waterbear
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Posts posted by waterbear
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First, I am moving this post to the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum, which is a more appropriate place.
Second, why in the world did you put vinegar in your spa? Vinegar (5% acetic acid) has NO place in spa water chemistry! (There are some common household items that are used in spa water chemistry such as baking soda, which is what is sold as TA increaser, washing soda which is sold at pH up, liquid chlorine bleach which is the same as liquid chlorine but at about half the strength, and borax which is used as a water conditioner and to raise pH without having a major impact on TA. However, vinegar has no use in spa water care!)
Post a set of test results and list all the chemicals you have added to your spa since you drained and refilled such as the type of chlorine (dichlor, cal hypo, liquid chlorine, bleach, etc.), and any other chemicals you added (sodium bicarbonate or TA increaser, metal sequestrant, clairifier, pH up or pH down, etc.)
If you have visible algae then you will not have chlorine in the water. Are you even testing your water?
I would also recommend reading the pinned posts at the top of this section (Hot Tub Water Chemistry) of the forum.
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It really depends on just how hard your fill water is. Post a set of test results on your fill water for calcium hardness, total alkalinity, and pH and we can take it from there.
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Post a full set of test results. It will tell us what you need to do next. Also pictures of the water and filter would be helpful.
Also, exactly what chemicals did you put in when you initially started with bromine and when you redrained and switched to chlorine?
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Pool stores need fast tests and the software they use is set up to maximize product sales. Strip readers still depend on strips which, while they will produce results that are repeatable on multiple tests on the same sample (precise results), don't necessarily produce results that are close to the true value (accurate results). Several of the tests on strips are time dependent and if not read at the right moment will produce off results. Personally, I have found that strips tend to read low on pH and if you look at the precision for alkalinity is it often +/- 40 ppm which is useless for balancing water and the hardness test is for total hardness, not calcium hardness (a limitation of what can be tested by strips) and once again, a useless test for water balancing, ,IMHO.
1 hour ago, THE DUDE said:They don't test for CYA but do a TDS
Not testing for CYA is not surprising. That way they can continue to sell you dichlor even thought the tub is overstabilized. It is a fact that the higher the CYA the higher you need to run FC to achieve the same level of sanitation and oxidation. This has been known since the 1960s but has been suppressed by the industry, especially companies that produce stabilized chlorine, since it would cut into their bottom line.
As far as TDS, it's a bogus measurement to explain why there is a sanitation breakdown because of 'old water' instead of blaming it on high CYA. IF TDS actually was a problem then every salt pool or spa would not work and would have major problems from the moment the salt is added.
Interesting fact, the 'cure' for high TDS is exactly the same as for high CYA, a partial or complete drain and refill.
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My advice is to contact a licensed electrician.
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There are several pinned threads at the top of this section that will help you with your chemical problems. I would start with this one.
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
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have you checked the gasket in the backwash valve? It probably needs changing.
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Once again, You posted in a 15 year old thread. Please start a new thread with your question for a better chance of getting it answered. This thread is now locked.
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I am moving your post into the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum.
Guardex super oxidizer is MPS (Potassium monopersulfate) which is a non chlorine shock. It is unnecessary with a bromine system, you can just use a chlorine source such as laundry bleach. Why are you adding baking soda (Alkalinity up) and washing soda (pH up) at the same time? pH up is usually never needed in a tub. Do you have an initial test on your fill water? If not why are you adding chemicals? If you have not tested the fill water you don't know what might need adjusting. Are you using bromine tablets in a floater and have you added sodium bromide to create your bromine bank? Why did you add clarifier? Unless there is a problem clarifiers are normally not needed and can create problems of their own, depending on which chamicals they contain.
Read and study these pinned posts:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/
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You posted in a 15 year old thread. Please start a new thread with your question for a better chance of getting it answered.
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SM but nit really surprised
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Nature 2 with MPS in HOT water is a sanitizer but does need chlorine as a shock weekly. Nature 2 with chlorine is unnecessary as long as the FC is kept at the proper level for the CYA content. AS far as types of chlorine go, the 2 stabilized forms of chlorine, diclor and tricnlor, add CYA at the rate of 9 ppm for every 10 ppm FC added (dichlor) or 6 ppm for every 10 ppm FC added (trichlor). Dichlor is a fast dissolving chlorine that is net acidic so it will deplete TA and quickly overstabilize the water. Trichlor is an extremely acidic, slow dissolving chlorine sourse that will also overstabilize but not as quickly as dichlor. Because of it's extreme acidity and the small amount of water in a tub compared to a pool it is not recommended for tubs since the water can become very acidic quickly which could result in damage. Unstabilized chlorine sources are net pH neutral. Calcium hypochlorite is a slow dissolving chlorine that will add 7 ppm calcium hardness for every 10 ppm FC added. If your water is on the soft side it's a good choice as long as you are doing water replacement (drain and refill) every 3 months and you don't let your pH go above 8.9 or you could lend up with scale deposits in the tub.
As far as the N2 is concerned, it doesn't care which form of chlorine you use. Once the chlorine is dissolved in water it becomes sodium hypochlorite (liquid chlorine) so using bleach with the N2 is fine.
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Less water also means more water maintenance, more frequent water changes, and less forgiving if your sanitation routine slips a bit. Bottom line, the larger the volume of water, the easier the water maintenance.
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Make and model would be a good starting point.
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Since a solution has been found and posted in this thread for the original issue I am locking it.
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18 hours ago, HighProof said:
but as a seasoned forum user, of many subjects
Not in this forum since you have a grand total of 13 posts here and have been a member here for slightly over a year.
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13 hours ago, HighProof said:
Please no. This issue has been clearly identified and a few solutions posted. The thread may be old, but clearly we're still monitoring.
If a new post is created it will get a greater chance of getting seen by more members. Perhaps you missed that I am a forum moderator. Perhaps if all the people that have had the same problem as the OP started new threads your problem might have been solved. One never knows but a new thread for a question will get more exposure than tacking on to an old thread.
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6 hours ago, THE DUDE said:
C-16
I added another 2 teaspoons to drop ph back down to 7.6, it had climbed back up to 7.8
NO NO NO. YOu cannot test pH when sanitizer is high (over 10 ppm) because of an interaction between the chlorine and the phenol red indicator. It will convert to chlorphenol red and will read much higher than the actual pH.
7 hours ago, THE DUDE said:CYA= looks to have gone back down around to 45 if i am guessing between 40 and 50. Didn't think it would drop like that??
It doesn't. You must have made a measurement error. When reading the CYA tube hold it at waist level in open shade.
7 hours ago, THE DUDE said:TA=90
too high, you want this at 50 to 70 ppm for best pH stability
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
7 hours ago, THE DUDE said:I had what looked like a white grease smear on the blue ends of the filter.
probably precipitated calcium carbonate. A little bit is nothing to worry about. Usually happens at high pH and TA or if you add calcium and baking soda (TA increaser) at the same time
On 11/24/2023 at 6:17 PM, THE DUDE said:CYA -85
Too high
7 hours ago, THE DUDE said:CYA= looks to have gone back down around to 45 if i am guessing between 40 and 50
CYA scale is logarithmic, not linear, so you cant interpolate between markings accurately. Still too high. Should be around 30 ppm with FC maintained at 3-5 ppm. With your CYA at 50 ppm you need to maintain FC at 4-6 ppm. At 85 ppm CYA it needs to be 6 to 10 ppm for trhe same sanitizing ability
7 hours ago, THE DUDE said:CH=190
This reading is good.
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@Jdramz You posted in a thread that is over two years old. You will have a much better chance of getting your question answered if you start a new thread with your question
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No, I don't work for Taylor Technologies nor do I get any kind of kickback. It's just that they make the best test kits at competative porices. LaMotte , Palintest, and Hach are other good companies but their kits are either more expensive or don't test all the needed parameters or both.
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48 minutes ago, claus said:
. I thought by buying the spa that can do ozone and uv light to kill bacteria i could use less.
Not really, Chlorine is a fast acting RESIDUAL sanitizer, meaning that it stays in the water. Ozone and UV only kill what is in the reaction chamber and not in the body of the water. Realize that every bather adds feces, urine and sweat (chemically almost identical to urine) into the water along with bacteria and viruses so a fast acting residual sanitizer is needed. Frog@ease, Nature 2, and other "mineral" sanitizers use silver ions from silver nitrate or silver chloride. Silver is NOT a fast acting sanitzer vbut it is residual and does not have action against viruses. It's an excellent algaecide, however (normally algae is not a problem in tubs since they are usually kept covered). `
10 hours ago, claus said:My wife will not use it if it smells like a majorly chlorinated pool.
You are smelling combined chlorine (chloramines) Chlorine has very little smell. The cure for combined chlorine is more chlorine.
11 hours ago, claus said:How do I bring down the ALK?
Acid lowers both pH and alkalinity. The trick is to bring the pH back up without raising the alkalinity. It's not very hard but you are going to need to invest in a good test kit and ditch the strips. They are worthless for balancing water and are not precise. Get a Taylor K-2006 test kit (Not the K-2005) from Amazon or another online retailer of pool/spa products (it's worth every penny!), watch the videos on the Taylor Technology website to learn how to use the kit, don't use the Fog system or Nature 2 (Expen$ive and a waste of money, and read these posts:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/
and finally:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/
The last thread makes it sound harder than it is and when I have the time I will make a new one that is much easier to understand and eliminates some of the unnecessary (IMHO) steps such as checking CD (chlorine demand). hOWEVER, it will give you an overview of starting a tub on dichlor until the CYA reaches about 30 ppm then switching to laundry bleach or liquid pool chlorine (same thing but different strengths) to continue chlorination without adding more CYA until you drain and refill (every 32 to 4 months is recommended no matter what sanitizer you use) and you start over again. Post any further questions and I will be glad to help., A spa is easy to take care of but you do need the proper tools and the right chemicals. Many of the chemicals you need can be found at the grocery store, btw. For example total alkalinity increaser is nothing more than Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate AKA Sodium Bicarbonate AKA Bicarbonate of Soda AKA Baking Soda. pH increaser is Sodium Carbonate AKA Washing Soda (in the laundry aisle) but a much better choice is Sodium Borate Decahydrate AKA Borax (also in the laundry aisle) which will raise pH with minimal effect on TA.
First, you need a good test kit that will give you accurate results with the precision needed to balance the water (for example, the TA test in the Taylor kit has a precision of +/-10 ppm with a 25 ml water sample while the vast majority of strips have a precisoin of +/- 40 ppm or worse. 10 ppm alkalinity can mean the difference between a pH stable spa and one that needs constant attention.
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There are many online pool/spa retailers that sell the K-2006 and I know of many that have ordered from Amazon with no problems. I just read the one star and two star reviews and the ones that said it was missing reagents are confusing this kit with the K-2005 which uses three liquid reagents for DPD chlorine testing while the K-2006 uses the far superior FAS-DPD test method which uses a powder and a liquid reagent . The one that was comparing this kit to strips, which do not provide the resolution of this kit only illustrated that the strips are not a dependable testing method, which is well known and documented.
As far as missing or expired reagents, there were reviews where the buyer contacted Amazon and was given a refund.
As far as the kit being too complicated, Taylor Technologies has many videos and helpful tips on their website and they have excellent technical support.
Some of the other negative comments on problems with the FAS-DPD test indicate that their chlorine levels were too high for the test to measure. Both DPD testing and FAS-DPD testing can bleach out at high sanitizer levels (can occur after shocking or the use of non chlorine shock) but FAD-DPD testing will not bleach out as quickly and can tolerate much higher sanitizer levels before exhibiting problems.
In other words, most of the negative comments are based on user ignorance. I find the funniest ones are the ones complaining that there are no instructions on how to do the tests. The instructions are permanently attached to the inside of the lid!
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24 minutes ago, dana hatch said:
I have well water that runs through a softener. The water sees okay until I start testing and adding PH etc based on testing. Then the water clouds up
Doesn't sound like bacteria. Sounds more like a water balance issue. Please post a full set of test results (sanitizer, pH, total alkalinity, CH, and, if you are using chlorine, the cyanuric acid (stabilizer). You said you are filling with softened water so I assume you are adding calcium and you said the problem starts when you adjust the pH (are you raising it or lowering it?) when the problem occurs. Clouding can occur if the water is not balanced in the correct order if you have high calcium and high pH and high alkalinity which can cause calcium carbonate to precipitate out of the water causing the water to cloud.
As I said, post a full set of test results (preferably NOT done with strips) and we can take it from there.
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double post, thread locked.
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Bullfrog EOS, Wellspring or NO Ozone on a new 2023 A6L for best experience with keeping water and chemicals balanced?
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
After reading it post any questions you might have.
There are only 4 EPA approved residual sanitizers for hot tubs in the US (3 for swimming pools). They are chlorine, bromine, and biguinide/peroxide for pools and spas and the 4th for spas is silver/MPS/hot water (Nature 2 used with MPS.) The high temperature of a spa is necessity for this combo to have residual sanitizer action but it has slower kill times than the other sanitizers and is not effective against viruses so it is not one I normally recommend. However there are others on here that use it and recommend it ( @RDspaguy )whos opinions I respect.
Anything else is considered an alternative sanitizer and this list includes Ozone, UV, ionizers (except for the Nature2 mentioned above), and " magic in a bottle" products that don't really tell you what is in them or how they actually work but promise that you only need to add their product to have clean, clear water (sanitized water is often never mentioned or the small print will say that it needs to be used with chlorine, bromine, and/or other EPA approved residual sanitizer.
Some of these are not residual (UV, Ozone), some have very slow kill times and some plain just don't work. Clear water does not alway mean safe water. Be aware that every bather introduced feces, urine, and swear (chemically similar to urine) into the water no matter how clean they THINK they are, Pseudomonas infection (hot tub itch), Mycobacterium avium complex (hot tub lung), Legionnaires’ disease, and other waterborne illnesses such as Cryptosporidium, E. coli, and protozoal infections such as Giardia are very real but maintaining proper fast acting residual sanitizer in a tub or pool is an effective way to prevent them, as is showering off before going in the water and NEVER going in the water when you have diarrhea.