amps. Now your heater is going to take some power too, but that's still under 50 amps. Anyway, I had a 2 pump spa and could run the pumps and the heater at the same time on a 50 amp gfi breaker. But that's all my manuf. called for in the specs too. Do make sure to get a good quality breaker. False GFI or over amp shutoffs will drive you nuts!

Ok, bound to be a controversial thread here... Most on this board say the most important thing about buying a spa is the dealer support. Hmmm Perhaps my experience was different than normal. I bought a Coleman spa 8+ years ago. When it needed warranty service the first time, the dealer gave me the name and number of the factory authorized repair person for my area. I called. They'd come out. They'd fix it. They'd leave. No charge. After the first time, I never called the dealer, just the repair people, when I needed service. Usually got a 3 day turn around, and usually had the parts in the truck (when it was just a jet that stopped spinning or adjusting.) We did replace a pump around the 4th year, and I do think that may have taken another two days to get. So the dealer didn't matter for support. Can someone explain how much different their warranty support would be if they had or did not have "dealer support"?

Yes, that's been my experience too. Sometimes, you can find a different salesperson at the same store who is less obnoxious. When I bought my first spa (a Coleman) they had a store near me and one about 20 miles from me. The sales lady was so obnoxious at the first store, I drove to the further one, dealt with the owner of both stores, and was happy. I know it's very strange. It's even worse than the Mac/Windows debate. BTW don't tell someone who doesn't like loungers that you like loungers, or they'll bite your head off! I agree with that.