Elbyron

Anyone who's researched the differences between chlorine and bromine systems has probably already heard that bromine is less sensitive to pH. But did you know that bromine is also better at handling ammonia? Chlorine preparations will react with ammonia to produce monochloramine (or sometimes dichloramine or trichloramine), which have some disinfecting ability but not as much as hypochlorous acid and far lower than that of hypobromous acid. But bromine systems will react with ammonia to produce a mixture of mono-, di- and tribromo amines. These decompose quickly and are good at disinfecting: somewhat better than that of BCDMH, and far better than that of chloramine. In my research I also discovered that the volatility of hypobromous acid is about tenfold less than that of hypochlorous acid. So bromine is more stable - which I assume just means that you don't need to keep adding as much. Bromine has a lower oxidizability than chlorine, meaning that it won't corrode metals as easily. In some rare conditions, such as with the presence of humus acid, chloroform or bromoform can be produced. If you watch crime dramas you've probably heard of the former. Both are known carcinogens (cause cancer) but the main difference is that bromoform is quickly decomposed in water, while cholorform is not. Some say that the bromine smell is harder to shower off than the chlorine smell. But in terms of comfort, I think most people would find bromine to be better... I'm not a vendor or anything, just a homeowner who's done lots of research.

So if I understand this right, you're saying that if you shock with chlorine (such as bleach), and your bromine level is very low or zero, you would essentially be building up the chlorine levels instead of the bromine, and the color of the test reading would be the same as if the chlorine had simply oxidized the Br- into HOBr. Thus, using a chlorine shock you cannot tell if your bromine levels are low. But if MPS shock is used, and there are few or no bromide ions, this could be detected by the test reading remaining low after adding the shock. If I'm correct, then that kinda sucks for me because I've run out of MPS and switched to bleach. Is there a good way to tell whether the tub currently contains bromine or chlorine (I'm thinking smelling it might work)? If I were to just add some sodium bromide when the bromine/chlorine test is low, would this be a good way to ensure that the tub is using a bromine system, or could adding too much NaBr cause problems? One more question: if I shock with chlorine, how long does it take for it to get used up in the oxidization process?

I'm also a Canadian (Edmonton) and have found that the Taylor kits are way overpriced up here. You should try phoning all the nearby spa stores and ask if they sell Taylor water testing kits (also ask their price for their filter cleaner). Another option is to order online. The best price I've seen is from Apolla Pools. They currently charge $143.50 + $21.95 shipping for the K-2006 test kit, but you can actually buy the individual components for close to $100, by starting with a K-1004 kit and adding on the FAS-DPD (R-0870, R-0871) and the calcium hardness (R0009, R0010, R0011). For me, test strips give an accurate enough reading on the calcium hardness, and it doesn't need to be checked very often as it doesn't change very much. So if you exclude that, then the total is only $63.30 and the shipping only $12.95. Plus, the K-1004 includes the regular DPD test, which isn't as accurate as FAS-DPD but works well enough to tell if your chlorine/bromine levels are ok. If you decide to go with Apollo, you may want to also add an extra bottle or two of the R-0014 pH indicator, as the K-1004 kit only comes with 22mL and it will run out fairly quick (especially if you're trying to get the pH balanced).

Ok, I found a local supplier who can get the Taylor test kits, and though still much more expensive than in the U.S. it's not too bad considering there's no shipping cost. The fellow supplies a large number of pools around the city (mostly commercial), and really knows a lot about water testing. He highly recommends Taylor as well, though doesn't think it's neccessary to get the FAS-DPD kit for residential usage. I tend to agree, since I only care if the bromine level is low or ok... the exact ppm isn't important to me. In fact the test strips I have now seem to be good enough for reading bromine, but the pH reading sucks. The pool supplier suggested I get the K1004 kit ($38.80 CAD), which includes DPD, pH, AD, and TA. He said if I buy my chemicals from him, he'll test my water samples for free, so that should suffice for the occasional calcium hardness test. He also sells the bromine tablets (he stocks them for the few customers who have a pool & a bromine spa), but I'm not sure which type they are. Does it make any difference what type they are, besides how quickly I use them up?

The spa store probably sold you some "non-chlorine shock", whose main ingredient is potassium monopersulphate or something similar. This is the MPS that hillbillly refers to. Using MPS tends to slowly decrease pH and total alkalinity, and it adds sulfates to the water. Shocking with chlorine is probably a better choice (your tablets actually include some chlorine, but you usually still need to add more). The store might sell chlorine as calcium hypochlorite (increases water hardness), lithium hypochlorite (expensive), or dichlor (ok, but still a bit pricey). Your best bet is sodium hypochlorite, which in its liquid form is found in ordinary unscented laundry bleach. For a 300 gallon tub, use 1 cup of regular bleach (5.25%) or 3/4 cup of ultra bleach (6.00%). Turn on the jets before dumping it in, and be careful not to spill on the tub or on yourself. Don't tell the spa store - they don't like it when people use bleach even though it doesn't do any harm (unless you spill on the tub). If you test an hour after adding the bleach, your bromine reading should jump way up. If it doesn't, you don't have enough sodium bromide. Depending how high it jumped, you may have to wait several more hours before going in. You're not supposed to go in if the level is over 10ppm, but I've done it (not patient enough to wait for it to drop) and didn't get any irritation, though I did shower off afterwards.

I'm a newbie too, but I've been doing a lot of research, including reading a lot of the posts on this forum and a few others. So I'll take a crack at it, and hope that one of the experts here can verify or add to my answers. You should definately read over Nitro's water balancing guide, except for the part on sanitation since that part was written for chlorine users. As Nitro said, you need to alternate adding acid (your "pH Down" bottle) with periods of running all the jets & blowers. Read his thread for more details. I'm pretty sure an accurate measurement should be read about 15 seconds after taking it out of the water (according to my bottle of test strips anyway). Dried out strips aren't going to be accurate at all. Once you have your pH and alkalinity balanced, then you should measure again to see what your bromine level is at. For a new tub, it's important that you build up the initial bromide reserve by adding sufficient sodium bromide. Your spa vendor may have given you some 100% sodium bromide but mine just sells these "brominating granules" that are 14% sodium bromide and 86% di-chlor. Your spa vendor probably doesn't know the difference between these. Mine was confused when I started asking about sodium bromide... she had know idea what it was. Either product will work, but you'll need a lot more of the latter so the amount your vendor recommended might not be enough if they sold you the 14% stuff. Once you have the bromine in, you should shock according to the instructions on the bottle (even if the amounts are contrary to what the vendor instructed). For maintenance you need to continue to shock and to add bromine on a regular basis, but it seems to be different for everyone, so basically just test your water every day and see if the bromine is low. If it is, shock it and measure again in a few hours. The shock is supposed to cause the bromine reading to jump up. If the level remains low, then you don't have enough of a bromide reserve, and you need to add more bromine. If you use the bromine tablets, they will slowly release bromine and chlorine (shock), so you won't need to add chemicals as often (except after heavy use). When you run out of chemicals, some of them can be replaced by household items. Your Alk-up is just baking soda. The pH-up is the same as Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda (not the laundry detergent). And one of the best forms of shock is just plain unscented bleach (sodium hypochlorite). My final suggestion is to read this primer on using Bromine.

I read in one of the posts here that the bromide reserve cannot be measured directly, because any test that detects bromide ions will also pick up chloride ions which always exist in the water. So my question is, how do you know that your reserve is low and you need to add more sodium bromide? My guess: If your reserve was totally depleted then you wouldn't have anything to oxidize into hypobromous acid, thus adding shock would no longer cause an increase in the bromine reading (which as I understand it measures only the hypobromous acid). If this is true then I would assume a low reserve could be detected by noticing a reduced effect of shocking. Am I on the right track? Conversely, if the bromine readings jump up after shocking, does this then mean the bromide reserve is ok? What if the bromine reading drops to zero again within 24 hours - would this be indicative of a low reserve or is something else causing this? If I don't use tablets, how often would I have to add sodium bromide for an average sized tub (with ozonator), and how much to add each time? And if I don't use tablets do I have to shock more often?

So what you're saying is that bromide ions will definitely affect the phenol red, or that you're not sure and I should test to find out? P.S. Just a comment regarding Struckin's original question about the pink color: I've been researching pH indicators to learn more about how they work, and this wikipedia page says that Phenol Red will turn a bright pink (fuchsia) color if the pH is over 8.1, though as chem geek mentioned, it could be falsely reading this high because of high FC.

It's a shame this thread turned into a debate over plagiarism, but I'd still like some opinions on the forms of Bromine tablets. Though, it might only be for learning purposes since I don't think I'll be able to buy the less common tablet types. Sounds like a good idea. I now intend to get a drop test kit, but the Taylor kits are unbelievably expensive in Canada. I'm hoping to be able to use another brand (see this post).

I'm currently using Aquacheck test strips, which seem to be ok for getting approximate readings on most tests but the pH reading is really messed up. First of all it's hard to read because the surface of the little square is white-ish and all I can see is some color showing through the white. Secondly, it appears to start off orange (too low) but after 15 seconds out of the water it has changed to a more reddish color which measures as being in a good range. The bottle does say to wait 15 seconds before reading the strip, but it doesn't say which of the tests that the delay applies to. In any case, I don't want to rely on the strips for pH testing anymore. Since I'm in Canada, getting the Taylor products is very expensive (10 grams of DPD powder costs $56.80 and the FAS-DPD 60oz bottle is $70.90 at a local store that can special order this stuff). Most of the spa stores either only carry test strips, or they offer the Rainbow Lifegard test kits made by Pentair. There's very little information about the Pentair products, but the pH test reagent is red colored so it's likely Phenol Red, and since it's cheap they probably don't bother with the chlorine neutralizer. Although, in some of the descriptions it does say "pre-blended pH", so I wonder what that means? My questions for Chem Geek are: If I use unstabilized Phenol Red to test the pH in a bromine spa, can it be affected by the small amount of free chlorine that might be present, or can it be affected by the bromide ions? If the free bromide does affect the Phenol Red, will adding thiosulfate neutralize the effect like it does for chlorine? If using a cheap kit, how would one compensate for the change in pH caused by adding thiosulfate? In a post over at whatsthebest-hottub.com, you mentioned in an "edit" that: Do you know if Pentair was one of those major manufacturers?

I'm a new owner of a spa except that in my case it was previously used by the former owner of my house. I flushed, drained, scrubbed, and refilled the tub according to the instructions from my local spa store. I have the SpaEssentials products, including the weird Bromine powder (sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione 82.5% / sodium bromide 14.7%), some MPS shock, the other usual chemicals, and AquaCheck test strips. The bromine stuff is weird because it includes dichlor, which should act as the oxidizer... so it's like a 2-step system but all in one bottle. I'm really confused as to whether or not additional shock is required with this bromine product, and how often it should be added. The spa store lady said to start up by adding 2 capfuls of the bromine & shock, then adjust alkalinity and finally pH. Well, I don't think she knows anything about the chemicals she sells, and wasn't aware that this powder was only 14.7% sodium bromide (she didn't even know what I was talking about when I said sodium bromide!). So I added a lot more than 2 capfuls, and a few hours later the test strips showed a high reading, about 20ppm. I then did the shock, but the alkalinity and pH were already ok. Since then I've been having a lot of trouble keeping the bromine levels up. Every day I add 2 or 3 capfuls and it does get it up to 20ppm for a few hours, but the next day it's always zero again. Shocking it also seems to increase the bromine reading, so I assume the test strips are not counting the amount of bromide ions, just the hypobromous acid (and maybe the bromamines?). When the weird Bromine powder runs out, which will be very soon at this rate, I'm thinking of switching to tablets. Hopefully this will help stabilize the bromine levels, as it will better regulate the release of chlorine and bromine. Any suggestions for the type of tablets: BCDMH, DBDMH, or Dantobrom (BCDMH + DCDMH + DCEMH)? Can anyone explain the advantages and disadvantages of each? Also, I know many people on this forum recommend using drop tests instead of strips, but I really like the convenience of the strips. Getting an exact read isn't that important to me, as long as I can tell whether something is too low, too high, or just right. So, can you give me some good reasons why I should switch?