JerimiahR

That's a Hot Spring Sovereign, which is smaller than yours. Great model though. We have so, so many Sovereigns in our market its not even funny.

All things being equal, I would get a Cover Cradle 2. Most of our customers do. However, you need to have a cover with the mounting brackets to make it work. I'd suggest the Cover Cradle, as opposed to the Cover Cradle 2. The "Cover Cradle" has 2 gas springs on it that actually help you do some of the work, which is important on such a large spa. The Cover Cradle 2 only has 1 gas spring (yes I know that sounds backwards but trust me), and although it'll work, I'd still suggest the original 2 spring unit. It'll be better for a larger, heavier cover. We sell several cover lifters, and even though the Cover Cradle is the most expensive, it probably makes up 80-90% of the lifters we sell. Keep in mind for anyone else reading this thread, the Cover Cradle only works on Hot Spring brand spas. Hot Spring (on their newer covers) puts a bracket inside them that is REQUIRED for the Cover Cradle to physically mount to (it's screwed to the cover). AMG, Make sure your cover has the brackets in one half of it. If you look at your cover, one half (where the handle is) will have a warning label printed on the vinyl. This is the "FRONT" of your cover. The other half (the REAR) does not have the warning label, but still has a handle. This is the half which will have the brackets in it. Feel along the flat edge of the cover and see if you can find the metal plate inside with your fingers. If you have those brackets (they'll be on both sides, and the back of the cover) I'd suggest the Cover Cradle. It's more expensive, but it's a reliable and sturdy product which was specifically made for Hot Spring Spas. Normally however, I always recommend to my customers to let the dealer install the Cover Cradle, specifically because you don't get second chances to put the screw in the wrong place. If you drill into the wrong part of the cover, you've now got a hole in your cover that will allow water to seep in faster than you'd like. BTW: The Cover Cradle fits the new 2009 Grandee as well, which is slightly bigger than your 1995 Grandee. So I have no doubts that it'll fit.

Chris, Your dealer is mostly correct. I sell the Hot Spring line here in Montana (where we've had many -20F days/evenings) and they are fantastic for our climate. There really are several reasons for why the 24/7 circulation pump is the best way to go in my opinion. It will indeed cut down on your electric bill since you're not cycling a larger, higher amperage jet pump on and off. The new circulation pump Hot Spring uses only consumes like 39W (so it's cheaper than your porch light chances are). You'll save quite a bit of wear and tear on the jet pump over the years since it doesn't start/stop multiple times a day. That ultimately may save you money in the future. As someone else mentioned, the circulation pump can very well protect the hot tub should you ever have a heater fail during cold months. I've personally seen it happen. We have lots of customers who live quite a ways from our service center, and we can't always get out to them same day. But sure enough, those whose circulation pump is running (yet the spa isn't heating) are fine until we can get to them. That difference of slow moving water can be pretty substantial. The other thing I personally like about the 24/7 circulation method, is that you can also produce and inject ozone into the water 24/7 as well (rather than only when the spa is circulating). To me, this means more effective use of ozone to oxidize and purify the water. We have a lot of customers in our area who are seasonal, and 90% of the year aren't at their local residence. Many of them have their spas up and running for whenever they decide to come out and ski, hike, fish, etc. They typically have someone come out once a week, or once every other week to maintain their spas for them (chlorine, etc). These are spas that are filled, heated, and circulating 24/7 but the jets are not run with any regularity. And as a general rule we don't have any problems with them freezing up. Those that have any problems, are usually due to lack of maintenance (dirty/clogged filter shutting down the spa is the most common).

I agree, check the water temperature. If it's not at 80F then it could be running continually "trying" to heat, but not heating. If your heating element has failed, the spa will likely keep trying to heat not realizing the element just isn't working.

I agree. I would never buy a used hot tub unless I could see it filled, running, and heated. You need to be sure it holds water, heats, and all the jets and controls are in good working order. And as stated, a technician can't really test anything unless he/she can turn the spa on. And you can't turn it on when it's empty. Depending on where exactly you're at, a spa that's been empty for a year and a half makes me worry about freezing issues. In my market, we hit -20F during the winter, so it's a very big deal here. If your area never even hits 32F then you should be fine as far as that goes. Still, I'd like to see it up and running before I'd give someone $2,000 for it.

Shop around some. See if you have any other dealers in the area that sell other brands. As a Hot Spring dealer, I would of course recommend Hot Spring. As a consumer, I'd recommend shopping around simply because I've had several customers who've owned Bullfrog Spas tell me they like our Hot Spring better. It's partly about taste though, and partly about build quality, mechanics, efficiency, etc. But if you're going to test soak a Bullfrog spa, test soak in something else as well so you actually have something to compare too. Otherwise, if you only ever sit in one hot tub, you'll probably like it simply because you have no comparison at all.

The second link took me to some spam site. Looks like it goes to www.xxxx.com/shopping.html. So it's no good. The first link, I'd take with a grain of salt at least, considering it's a free Angelfire website (that's about the same as reading someone's personal blog essentially. However, they do seem to make some sense. While they point out worst case scenarios with ABS backed Acrylic, they don't seem to support it in any fashion. So it's a little biased. It's funny how folks do that. They reason that manufacturers who us ABS backed Acrylic shells only fill their spas with dense foam insulation for "structure" purposes. And seem to forget that most people prefer to fill the walls of their home with insulation for a reason. If a spa does leak that is "fully foamed" it is indeed more difficult to locate and repair that leak. However, it has been my experience (with Hot Spring at least) that they tend to leak at a much smaller rate. In fact, the spas I've seen that require plumbing related repairs are usually spas that are left empty in the winter (without being properly winterized). This is an age old argument that goes back and forth, and both sides will stab at each other whenever they get the chance. So be very careful about the information you find. To be honest, I'd suggest you stop by local dealers and look at the spas for yourself, ask a few questions, and hear everyone's stories. There's much more difference between brands than simply shell materials. So I'd caution you on making a decision based on the one issue. Good luck to you guys in your hot tub search though! I hope you two have a good shopping experience once you head off to look at spas.

Don & Geri, Where in Montana do you live? Have you stopped by any of the Hot Spring dealers yet? I'm curious what you've heard about the use of ABS in spas. It's interesting you've heard from someone any specific point that ABS in general is bad. Did they give you any specifics as far as what specific components/parts they were talking about? If you're in the Bozeman, MT area, stop by and see me sometime. I'd love to chat with you folks and see if we can help you two find the right spa. Take care!

Thank you for the quick reply! Could you clarify the Dual Moto Jets or explain how this is different from the earlier model. Could you also explain what I'm looking for in base structure and slats? Thank you again. Any thoughts about the lounge chair for someone my size? The Moto-Massage is a back jet which is placed in the lounge on the Jetsetter. It's a jet that sweeps up and down the length of your back. In older Hot Spring models they used a single Moto-Massage that goes up the center (spine) of your back. From 2006 and forward, the Jetsetter has had the Moto-Massage DX (double). In this case, there are TWO Moto-Massage jets which are aligned so they sweep up and down the muscles on either side of your spine (where all the tension builds up). I've had customers with the Jetsetter who are 6' and seem to use it fine. In all honesty, you can always just try sitting in it if the owner will allow it.

As far as a 2007 model having a full manufacturer warranty, I'd ask for that in writing. Many manufacturer's by routine will START the warranty period once the spa reaches a certain "age" even if it has not been purchased (this is usually 1 full year since it was manufactured). That might be something to contact Bullfrog directly if you're not comfortable with the dealer for any reason. Honestly though, having a "brand new" 2007 model is kind of odd. I suppose it depends on the market you're in, and how quickly your dealer is able to sell spas. But most good dealers don't have many 2 year old "new" models in stock. Generally speaking, I personally would prefer the Jacuzzi over Bullfrog. I'm just not into the plumbing design and the Jetpak system on Bullfrog's spas. And many chemical/water care customers we have that own Bullfrog's have told us they would have bought a Hot Spring if they could go back in time. It seems to depend on which Jetpaks are installed, and what sized jet pumps. Too small of pumps, with high output Jetpaks can create less than ideal jet strength. That's part of the problem with Bullfrog's "design your own" system. Where as other manufacturers design their spas so that the pre-configured jet selection and pump setup is as close to "optimal" as can be. You could also request the opportunity to test soak in each spa and see which one is most comfortable to you.

I don't know how anyone could say Costco makes it easy!! I guess as long as you could care less how comfortable it is!! I guess it's all about perspective & expectations Roger. We have Costco employees buy hot tubs from us, rather than from Costco. Costco as a company makes the "buying" process simple, but you do your own install. If a person assumes that's normal (or doesn't mind doing it themselves) then I suppose it is easy. *shrugs* As a dealer, we coordinate it all. All the customer does is shop, and sign the dotted line. But like I said, it's all about perception, expectations, etc. I love shopping at Costco for lots of things. But there are certain things I wouldn't buy there (and not because of Costco).

I know you asked not to have dealers respond, but since you've only had 1 person reply in the last day I thought I'd give some input anyhow. We've sold quite a few Solana TX models, and people really love them. I've got one lady in particular who thinks hers is the best thing ever. However, I recently had one customer who purchased a TX from us and later decided they wanted more leg room. These were not large people, but they decided they didn't want to play footsie so to speak. They traded their TX back into us for a Hot Spring Jetsetter as the replacement model, and so far are very happy. The TX does very well in our cold Montana winters, so I don't think you'll have any issues. However, wet or dry, get you and the wife to sit inside the TX and decide if it's the right size before you buy. If you two can sit in it and feel comfortable, go for it. Just make sure it's the right size. The TX is pretty unique, and isn't for everyone. But those who buy it are typically very happy with it.

AMG, I don't think your results are too far off. We conducted an experiment last year with one of our Grandee spas (500 gal) on a night when we were literally -20F over night. We shut off all power (DO NOT DO THIS) to the spa at around 6pm, and didn't check the spa again until 9am the next day. Local bank sign indicated it was -20F @ 9am. When we shut down the Grandee, it was showing it was heated up to the set 104F. I put a thermometer in the spa (not 100% accurate granted) the next morning and the body of water was approx 100F. Now, I would not recommend people try this at all, as there are expensive inherent risks in this type of experiment. However, as a dealer we decided to do it (accepting potential financial loss) to test our own product. It's important to note that at temperatures like -20F plumbing and equipment can very well freeze, and could do so pretty quickly. In our case, we replaced a heater since we had also shut down the circulation pump. Had we left the circulation pump powered, we probably wouldn't have seen any damage. Our experience has shown us, that customer with spas that are not heating, but are circulation with the 24/7 circulation pump, very rarely ever obtain additional damage before we can come out to make a heat repair. Circulating warmer water from the body of water through the equipment makes a huge difference. Plus, moving water through the equipment would freeze much, much more slowly than stagnant water. I think there's two factors in the body of water temp. One, the Hot Spring spas are very heavily insulated, reducing heat loss. Also, 500gal of water will cool more slowly than a 300gal body of water. So both the size of the spa, and the insulation play a factor here.

My personal experience as a dealer does give me a bias. However, local customers who've owned Marquis and Hot Spring tell me they like their Hot Spring Spas better. Our Marquis dealer is no longer in business anymore (which isn't specifically because of spa brand). However, my experience has shown me the Hot Spring is an overall better quality, and more reliable spa. And energy efficiency wise, you just can't beat Hot Spring. That Vanguard uses a very efficient 24/hr circulation pump that not only cuts down on energy use and wear and tear, but cuts down on noise as well. That spa runs silently 24/7 unless you actually get in to turn on the jets. Plus, the Hot Spring is a true, 100% no-bypass filter system. Ultimately what that means to you, is when you get in the spa and turn on the jets, 100% of the water MUST pass through the filters before it can pass through equipment, jets, and back into the spa. It's added piece of mind at least, when you get in your spa after a workout, skiing trip, etc. No body oils and sweat and such bypassing filters. When it comes down to it, I think even Hot Spring's competitors would be honest enough to tell you it's hard to go wrong with a Hot Spring.

I'm honestly not sure, however a good point of contact would be DevCon. http://www.devcon.com/contact/ Technical Service: 800-933-8266 Customer Service: 800-626-7226 You can at least ask them if their normal DevCon kit is designed to withstand Chlorine and other corrosives.

LOL

At $4,500 you're probably in the Costco price range. However, I'd urge you to consider a refurbished/used spa from a local dealer instead of Costco spas. They don't tend to have the greatest track record (granted some will disagree with that). Suffice it to say in my local market anyhow, Costco buyers almost always come to us asking for help and eventually buy a spa from us. Check with local dealers and see what brands are offered. Hot Spring / Tiger River would be my first choice, Sundance is good too. In the $4,500 range you could probably look at some of Hot Spring's base model line which is called Hot Spot. Check with your dealer and see if any of them appeal to you.

Best option = Buy New Cover The moisture in that cover will allow heat to escape more quickly, because water conducts heat pretty well. Wet insulation in that cover won't insulate very well. That's not even mentioning the fact that your cover is heavy.

I love the Envoy. The Envoy has the Moto-Massage DX in the lounge seat. I'm not sure how long ago Stuart A sat in a Hot Spring, but the double moto these days does massage the muscles, not the spine anymore. Sit in it and see for yourself though. Other people's comments really don't mean anything once you sit in it.

They also say, "A spa’s life expectancy is approximately ten years." Explain that to all my customers who are using 20 year old hot tubs. I'd be more than happy to sell them new ones. The other thing to keep in mind, is whether they're talking about CD Chips or CD Cells. There's more than one CD system.

Agreed. We had the Silk Balance CEO/Owner come visit us once. He specifically stated it works best with ozone and 24 hour continuous circulation. Not to say it won't work elsewhere, however they recommend different dosages and such. We've been selling it since about April or so I believe. Our customers who have used it are coming back to buy more. So it seems to be doing well. I keep a Vanguard filled in our showroom which I run on Silk Balance. Definitely easier to keep it looking great compared to my other spas which are the typical ozone + chlorine + Nature 2. Sort of subtle, but the sides of the spa have a "squeaky clean" feeling to them all the time. We're having customers use it with Ozone, Nature 2, and about 1 tsp of Chlorine per person after each use (no weekly shock dose). So far it seems to be working very well for folks.

There are ways you can order a cover for the spa made with a tri-fold setup. We did this on one occasion for a customer install for a customer. Trick is however, finding a cover manufacturer who will do so directly to a customer, and do it properly. Doing a tri-fold setup, you may not be able to use the cover lifter anymore either.

We just located this little test kit and have used it a couple times. Seems to work pretty well for determining if your Ozone Generator is producing sufficient levels of Ozone. http://www.waterquality.net/en/spa-ozone-detection/ Where as UV is often a matter of months, CD Cells (which Hot Spring uses) are a matter of years. That's been my experience at least.

I'm not a service technician, but I'm wondering if perhaps something isn't wired right for the incoming power. Double check the inside lid of the black IQ2020 box. That has a big sticker inside it with various wiring diagrams. Make sure you're using the diagram for your model (Vista, "SS"). As Peteyboy mentioned, it's pretty slim change both jet pumps are bad. It's pretty rare I ever see us having to replace a jet pump in a Hot Spring spa in general, since they don't cycle on/off. Let alone two pumps on a 2 year old spa. I'm really leaning to a wiring/power issue. The next thing I'd look at, would be to determine if all the jumper pins on the large circuit board are in the right places for the "SS" or Vista model. One of the Hot Spring techs on this forum can help you figure those out better than I. But that's what I'd be looking at I think.

In my experience, the Hot Spring Sovereign is going to be your most efficient option energy wise. The Sovereign has been one of (if not the) most popular models for Hot Spring for quite a while. As a dealer I can tell you we sell (and have sold) a LOT of Sovereign models over the years. I enjoy the layout of the spa. It offers a great lounge seat with the double Moto-Massage (feel this one, it's awesome for the back), and still has open seating for 4 other adults (while still having a cool down bench). One of the things you might miss going elsewhere, would be the 24/7 circulation method that Hot Spring uses. Instead of using one of the jet pumps to facilitate programmed filtration cycles, and supply water for the heater on demand, you're able to rely on a small circulation pump to allow both to happen silently, and with much less energy use. The 2009 models use an extremely efficient circulation pump which only draws 39W. Cheaper likely than your porch light!! You'll use less energy this way, and frankly save a good amount of wear and tear on the jet pump since it's not turning on/off 10+ times a day (depending on ambient temps). Granted that you're in California, and therefore won't have the extreme cold like we have in Montana, you'll still find the Hot Spring will use less energy than the others (without "Economy" settings!). As far as the Sovereign you're looking at, if you can get that spa for the $7,000 you mentioned I'd say it's a good deal. See about getting a cover lifter and steps for our package though. They'll come in handy (especially a cover lifter!) The other nice thing about getting an early 2009 Phase 1 model, is that the controls on those are the absolute simplest set of controls you can get. Although I really like the new "Phase 2" controls and how they allow for some extra features (TV, etc) I think from a user standpoint the Phase 1 controls are just plain simpler to use. Temperature is set with a simple + / - and displays digitally. The great thing about these controls is that there's absolutely no programming involved, and the buttons do exactly what they say. If you've got family, or ever have visitors, that will also be using the spa you won't need to explain how to use the spa to anyone. If you have any specific questions at all, I'd love to help answer them for you. I've got a busy weekend planned playing in the snow with my kids, but I'll try to respond as quickly as I can. Good luck, happy shopping, and even happier soaking when you get your spa!!