waterbear

Sodium carbonate will raise your pH and send your TA through the roof. Unless you are using an acidic sanitizer you will have problems with your pH going too high. A better way to bring up the pH is to use sodium tetraborate decahydrate (20 mule team borax from the Laundry aisle in the green and white box) at twice the dose of sodium carbonate. This will raise pH without a major impact on TA. However, first I would like to know how you are testing the water. IF you are using strips they are very inaccurate. What sanitizer are you using and what other chemicals are you adding? Posting a full set of test results not done with strips would also be very useful to help us understand what is going on and why your pH is low (if it is actually low and not just an inaccurate reading from strips.)

You will most likely need new filters because one a halogen hits the biguinide residue it will form goo. When you refill you will have to oxidize any remaining biguinide in the plumbing. I suggest chlorine. If there is biguinide present the FC won't hold. Keep adding chlorine (I suggest bleach) until you can hold a free chlorine level of 10 ppm. Then drain, purge, and refill with new filters and start your bromine.

What RDspaguy said. Once we have some more information we can take it from there. From your email address it looks like you might be in the industry. I can see it because I am a moderator. Are you a service tech or a CPO by any chance?

The salt you are using is sodium sodium bromide, which generates hypobromous acid (bromine sanitizer). Chlorine based salt systems use sodium chloride to generate hypochlorous acid (chlorine sanitizer). These are the same santiziers that form in the water from other sources of bromine or chlorine such as bromine tabs or dichlor granules . The In.Clear system can only be used with sodium bromide. Second, how are you testing your water? This tells us nothing, We need the actual test result numbers to get some idea what is going on. Please post a full set of test results NOT done with test strips. They are useless for balancing water. Third, Please list all products you are using in the water (shocks and their composition, water balanacers, etc. While bromine can be a sensitizer for some individuals it is not common and it usually does not appear after several months. If it does turn out to be a bromine sensitivity then switching to chlorine and not using your Salt Water Bromine generator will solve the problem since chlorine is not a known sensitizer, but you will have to dose the chlorine manually. There are other things that can cause an itchy rash and the most common is called "hot tub rash" or "hot tub Folliculitis" caused by the germ Pseudomonas aeruginosa. caused by improperly santized water. This is why we need actual test numbers. Here is more information: https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/swimming/swimmers/rwi/rashes.html Another common source of a rash from hot tub water is the use of MPS (Potassium Monopersulfate) as a shock. Persulfates are known sensitizers and dermal irritants. By using bleach or dichlor as a shock after a fresh fill will solve the problem and chlorine will convert to hypobromous acid in the presence of sodium bromide. This is how both 2 step and 3 step manual bromination work. This is an enzyme product Enzymes are not santizers and will not allow you to run lower sanitzer levels. Here is a quote from their instructions from their website: "Add sanitizer as per your professional spa retailer’s guide­lines." Where enzymes might be useful is in removing biofilm during a purge procedure. However, from what I have seen posted in this forum, the most effective and popular purge product is Ahh-some. So, please post a full set of test results and a list of all products added to the water and we can take it from there. Also, I am going to split your post into its own thread so it will have a better chance of being seen.

totally missed that! It could be from clarifier.

Different color of blue. Do you use a copper based algaecide or have an ionizer system by any chance? Also how are you testing pH?

I have a few ideas as to what might be happening but first post a full set of test results and how they were obtained (strips either read against a color chart or in a machine, drop based kit with liquid reagents, dealer/pool store testing with a meter, etc) and we can take it from there.

If the sand has metal stains it is probably better to replace it This is why you want to use a fiber filter aid so it will backwash out if it stains.

If you were using 2 step bromine it means you need to add oxidizer more often. IF 3 step it means the floater is not open enough. In either case it could also mean that you did not create your bromide reserve on filling. It can also mean that the spa needs a decontamination. These are the usual causes assuming the other water parameters are balanced. Basically it means that your bromine levels are either low or depleting quickly and the usual cause is improper water maintenance.

MPS does not precipitate (scientific term) out of solution, calcium can, particularly if the TA is also high and pH rises, not uncommon in hot tubs. However, cloudy water ususally means bacterial bloom because of understanitized water which is not uncommon with 'mineral' systems, ionizers, or overstabilized (high CYA) water from exclusive use of dichlor as a chlorine source. Remember, the water to bather ratio in a tub is small so there is not a lot of 'forgiveness' when bather load is high and every person entering the tub adds feces, urine, and sweat (which is chemically similar to urine) to the tub no matter how clean they THINK they are!

You can continue to use your Taylor test kit with the Frog@ ease, just test FC and not CC. Also, if you are shocking with MPS, you need to add the Taylor MPS interference remover kit to get accurate chlorine readings. Not sure if it will work properly when using SmartChlor but you you can contact Taylor directly and ask. https://www.taylortechnologies.com/en/page/141/eliminating-interference-from-potassium Better yet, stop the MPS. FWIW, I could find nothing on King Technology's website or in any of their manuals for Frog@ease that recommends shocking. That is the point of their proprietary chlorine source and, to the best of my knowledge, they are the only ones using dimethlyhydantion stabilized chlorine as a primary sanitizer.

You are correct that the Jump Start is diclor, along with citric acid and 'inert ingredients' (my guess is baking soda so it effervesces when the citric acid and the baking soda dissolve). However, the point you are missing is that it is added BEFORE the Frog@ease with the SmartChlor is put into the tub to create the initial FC level. Once dissolved in the water you have hypochlorite ions and a very small amount CYA. SmartChlor is a stabilized chlorine that uses dimethyhydantion to stabilize the chlorine instead of CYA and it works differently since it tests as mostly combined chlorine and releases the FC slowly and at a very reduced rate to maintain a .5 to 1 ppm FC level in the ater. A stabilized chlorine source like dichlor is not added continuously after the initial fill as normal maintenance or shocking along with the SmartChlor and whether there are any adverse affects on water sanitation with the continued addition of CYA is an unknown since King does not publish that data but their website and instructions for Frog@ease does say that Jump Start is only used on fresh fills before the system is put into the water. In fact, King recommends turning up the dial to release more SmartChor if the water is cloudy and not shocking with dichlor.

Yes, the aeration from the jets will cause pH to rise. Lower TA helps counteract that. If you are using MPS, which is acidic monitor the TA and it drops below 50 ppm bump it back up toe 60 or 70 ppm. I would test TA weekly until you have an idea of how quickly it drops but don't go longer than monthly for testing it.

According to King Technology and their instructions for this system you should not need to add additional chlorine once it is adjusted properly. If you are using the SmartChlor cartridge then you do not want to test CC since it will read high because of the dimethylhydantoin carrier for the chlorine. However, your problem with FC reading 0 ppm is illustrative of why I do not like metal or 'mineral systems that advocate using very low FC levels that leave nothing in reserve and are quickly depleted. (Call them minerals if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy but the truth is that you are adding metal ions to the water, which have very slow kill times, and are ineffective against viruses) You stated the problem in the quote below. FWIW, the Nature 2 system WHEN USED WITH CHLORINE AND NOT MPS does come close to using normal chlorine levels and not the .5 to 1. ppm that King Technology promotes (and the Nature 2 used to promote) Both companies promote these low levels with their swimming pool products but they also add copper into the mix.making these systems just another copper/silver ion system. Copper is left out of the spa systems because copper and hot water is a recipe for green hair! (easily removed with photographer's hypo aka sodium thiosulfate and citric acid if you know what you are doing (a secret known to advanced hair colorists, btw). I am also a licensed barber and cosmetologist (over 40 years now and still licensed) and worked as a colorist for many years when I was younger. I once worked in an exclusive day spa in Miami that had a hot tub. The service company kept dosing it with a copper based algaecide and we had several clients who came out with bright green hair at various times. The owners freaked the first time it happened until I told them I could remove the green with 2 simple ingredients and saved them from a lawsuit. I also told them that they needed to fire the service company taking care of the hot tub but they didn't so the problems occurred more times than I care to think about.) A fun fact, Citric acid is one of the chemicals used to remove metal staining from pool and spa surfaces along with ascorbic and oxalic (which is toxic so it's not my first choice, even though at least one pool product company sell it for this purpose) after dropping the FC levels to less than 1 ppm with sodium thiosulfate.

MPS is more acidic than dichlor and can deplete the TA much faster. Not according to the SDS for SmartChlor, it's 1.3-dichloro-5, 5-Dimethylhydantoin ......... 81.1% and 1.3-dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin .... 16.1% https://www.kingtechnology.com/sds/@ease_SmartChlor_Cartridge_R1-10092018.pdf King Technology does have the FilterMate that can be used with either bromine or dichlor but the Frog@EASE system uses their proprietary SmartChlor, which will test high CC, similar to MPS. However if you are using a Taylor K-2006 there is an add on to that kit that will allow you to removed the interfertence from MPS to get accurate FC and CC readings. How are you testing your water\ and exactly which King system are you using (SpaFrog/FrogSERENE, FilterMate, or Frog@EASE)?

King Technologies has 2 systems for hot tubs. The original SpaFrog (now called Frog Serene) is a bromine only system and not designed to work with dichlor. The second system Frog@EASE is a a chlorine based system but the chlorine source is their proprietary SmarChlor (1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin) which tests as combined chlorine. Once again this system is not compatible with dichlor. 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin is not normally used as a chlorine source in pools and spas. Nature 2 by Zodiac is used with either MPS (as long as the spa is kept heated constantly) or with dichor. If you were using bromine a floater is fine, just not with chlorine.

The problem with dichlor is that it adds CYA at a rate of 9 ppm for every 10 ppm FC added and the tub will quickly become overstabiliized. This could lead to pseudomonas infections or enteric pathogens flourishing in the water and could possibly leave you open to liability for any medical expenses. You might want to consider a silver/MPS system like Nature 2 as long as the tub is not turned off because silver and MPS are are only a sanitizer in hot water. Nature 2 can also be used with dichlor instead of MPS. The silver does provided some additional protection when used with dichlor. Dichlor is only mildly acidic so it should not cause your TA to crash and it should remain fairly stable in the 50 to 70 ppm range. Realize that if you are using chlorine it really needs to be added daily in most cases to maintain the FC level (trichlor tabs in a floater are not recommend for tubs because they are extremely acidic and reaquire constant monitoring of and I suspect that there are times that days might go by between rentals where the tub just sits there.

I assume that you both have blue pools. Bottom line is that colored fiberglass fades. This is why I opted for a white fiberglass pool when I put mine in some 16 years ago. Still looks new and because of the way sunlight interacts with the water it has a blue color anyway!

What is your chlorine source? Are you doing the dichlor/bleach method (recommended) or what?

And how has that been working for you? 😉 TA will move with pH. Get your pH in the ballpark first then adjust the TA. 1by doing this you will get a more accurate TA reading at the desired pH and can then adjust the TA from there. IF the TA needs major adjustment upward the pH will go up but usually if you bring it down to target the TA is still in the desired range.

Boric acid (ordered online from a chemical supply, Amazon, Candle and soapmaking supplier, etc.), Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate (found in commercial products for pools and spas), and Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate (found in the laundry aisle of your grocery store with 20 Mule Team on the box) all will add borate ions to the water to create the borate/boric acid buffer. of Any one can be used successfully, however the dosing and procedure is different for each. Give me a few days and I will write a post and pin it in the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum. The only difference between the pentadrate form and the decahydrate form is that the pentahydrate has 5 water molecules attached and the decahydrate has 10 water molecules attached so the pentahydrate form will need slightly less by weight to product the same ppm concentration of borate as the decahydrate.

Question, what sanitizer are you using and are you using a non chlorine shock ? Some sanitizers can cause TA to drop quickly such as trichlor, which is NOT a good choice for a hot tub for several reasons, and non chlorine shock can also deplete TA. My advice is to get the pH to between 7.6 and 7.8 then test your TA. If pH is low aerate to raise it. DO NOT USE pH increaser. If it is high use acid (dry or muriatic) to lower it Test TA. If it is below 60 ppm then add baking soda to bring it up. 1/2 tablespoon will raise 100 gallons approx. 10 ppm. recheck pH, it should not have moved much. If it has bring it in line to 7.6 to 7.8 and recheck TA. Sometimes this needs to be 2 or 3 times but it usually is in the ballpark the first time.

Read both these pinned posts. They explain some of the basics about pH and TA and the PROPER way to lower TA. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ Also realize that a TA in the range of 50 to 70 ppm works out best for most people in terms of pH stability because of the high amount of aeration in spas, which causes more outgassing of CO2 which causes the pH to rise! Also, TA will move with pH, it's the nature of the beast. Get your pH in line first (no lower than 7.6) and then adjust TA if it is not in the 50 to 70 ppm range. When pH climbs ABOVE 7.8 drop it back down to 7.6. Adding borate to 50 ppm will create a secondary borate/boric acid buffer that, in conjunction with the bicarbonate, carbonic acid buffer we call TA "locks" the pH at around 7.7 for a longer time than with out the borate. (Borate also has algaestaic properties and is a safey net if santizer levels drop. It also improves the "feel" of the water.

Ok, time for a bit of knowledge. Citric, Ascorbic, and Oxalic acids (which are the three most common powder stain removers) are effective against iron stains, cobalt spotting in fiberglass pools, and manganese stain but not very effetive on copper stains (it depends on the oxidation state of the copper stain--no effect on reddish or black ones, moderate effect on blue/green ones. I prefer ascorbic acid (vitamin C powder for a few reasons, Oxalic acid is toxic (even thought it is used on one company's Pools Stain Treatment 😉 ) and citric acid seems to have more of an effect on chlorine levels in my experience. However, all three work. With that being said the proper way to do a stain treatment is to: 1. DO NOT USE THE POOL UNTIL THE TREATMENT IS COMPLETE, CHLORINE IS HOLDING, AND FILTERS HAVE BEEN CLEANED! Do it in cold weather since you will be running at low chlorine levels for a while unless you want a green pool! It's also a good idea to add a Polyquat based algaecide or to have a borate level of 50 ppm. Either one will help prevent a green pool. Personally, I prefer the borate. For sand and cartridge filters add a pulp based filter aid to help removed any metals that might precipitate out. For DE filters make sure it's fully charged. 2. Lower FC to 1 ppm or less. You can use a peroxide or thiosulfate based chlorine remover but it might make it harder to get your FC to hold later in the procedure. What I prefer is to just stop adding chlorine for a few days. (If you have a floater take it out, if you have a feeder bypass it, if you have a salt system turn it off). 3a. IF there are visible stains on the pool surface then turn off the pump and add 1 lb. of citric, ascorbic, L-ascorbic, or oxalic acid for every 10k gallons. Sprinkle the powder in the area of the worst stains. Let sit 24 hours. 3b. IF there is water discoloration add 1 lb per 10k gallons around the edge of the pool and run for 1 hour If you have a sand or DE filter put it on recirculate. After an hour turn the pump off and let sit 24 hours. 4. After sitting brush the pool walls and bottom then turn the pump on. 5. Add 16 oz (half a bottle) of a phosphonate metal seqeustrant such as Proteam Metal Magic or Jack's Magic The Blue Stuff or the The Purple Stuff for Salt Pools for every 10K gallons of water. (There are many other brands out there but you want to avoid ones that are based on EDTA. You want ones based on Phosphonic acid derivatives or phosphonates.) 6. Vacuum pool and then clean filters (backwash sand for 3-5 minues then rinse for 2-3, Backwash and recharge DE, clean cart to removed the filter aid and clean the tank out also. 7. Test and rebalance the water as needed. DO NOT TRY TO BRING THE FC ABOVE 2 ppm and DO NOT SHOCK because this could cause the metals in the water to come out of solution and restain the pool! 8. IF you have a salt system turn it off until chlorine levels are holding 9. Daily test the FC and add enough to bring it up to 2 ppm. (I prefer liquid chlorine or bleach.) Repeat until your chlorine is holding then slowly bring the chlorine up to desired level over a period of days but DON'T RAISE IT MORE THAN 2 PPM PER DAY OR YOUR STAINS COULD COME BACK! If you have a salt system you can turn it back on now. 10. DO NOT SHOCK FOR 1 TO 2 WEEKS OR YOUR STAINS COULD COME BACK. Personally I prefer 2 weeks. 11. IF you had metal stains in your pool it means that the metals are, for the most part, in your water now. You will need to add a maintenance dose of metal sequestrant weekly at a rate of 4 oz per 10 k gallons. You will have to do this indefinitely unless you completely drain and refill with water that does not have metals. Stain removed is not easy and it doesn't always work. It really depends on the metal causing the stain and it's oxidation state (chemistry nerd stuff).

If the bromine level is low and you have a bromide bank then all you need to do is oxidize. I prefer using bleach or liquid chlorine but you can use dichlor or MPS. The floater is only to maintain bromine levels but if they drop you need to reactivate the bromine into hypobromous acid (active bromine sanitizer by oxidizing it (most refer to this as 'shocking the tub')