telstar

Hi: I am a fiberglass pool dealer in central Florida. I may be able to help you either directly or if nothing else in answering any questions you may have. I believe that it is possible to send a pm through this forum. Depending on the county in which you live, I may cover that area.

You are probably are not going to like what I have to tell you or how I'll say it but maybe it'll answer some questions for you... I appreciate your compassion. This is a very delicate situation for me and my family. Probably the number one reason my wife and kids went for the house we did was on account of this pool. And now it's totaled and there is no way we will have the cash to repair it properly. My wife found a website which suggests it's possible to self-repair any damage to a fiberglass pool using this apoxy-type stuff they sell and the advise they offer over the phone. Everything they've told us sounds reasonable in theory, but in practice I just don't know how possible it is. Basically they say we can dig out around the pool and remove the earth that's slid into the sides. Then, we can punch the sides of the pool back out and use this apoxy to patch the cracks. Finally, we can have someone sandblast where the apoxy was applied, fill in around the pool and fill the pool... Of course, it sounds great. Any experience with this sort of repair? The website is http://www.uglassit.com/. Please let me know if this is a pipe-dream or if this could actually work before we start writing checks to the contractor to start tearing out our concrete. Thanks! Is it possible that you could post a picture of the pool you have in its current state on this site for me. If I had some clue as to its total damage, I would be able to make you a more informed recommendation. I personally can't say as I've heard of uglassit.com, I will be sure to check it out. It sounds kind of suspect to me with regard to the methods you describe. It sounds like a patch; I ask my customers if they want to fix something or just "patch it" because a "patch" is just that. If you could post a pic of the pool, I would appreciate it, and get back to you.

You are probably are not going to like what I have to tell you or how I'll say it but maybe it'll answer some questions for you To answer your primary question, with regard to a fiberglass pools serial number, there are several common areas to look; however it depends upon the manufacturer. If it is a San Juan fiberglass pool for example one can typically locate a pool serial number stamped into the pool itself just under the base of the skimmer. other companies such as Blue Hawaiian stamp thier serial number usually on the side of the top step at the shallow end of the pool. I have seen other companies that their serial number is solely spray painted on the back of the pool itself. Another clue as to pinpointing a manufacturer of origin is the shape of the pool- or its design. Most models that are offered carry design patents in one form or another which prohibit other manufacturers from duplicating it exactly. This is a guide only, though. Now comes the bad news. I've been installing fiberglass pools for 20 years, and during that time I have yet to see a manufacturer offer a fully transferrable warranty. What this translates to usually is that you as the second homeowner have little or no recourse against the manufacturer because you did not purchase that pool directly. Some more bad news translates to exclusions within a warranty. I almost am certain that every manufacturer has a provision that excludes acts of God. From what the posting says- an act of god describes it best it in that it was an unforseen circumstance that the manufacturer did not have any control over. If I have depressed you enough, I'll say that it depends on how bad the pool has broken, as to the only answer as to how feasible it is to repair. The only person that could give you any clue as to its repairability is a fiberglass dealer, or if you can determine the brand- the manufacturer, either way you will have to spend money.

Please do yourself a favor before deciding on a pool. Please visit the following www.courtofappeals.mijud.net.documents/opinions /full/coa/23003408_c231006_45_231006.opn.pdf. if the following address doesn't work go to www.courtofappeals.mijud.net seach for case 231006 and read to unpublished opinion regarding that case number. it helps to spell correctly also- which I remedied

Please do yourself a favor before deciding on a pool. Please visit the following www.courtofappeals.mjud.net.documents/opinions /full/coa/23003408_c231006_45_231006.opn.pdf. if the following address doesn't work go to www.courtofappeals.mjud.net seach for case 231006 and read to unpublished opinion regarding that case number.

Please do yourself a favor before deciding on a pool. Please visit the following www.courtofappeals.mjud.net.documents/opinions /full/coa/23003408_c231006_45_231006.opn.pdf.

I agree with you in that the SAM light by Pentair is a bright light and will completely illuminate most pools. The point that I have that makes me hesitate is the many many internal parts that that light has inside it to make it work properly. As a pool builder who started off as a service technician, it looks like that light can be a nightmare to repair. As far as fiberoptic goes, it is what I would consider more of a background lighting. It is not near bright enough to illuminate the pool so that everything in the pool can be seen clearly. Homes with small children for instance cannot rely on this light as a sole light source should the unthinkable occur.

From the pictures of the pool that you had posted, brings to mind several areas of concern not only with regard to the structural integrityy of the pool shell, but also with the fill area and the decking surrounding the pool. What you will probably find is that even though you may feel or hope the pool "can possibly" be fixed in some form or another, you will probably find that no licensed contractor will be willing to touch that pool. Not to be mean, but any vessel that has that much structural damage done to it is likely to have broken pipes, soil vacancies where the water table has washed dirt away from underneath the deck as well as from behind the walls of the pool. My point is that there are too many unknowns that you would be asking a contractor to take for granted if they were to stop anywhere short of complete removal and examination of all the damaged areas of that pool, piping, decking etc.

I can tell you what I use as a fiberglass dealer in Florida to install perimeter tile. It's made by a company called Novagard- which makes a silicone tile grout and adhesive just for that purpose. I get this material through my distributor- South Central Pool Supply, which has branches all over the US. and distributes to pool stores of all types. If some reason you cannot locate this material locally, you may need to contact Novagard directly at 5109 Hamilton Ave. Cleveland Ohio, 44114. They should be able to help you with a dealer.

I am sorry to hear of your problems with the installation of your swimming pool in Florida. Being as though I am also in Florida I may be able to give you some pointers; which may or may not help. First of all, each contractor licensed by the state of Florida has to answer to several entities; first of all the Building department. Your best bet is to file a formal complaint against the company as well as the license holder, at the building department first. Be sure you include their license number, which should start with either a CPC prefix or a RP prefix for either certified or a registered contractor respectively. Once that has been done, you can have the matter brought before the local licensing board, of which if they find significant cause they can suspend a license holders permitting priviledges within that jurisdiction. This is key, in that if a license has been suspended in a municipality, the state licensing board has more of an incentive to act. Next is to file a complaint with the Florida Department of Business and Professional regulation. The form can be located at www.myfloridalicense.com. What you may or may not also about is the Construction industry recovery fund. Each construction contract, regardless as to whether iit is house, pool, plumbing, roofing, etc. must describe in detail what the fund is and who to contact. The fund is there specifically for such an instance of violations of law by any state licensed contractor where a homeowner can seek restitution from that fund. Any payment from that fund immediately suspends the contracting license of that individual until whatever is payed out has been recouped from the contractor. Any and all manufacturers can have good dealers as well as bad ones; whether fiberglass, concrete, or vinyl liner. Lumping all fiberglass pools/and contractors in that category isn't fair or representative of alot of us hardworking dealers out there. I am sorry to hear of your problems. Maybe this is helpful.

I may be able to give you some tips with regard to pool heat pumps;, of which I use as a guideline. maybe it will help. In addition to checking a heaters btu output, you also may want to check something called a COP rating usually listed on the side of a heat pump. COP- basically is described as the Coefficient of operating performance. Basically all that means is that each unit has been tested to independent uniform standards set (believe me I'm not an AC man).- but it translates to the more efficient a unit is the higher the COP number- and the less it costs to heat or do the job it was designed for. Depending on the power company, the higher the efficiency rating could very well transfer to a rebate on an electric bill. Also in heat pump consideration look to the heat exchanger; either copper, or titanium. Copper heat exchangers have better heat transferrance but are extremely suseptable to water chemistry Titanum however, does not rely on balanced water for its longevity. I personally use a titanum heat pump in my installations and have had success.

I don't know if this will be of help to you but I have installed several fiberglass pools indoors. The main factors that you need to keep in mind is adequate deck drainage (ie. floor drains to deal with pool overflow water. Next you will need to address water resistant building materials- which means instead of using regular sheet rock on the interior wall itself- using either green board or concrete board to cover the wooden studs. The most important factor in any pool installation indoors is humidity. The best point of advice with this regard is to consult with a licensed HVAC contractor. Heating a pool indoors without making some kind of provisions for de humidifying a room can cause serval health issues not limited to mold, algae or a indoor condensation resembling a rain effect. If a indoor pool project is done correctly it can be very beneficial in that it can give a longer swimming season. I hope that this helps.

My personal product of choice is hayward and hayward pool products. I know that there will be die hard Sta-rite and pent air contratotrs who will say elsewise, of which to each his own. I've used Hayward for the past fifteen years at least. When Hayward bought out Comfortzone several years back it added a good quality lp gas heater to its line. I am not however a fan of the Hayward heat pump with its ceramic coated copper heat exchanger. I dont know if this is true with all manufacturers, but Hayward used to give an extended warranty to go "totally Hayward" in pool equipment. For all I know the same thing may apply to the others too. If you are choosing a De filter look at its design and how serviceable it is. If a filter has bolts galore holding it together, it does not make it easy to completely change out the de as needed from time to time.

Installing pool/spa equipment below grade will require shut off valves that can be turned in order to allow servicability of equipment without the pool draining. In florida where I am from it is very common to see a pool with solar panels for example where the circulating pump is pushing a vertical column of water 10 to 12 feet straight up to the roof of a house to where the panels are located. A pumps ability to do such depends on the head pressure of the pump.

I understand your pool concerns, especially with regard to the gas heating system. I can understand why one might have chosen this type of heater, as it does have its advantages in that it will heat in just about any condition. Although an LP Gas heater is not the most cost effieciant way of heating a pool of that nature. Had anyone mentioned to you with regard to a swimming pool heat pump? Your posting mentions someone had given you a figure of about $35 a month on the cold months. I heat pools in Florida that are 3 to four times the gallonage that you had given me for about 35 to 45 dollars a month. I will admit, in areas where it snows or where the ambient temperature is around 30 degrees it will not work because it pulls heat from the surrounding air. I do not imagine South Carolina having cold spells lasting excessively long. It's just that it seems as though you had taken my advice in regard to purchasing that pool so I hope that you will take what I tell you for what its offering. I do not know why they put the pool equipment where they did. Like I say you are there, you can see what they did and why. I wouldn't even venture a guess as to why someone does certain things. If the Badu jet that you have is the one I remember it alone has either a 3 hp or a 5 hp motor to work just it. It should push you across the pool if you let it. With regard to the other jets , It depends on pump sizing and how many jets are running on one pump. I hope that I have been useful to you in my postings. I am not a ALaglass dealer, however, I am glad that you bought something that may provide years of enjoyment to you.

The quote of $10,500 that you had mentioned sounds a little high to me, but as you said I don't know what that bid had included. I would think that a more resonable figure would be around 7000 to $8000. ( Bear in mind I am going by pricing in my neck of the woods). Of that pricing, it should include digging the hole, installing the pool, backfilling it properly, and the pool pump filter, fittings and necessary piping to make it run properly. Concrete would be extra, and around here it runs about $115 a cubic yard, with an average of about 8 yards for that pool. The piping issue raised in your reply brings up my next topic. Usually depending on the contractor, they use separate lines for each thing attached to the pool; so, if you want your pool equipement lets say 20 feet away from your pool deck- you multiply that figure by three to account for one drain line, one skimmer line and one retun line. It's nothing on an average install to use 300 feet of pipe easily. Typically I use a two inch suction line and an inch and a half return line. Now, to your last point of concern, regarding a sump line and a sump pit. In my area we have lots and lots and lots of sand, so I typically use well points instead of a sump pit. If the installing contractor has things well in hand, there is a dedicated pump running just for that during the pool installation. This pump is not a guarantee that the pool will not float in a hard rain. It is usually also a good point of valor to consider a hydrostatic relief valve in the pool itself. Well, if I ended up writing you half a book in my reply I do apologize.

I see that this original posting is a couple of months old so you may or may not already have the pool installed- if so, I hope it is working out. If it hasn't been yet, I can tell you some of what you need to look for. First of all, if you don't have one you will need dig plan. All that is is a detailed drawing as to the exact depth measurements at given distances; this allows you or whoever is installing it to dig the pool hole to the exact specs so the pool can fit. A pools height in respect to its surroundings (ie. deck) must be considered also. Building code requirements stipulate that a perimeter deck surrounding a pool is built so that water sheds from the pool to the outside. Typically a deck can have no more than a 1/2" fall per running foot of distance, and no less than an 1/8". Depending on the soil that is encountered (namely rock as compared to sand)- you will have to overdig the depth by at least 6 inches and refill to grade with good clean sand. Once the hole is prepared and the pool is placed in it (typically by a crane) it needs to be leveled with bottle jacks . At this point, as the piping is attached and the water is filling the pool,- the bottom should be checked for hollows and filled by washing sand in and underneath. Just as important, ALL backfill should be washed in and I do mean ALL- for proper compaction. The sand in reference to the water inside should be filled equally. Once a pool is backfilled, then you can add your deck and accessories. pump, etc. I hope that this is helpful to you. Being as though I am a Florida Contractor, I don't know what the cost of living is up there. My only point of advice is ask each individual that you got a quote from to describe exactly what they will do verbatum and why- my experience has been that you can get a good feel as to what someone actually knows as compared to a sales pitch by just chatting a few minutes with them. You will probably find that the one who knows his or her field isn't the cheapest bid you have. Good luck in your quest.

I appreciate your comments with regard to my previous posting, and I do agree with namely two aspects of what you had discussed. First of all, I do agree with you in that warranties are a sales strategy. I encounter warranty differences with regard to the product I sell in comparison to my competitor. ( Notwithstanding the fact that I have been with the same manufacturer since they started 20 years ago and my own biased beliefs with regard to my product)- I would have to say that warranties are a way for someone uneducated through experience to differentiate between otherwise identical sales pitches. It doesn't necessarily mean that one product is better than another-but marketed an presented in a different light. Anyone who reads any of the postings listed on this forum can see for themselves that a product is only as good as the person who installs it-(which is my second aspect). You could have the best product in the world, but if it is installed ineptly- it kind of negates all the provisions any manufacturer can take against unforseen problems. I do not necessarily agree with you in regard to one manufacturer outselling another in more regions, hence the different warranty. I have installed pools of color as well as those without- and as my experience has found that white pools are more resilient in some aspects- which is why I only recommend white-it is a matter of preference that I have. When I joined this forum it was based on the principle of providing factual information- not a 24 hour sales pitch marathon. I do hope that I have adhered to that strategy.

Any swimming pool contractor (especially in Florida) will tell you never-ever, ever drain any swimming pool regardless as to what the pool is made out of. Hydrostatic pressure under a swimming pool can have a very devestating effect if a pool is emptied. A very good example of what I am talking about can be represented with a empty glass in a sink. Take the glass, flip it upside down and hold it there while filling the sink with water-the upward pressure on your hand is similar to that of the water table affecting a pool. Hydrostatic pressure can break pipes, break the pool itself, make the pool rise out of the ground, break surrounding decks, to name a few. Homeowners insurance usually will not cover such an incident if it is caused by owner error. I dont know if you had the pool installed your self or it was in the house when you bought it; regardless, the point I am making is the same-good money was spent on its installation. Pools are getting more and more expensive every day, protect your investment.

[quote name='frostlich' date='Jan 3 2007, 01:54 PM' post='18551 So, our new 18'x43' fiberglass pool was installed and final walkthrough was about 2 weeks ago. The permit isn't event closed yet due to a non self-closing gate issue (thats a different story.) We haven't even used the pool once. Today, while cleaning the pool, I noticed a crack at the bottom of the pool right beside the main drain. At first, I thought it may be dirt, but after running the brush along it my worst fears were confirmed. I could actually feel the texture of the crack in the handle of the extension pole while running over it with the brush! The crack is about 1 foot long and a smaller one has started about 1 inch adjacent and parallel. I called up the pool installer, they manufacture their own pools, and they asked me to check if it is leaking. I made some reference marks on the water level and will call back in the A.M. Suffice it to say, I've soured a long time ago on expecting good business ethics from 95% of contractors, and expect this to go no differently. I'm quite angry right now, but being a brand new pool owner I'm not sure what to expect. My thoughts are that being into this pool for ~$35k, and it being in the ground for a little over 30 days, the darn thing shouldn't crack in any way shape or form. I don't know that patching it is acceptable, in that if the pool cracked so early, it's just a symptom of a shotty install, and/or worse things to come. So, a little feedback would help here. What is considered a "hairline" crack? What would be reasonable expectations for a newly installed pool? Is a patch on a crack so early in the pools life acceptable? What would be considered a reasonable resolution?(right now, I'm not feeling too reasonable). Oh, and for the record....I DID NOT DRAIN THE POOL!!! I'll take a shot at answering your concerns, hopefully the'll be of some help to you. Each Fiberglass pools manufacturer is a little different from the other. As a general rule however, what I have come to understand as a hairline crack is one that is superficial in nature, (meaning in the finish gelcoat only-not structural or entending all the way thouh your pool-therefore no water loss. Cracks in Fiberglass can result from any variety of reasons. I would suspect its location to be resultant from a common cause however. A swimming pool drain as you know has piping running to it. You as a homeowner and you alone can say exactly what was or was not done when they were installing it. A common cause stems from excessive pressure of dirt being pressed on the drain piping from an over eager or over rushed heavy equipment operator. Dirt as a general principle should be throughly compacted by washing it in and around the pool. As far as patching the pool, if it is done correctly- one should never see or be able to tell that it was ever there. I will advise though that the more elaborate the finish- the harder it is to exactly match it. Please keep in mind that during the initial pool making process, once a shell is removed from a mold it is examined for defects, and/or scratches and repaired in the same way before it ever comes to your jobsite. They say that everybody has to input their two cents, so suffice it to say that here is mine.

I have been installing fiberglass swimming pools as well as spas for the past 20 years. During that time I have indeed installed spas with insulation around them as well as those without. I can only relate to you my experience with regard to the same. For the first year or two when the insulation is still intact you may save a little more money than without I do not believe that the amount is significant enough to mention. What tends to happen after the first couple of years is that the sprayed on insulation deteriorates an flakes away bit by bit, leaving only the fiberglass left after awhile. Fiberglass itself is a natural insulator. Look at the insulation in houses for example, the insulating mat or blown in insulation in a roof keeps cool air in in summer, and hot air in in the winter. What you also may or may not know is that several spa manufacturers of acrylic spas do not insulate their spas either but rather leave the fiberglass reinforcement to to the insulation. I hope that this has helped you in your decision making

I did my research today; and I did in fact look at that address that you had given me; of which it did tell about the warranty , and if I were satisfied with that I would have stopped there; however, in looking at an actual warranty card several things were suprisingly omitted. I would have to refer you to namely line 4 of the Viking warranty. So that there is no misinterpretation about what it states let me type it out for you. "4:Vikings finish coat or gel coat is warranteed against osmotic blistering for a total period of 7 years, comprised of 3 years unconditional, and 4 years pro-rated. This warranty excludes discoloration, staining, hairline cracks, blistering, surface yellowing, cobalting and roughness due to water chemistry or material characteristics of the crystite finish (except blistering for 7 years as stated above)." What I had remembered as strange I'll have to leave for the others who view this message in that 85 percent of what typically can occur with a gel-coated pool is excluded in that last sentence. Please if I'm wrong feel free to correct me-as I'm sure that you will. As for me being a pool specialist, I've been installing and repairing pools for the last 20 years. I am not trying to intentionally knock one product over another, I am however trying to get across that all warranties should be read in their entirety to make an informed decision. No posted online warranty is at least more truthful than half of a posted warranty. Any and all customer that ask to see the warranty of the pools I sell I happily show to them.

Never in mylife have I ever heard such mis-information about a given topic. Osmotic blistering as is is refered to is not caused by"workers sweating into the gelcoat", but rather than from a chemical reaction between the typically chlorinated water and the catalyst used to make the pool itself harden- which is also called cobalting. Older companies such as Gold Key fiberglass pools, and Phoenix fiberglass pools, both of which are no longer in business, commonly encountered such problems. Today though the implementation of vinyl ester resins in pools has made blisters more of a rarity. If your pool has blisters on it I also recommend contacting the manufacturer. If San Juan made your pool your warranty should say American Environmental Container Corp. somewhere on it. Be very careful though that it does not say San Juan Fiberglass pools, Inc. as the prior company manutactures them now.

It also seems kind of funny that even though viking has a seven year warranty on the gelcoat- if one reads the exclusions- important things such as osmotic blistering are in fact excluded.