Pool Guru

Maybe we should take a poll to see how many snakes have been found crawled up inside motors and heaters. And we won't even TALK about the stuff that you can find under a spa! Except for this one, which I will talk about. We all get to the point where you S-L-O-W-L-Y open the access panel before working on a spa because you have no idea what has made it's home there. BUT, when I was about to deliver a BRAND NEW spa to a customer, I never expected a surprise. The spa was from Coleman, made in Arizona, and stored in Coleman's outdoor storage yard. I used to have a picture of the rather impressive Black Widow Spider that shipped with the spa, and was inches from various hands but, alas, I have no idea where the pic is now. And now they call me paranoid when I look over every square inch before putting my hand anywhere! Well...maybe I am! John Stinemire Keep the pictures and stories coming. This is what keeps it interesting! Kudos, PC, for starting this thread!

Kapp- First off, I sincerely apologize for being so far off and being so certain in my error! I was totally confident in my response, and am now totally humbled. As for the Nature 2 (I'm going to be very conservative in my reply, now), I have used Nature 2 in my own spa for years, and have found the instructions packed with it to work the best for me. It's good that you switched to using chlorine, because you can't use bromine with Nature 2, but I've never had to maintain a chlorine level in my spa. I just use the MPS, per the package recommended dose, once a week and prior to each use. I only use chlorine as needed (big party, lots of people, etc), or if I get lax with my MPS doses I'll add a small amount of chlorine just to get back ahead of the curve. Of course, if you are reluctant to listen to my advise at this point, I would totally understand! John

Kapp- I know I responded in private concerning my belief that the issue is the pump bearing, considering what you described to me in your message, but I wanted to give you one other piece of advice. If you are near freezing conditions and you can't run the spa, put a worklight in the equipment area with at least a 100 watt bulb in it and close the service door. The bulb will give you 100 watts of heat and will keep the equipment from freezing. That will buy you some time until you find a motor repair company to take a look at the spa motor. Just make sure that the bulb is NOT laying up against anything (plumbing, shell, wires, etc) because it can quickly melt anything it is in contact with. John

I'm not familier with the tape you mentioned but leak detection and liner repair are my primary business. You can buy a liner patch kit at the pool store but instead of the thin, clear patches they include in the kit I would use the glue in the kit with a piece of regular pool liner material which is much thicker and will blend better. That glue is made to set up under water. In my opinion, the "Boxer" brand of glue will give you the best result. When you cut the patch, round all the corners. And when you cut the vinyl patch, tilt the scissors at an angle to create a tapered edge on the patch. That way if people or equipment rub against it in the future they will slide over it instead of catching an edge and pulling it loose. I also found that if you use a cheap wallpaper seam roller to roll out the patch once it's on you will have a much better long-term result. John

Thanks everyone...I will certainly drain and refill within the week, however, I would like to try your idea with the bleach and trouble shoot to see what may be causing this in case it happens with the next round or water. How do you tell if your ozonator is working or not? I did the weekly shock of 4-5 tablespoons yesterday and then checked the test strips a few hours later and of course the Bromine showed up off the charts purple as expected. Now 24 hours later, I checked it again and it is down right in the Perfect zone. I suspect if I check it tomorrow at the same time (as usual) it will show little or no bromine on the strip. So...reading the last two "super shock" suggestions. I want to be sure I put the right kind of bleach and amount for my tub. (by the way there is no baby using it, don't know how that got in the mix, I have an 8 yr old son that comes in once a month maybe) mainly 1 user 4-5 times a week 30 mins or a second mixed it there once a week maybe)...anyway by trying this before changing the water, maybe it will help eliminate a possiblity/problem if this happens again with the next water change. I suppose I should ask this (since this will be our first change as new tub owners) should we stay with the bromine tabs and chems I have been using or start over with bromine/or cholorine powder and "spa perfect" which my neighbor swears by or....? To complicate things we are Americans living in Belgium near a US base and the Belgians only use chlorine powder over here. I shipped all the chemilcals inside the tub this past fall is how I got them here. I can get most online but don't think bromine or chlorine can be shipped or purchased online so may have to go with the "Belgian way" of chlorine powder (once a week they say)...anyway, back to the bleach shock treatment. Regular bleach about how much? and then look for what? (normal bromine levels, water clearing up with jets) thanks again so much for all your input. You all are my lifeline here living in a foreign country and it is next to impossible to ask these questions in french or get any answers at all from the dealers/distributors. Kapp Well, Kapp, not looking for pity here, but just to explain. I'm in the middle of a divorce, and I just had to move out of the house today. For a few days at least, my internet access is going to be limited and sporadic at best. I don't know what your cell service is like where you are, but if you can text message, my cell number is listed on my profile on this website and you are welcome to shoot me a message directly. If nothing else. I would like to hear how things turned out for you after the effort you and I have put into this. Now. as to what to do. Your feeling is right in line with mine. It can't hurt to give it a shot of chlorine shock now before you dump the spa, just to see what kind of reaction you get. It may go far in explaining what is going on, for reference in the future. As to the dose, I would probably start out with 1/4 to 1/3 of a cup (being handicapped as an American, I can't quickly convert that into metric, but I trust you can handle that ;-) ) How the water reacts should give us some idea about what has been going on and, even if it doesn't, it's a cheap way to try to find out, and with no negative side effects. And as to what you should use from here, my personal preference is Nature 2 or something along those lines (plenty of info online, but I would be willing to fill you in some on a future post when I have a little more time). The only issue I can see is whether or not it is available over there. That shouldn't be a problem to ship (I can always do that for you if you need). But you know what they say about "When in Rome...(or in this case, Belgium!). If the system that they are primarily using over there is working, is readily available, and the retailers are familier with it and can educate you some as to the process they use, then I would strongly consider going with the "Home town default", if that makes sense to you. My personal email address is also on my profile, and emails come right through to my cell phone so, if you would like, you can message me that way. Whatever we discuss, I will try to post up here when I can, so others can see what the resolve was. Hoping for all the best for you. It has been my pleasure to help out however I could. Let me know how it goes, if you don't mind! John

I have a few questions. 1. Is the pool a vinyl liner or gunite? 2. Do you have and use a cover pump during the winter? 3. Do you ever notice water loss during summer? 4. How long is it taking for the water to drop during the winter? Thanks, John

Thank you, Richard. Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh. John

1) no not using foam reducers much at all and still getting very little if any foam on top of the water, I think I have used a few capfuls twice during the last 3 months and not at all in the last month. I have tried the clarifier several times (Leisure Time "bright and clear" 2 oz each time) hoping that would combine all those tiny bubbles to be caught in filter. 2)No it was not a problem in the beginning, the water was crystal clear with or without jets on 3)I am using Leiseure Time "Renew" "non cholorie shock oxidizer" bottle says 32% Potassium Peroxymonosulfate and 68% "other ingredients (whatever that means) Approx 1 time a week 4 tablespoons of powder (says 2 oz) (mixed in the current tub water a container prior to dumping in tub) 4) Our tub is 345 Gallons. Just did another test strip test and all levels very good maybe a tiny bit on the low end of "ideal" for al and ph but again "0" bromine showing on strip and looking at the floater with bromine tabs in it, they are definately dissolving in the water. I used two new tabs and the leftover small pieces from the week(s) before so bromine IS dissolving in the water. Still have the "Milky water" the second I turn on the jets. I did think of one other variable I should mention that i just thought of. I did try one capful of "spa fragrance" about a month ago. I am looking at the bottle I used and it only used a very small amount (1oz) once to try it out. Haven't used it since but thinking it was such a small amount once it couldn't be a factor in the equation but maybe. Thanks Kapp OK, Kapp. I've just called in a friend and expert from these forums (chem geek aka Richard) to give this a review and his feedback as well, and he may be posting here after this post, so you may want to wait just a bit on this until we put our heads together. But here is my take, subject to his observations. Hillbilly Hot Tub mentioned TDS earlier, which is a possibility, but he also suggested high organics in the water which is more the direction I'm leaning towards. Because of the fact that you are having issues keeping bromine in the water, this is the way we need to go first. I want you to give the spa a good shot of CHLORINE. This is going to be in liquid form aka bleach. That way it will get in faster, do it's job, go away, and you are contributing a little less to any Total Dissolved Solids that you may already have in the water. I want you to use straight, basic chlorine bleach - don't use any type of non-chlorine bleach, all color bleach, bleach with whiteners and brighteners, lemon fresh bleach, or any of the many other distortions out there. It can be a brand name, like Clorox, or it can be generic from Sam's Club, but the ingredient needs to show Sodium Hypochlorite. I am going to ask Chem Geek to comment on the dosage though, for your size spa, I'm thinking around 1/4 cup to start, added while the spa is running. If I'm right, the water may actually look a little worse immediately after you add the chlorine and while it's doing it's job but it should clear in short order. If this does not work then the next step is to look a high TDS issue, which would mean changing the water in your spa. You also need to make certain that you bank the water with bomine salts when you first start out with fresh water in the spa. Again, I would like Chem Geek to expound on that a little further. John

Customer stated that he has a Polaris 280. John So he needs to look at the polaris then. Look, if the water is clear, It's NOT the pump or equip. case closed. How is a pool return going to sweep dirt from the steps area to the main drain? I understand your position, but I beg to differ. There may well be issues with the Polaris that need addressing, but there appears to be a general and much larger design issue which either needs to be identified or ruled out first. Of course the pool return isn't going to sweep the steps (duh!), but we can't be over simplistic about this either. The Polaris can only work with what the system provides it. If there is insufficient system flow, the Polaris can starve and underperform. I don't believe that you are considering the whole picture here, taking into account the broad scope of issues this customer is experiencing. I will be speaking with him on the phone over the weekend, and I promise to post the results of our conversation. Case NOT closed. Sorry! Jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. When we get more zealous about finding quick, pat answers than we are about taking the time to dig deep and look at the true issues, we cease to provide a valuable service to the customer and we no longer function as true professionals. Many problems don't fit the box that we try to force them into, and we must think outside that box. John

TexasMax~ Head restriction is cumulative and affects the performance of the entire system. Translated - With an apparent majority of your plumbing being 2", any 1.5" runs create an unnecessary restriction and increase in head. This is not just a weakest link scenario, where the maximum flow you can get through any one point is the maximum flow you get through the system, but instead is a total of the restrictions and resistance in the system and includes pipe size, overall length of run, 90 and 45 elbows, tees, valves, backflow prevention valves, eyeball size in the returns, filter size, pump head, etc. As an example, take a single 50' long 1/2"ID garden hose and, with the faucet wide open, measure how long it takes to fill a 5 gal. bucket. Now take four identical 50' long 1/2"ID garden hoses, link them together to create a single 200' hose, and do the same measurement. Although you have not reduced the inside diameter of the run, you will find that the water flow will be reduced to a near trickle with the addition of 150' of hose. A similar effect would happen if you took two linked 50' 1/2"ID hoses and replaced one of them with a 50' 3/8"ID hose. The restriction would reduce the overall output, but two linked 3/8" hoses would be even more restrictive. I hope my explaination makes sense. Long anwer to a short question, but what I'm getting at is that it would be far easier and much cheaper for you to start out by just replacing the undersized PVC pipe first and see what your net gain is. If you eventually swap out your filter system you will want to upsize that plumbing anyway, so why not try that first? And try to keep elbows and any other restrictions to an absolute minimum. You may find that that upsize is all you needed. And yes, swapping out the equipment for 2" will also give you an increase, but it may or may not be as much as you hope for, and the cost may not be justified. And the fine silt bag on the Polaris is probably a good idea as well. John

John, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I mentioned the floating feeder just as an example that it can cause problems too. I didn't mean to imply that an inline chlorinator, properly placed at the end of the equipment chain, was bad. IF you have to have a place to use Trichlor tabs, then an inline feeder is the better way to go. My only point was that the continued use of Trichlor ANYWHERE will often lead to a buildup of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) and that makes chlorine less effective unless you proportionately raise the FC level and that this often leads to algae unless you use a weekly algaecide or phosphate remover at extra cost. An inline feeder makes one think one can just use Trichlor in a semi-automated way and forget about it, but the CYA buildup is real. The following are chemical facts that most people don't know and aren't taught by the pool industry and are independent of product concentration or size of pool: For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm. For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm. For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm. Richard Richard- I sincerely apologize to you for any misunderstanding. If you reread my post, you will find that I am in full and total agreement with you. As a matter of fact, every post of yours that I have come across so far has left me with a high level of respect for your accuracy, understanding, experience, detailed explainations and conclusions - the signs of a true professional. My respectful disagreement was with information found in a post made by someone else. No offense was intended, and I would be happy to go back in and edit my post for clarity if you feel it would be clearer. Thanks. John

Customer stated that he has a Polaris 280. John

Well, old school "bulb tstats" also never touch water unless, of course, the thermowell has corroded away. Which, by the way, would explain the whole problem in the first place. As to a software recalibration...nope. Not possible. John

You do believe in issuing a challenge, don't you! Well, here goes. Let me preface by saying that it's refreshing to work with someone who has some idea about what is going on. Thank you for the clarity and detail in your post. Now, to address your specific questions. It sounds as though the pump and filter system are of adequate size and type, and the methods you are employing to swap filters and maintain the system are sound. Without actually seeing the system it's difficult to diagnose, but it sounds like it could be a general design flaw. My first concern, as with you, is with the reduction in pipe size. With the majority of your plumbing being 2", it makes me wonder why the 1.5" section was installed. A reduction in head and an increase in flow would certainly be realized by upsizing that section, but to what extent it would help I can't say. Although it's difficult to be definitive, I have my doubts that it would fully resolve your issues, but if you can keep the cost to a minimum it may be worth a try and it surely won't hurt. I agree that it does not sound like a particle size issue, so a swap to DE does not seem warranted. You question why the filter isn't catching all of the debris when you drain and spray the spa. That part is not clear. Are you indicating that when you drain and spray the spa you can see debris reentering the pool/spa? Are we talking lightweight debris, like a loose, dusty, easily disturbed type, or something heavier like dirt and sand? As for the steps, they can often become a reservoir for dirt collection, and a general circulation issue will only exacerbate the problem. The concave bottom in the spa sounds like another poor design or construction issue. That one may be a bit more difficult to resolve. John

Over my years of experience, I've come to realize something. "Years of experience" doesn't necessarily mean you are doing it right. It just means you've been doing it the same way for years. Nitro, I couldn't have said that better myself!!! WTG! I hope you don't mind, but I think that's going to become a regular quote for me to use with my customers! My biggest battles have never been with a lack of knowledge on the part of customers, but with trying to re-educate them after they got some misinformation from other "professionals" (and I use the word loosely). And, sadly, that misinformation is often given to these customers with a high degree of self-confidence stemming from same "years of experience". But you can always spot a TRUE professional! THANKS. John

Thank you, Richard. I am in total agreement with you. Placing the chlorine in the skimmer is never a good idea or a recommended method. And whether the water is balanced or not, as suggested by ps558, has nothing to do with that. I also have to respectfully disagree with you, ps558, concerning offline vs. the inline chlorinators. Yes, offline is an easier install but, as I mentioned earlier, easier does not necessarily translate into better. A permanent installation will nearly always give you a more controllable and secure installation. Offline chlorinators work on pressure differential between different sections of the plumbing and filtration system and, as such, are much more subject to fluctuations due to filter pressure, pump load, etc. Whereas an inline chlorinator, though still affected by flow rate, is much more similar to the method that this pool owner is currently familier and comfortable with - placing the tabs in the skimmer. The same dynamics of erosion and flow come into play with fewer complications. So basically, any type of chlorinator is a better choice than tabs or sticks in the skimmer but, given a choice, inline is better than offline. I do agree with you, ps558, on the chlorine generator option. When a chlorine generator system is understood, installed properly and maintained properly, it really can reduce the overall effort and headaches. But, given this particular customer's post and his expressed concerns about the cost of a chlorinator installation, I have my doubts that the expense of installing a chlorine generator system would be a realistic consideration. Of course that is simply an assumption on my part and I may be totally wrong about that. John

Kapp~ OK, let's see where we are. The reason I asked about the foam is that standing foam is generally a good indicator of several possible issues with the water. My first thought was high TDS and/or high organic level, just as HillbillyHT is indicating, and I'm still leaning a bit in that direction. But it's still inconclusive and I'm still not convinced. Here's why. High organic levels in the water could explain the rapid dissipation of the shock and the constant low bromine levels, and the constant low bromine levels could be a contributing factor to a high organic level. However, that said, high organics will generally present themselves as standing foam as well. That is, unless you are regularly using a DEFOAMER in your spa. High TDS can also cause this but, again, usually presents with standing foam and a scum line around the top of the spa. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids, and results from everything you have dissolved into the water in your spa. It's just like when you add salt to a pan of water. You can keep adding salt to the pan of water until the water can't hold anymore and the added salt just lays in the bottom of the pan. Same with the spa. As you add balancing chemicals, sanitizers, scents, debris from the skin, etc, eventually the water reaches a point of saturation where it has difficulty holding anything else in solution. That said, I really don't suspect that as your problem. Just to make sure we're on track here, could you give me some feedback on the following questions? 1. Are you regularly using defoamer in the spa and, if so, how often do you add it? Just as you need it or as a regular part of your maintenance regimen? 2. Do you recall this being a problem when your spa water was newly added? 3. What are you using to shock the spa? What I'm interested in here is the chemical, not the brand name ie. monopersulfate (non-chlorine shock), calcium hypochlorite, etc. And approximately how much shock are you adding? 4. How many gallons of water in your spa? Kapp, I'm strongly leaning toward the super shock that Hillbilly Hot Tub suggested, but I will feel much more certain about my conclusions after getting your answers to these questions. And a quick note to HillbillyHT. Although I've been in the business longer than many of these techs have been alive, and have helped out on many online pool/spa forums, I'm new on this particular forum and the folks that frequent here. I was just reading some of your other posts in some of the other threads, and it warms my heart to know that I'm not the only detail driven, chemically fluent overzealous geek out there. There is someone else like me! KUDOS! Yes, it makes for wordy answers, but if you teach folks all you can and they only remember half, it's still more than they knew when you got started. My hat is off to you! John

Just as a little postscript, the question of calibration was mentioned earlier in this thread. As a general FYI to anyone following this post, most mechanical thermostats do have a calibration screw. There have been many times over years when I have had to go in and replace a thermostat that another tech had recalibrated. Recalibration (setting the old T-stat to heat to a higher temp) is never a good idea because what you gain in range you lose in accuracy. It is very likely that you could end up with an overheat situation, especially if the high-limit is also failing (since the thermostat and the high-limit can both work in a similar manner, and they are likely the same age). The cause of the lower temp on the thermostat is usually either corrosion or an eventual breakdown of the expansion gases used inside the thermostat. As demonstrated here, it is usually relatively cheap and fairly easy to replace. John

Kapp & Leland- Are you getting any kind of excessive standing foam on the top of the water while the jets are running, or is it just the milky look in the water? John

Diane- It's impossible to say whether you'll be able to maintain the water quality in the pool, but my concern would be more toward staining and plumbing. In my 40 years of working with pools, there have been very few pool covers and cover installations that don't let some degree of debris through. Even a fine organic silt, if left to lay on the bottom of the pool, would have the potential to deeply stain the gunite My feeling is that you may be able to avoid the USE of the pool all summer, but leave yourself open to the possibility that you may have to open and close it. By opening the pool at some point you will be able to vacuum, filter and circulate. By keeping the cover on you can avoid a daily filter run because the debris load will be minimal. So, you can minimize the cost to operate the pool during the summer, but you would still need to filter and vacuum some, circulate the water when you introduce chemicals, and you would still have a pool closing at the end of the season. My other, and bigger, concern with not opening the pool at all is that I wouldn't trust last years winterization to hold you through two winters. If there has been ANY kind of plug failure, regardless of how small, getting through one winter is usually ok because only a small amount of water would enter the pipes over the course of perhaps three to four months. But to trust that it has held tight for two winters is a gamble that I personally would not take. I've seen what can happen and it's not pretty and it's rarely inexpensive. The cost to run the filter for a few minutes over the summer, and the cost of another pool closing is very cheap insurance to protect the finish of the pool and the integrity of your underground plumbing and equipment. John

Absolutely! Chlorine tabs in the skimmer basket are easy, but easy isn't always best. Chlorine is highly corrosive, and that highly concentrated chlorine is constantly being pulled from the skimmer directly through your pump and filter. And, hopefully, you don't have a heater on the pool, because the chlorine can destroy the heat exchanger in very short order. I have replaced many filters that died a premature death, including filters with stainless tanks that are now hole ridden. The seal in the rear of your pump is also susceptible and, when it goes, water leaking from the rear of the pump can quickly destroy the motor if it is not replaced. Also, if there is any kind of backwash valve, including 6-way valves, the chlorine will destroy the gaskets and orings inside. AND, when your filter is not running and the chlorine is still sitting in the basket, that concentrated chlorine flows out of the skimmer front and cascades down the side of the pool, corroding stainless skimmer faceplate screws, bleaching and destroying vinyl liners, softening and corroding gunite and plaster, etc. Get the idea? On the other hand, a properly installed chlorine feeder will introduce the concentrated chlorine into your system AFTER the pump, filter, backwash valve and heater, so it goes directly into the pool causing little or no damage. So, besides the obvious advantage of being able to control the rate of feed, there are many more less obvious but much more important advantages to having a chlorine feeder installed. Trust me, I promise you that it will cost you much, MUCH less in the long run. John

@my pools leak sometimes You've answered some other "leak" posts on this forum that are 2 1/2 years old, one of which was nothing more than a link to your website! If your plan is to come here to help consumers with valuable information then, by all means, the folks here will welcome you. But if your plan is to come here to spam, then please take it elsewhere. That type of activity will do nothing more than devalue the forum in general. If that was all any of us did, why would the customer even bother to come here in the first place. They can see that kind of clutter anywhere else. If you have a problem with my opinion, please feel free to post it here or to send me an email. John

@my pools leak sometimes Answering questions with good information is helpful to customers, but simply spamming by answering multiple 2 1/2 year old questions with nothing more than a link to your website is not helpful and not appreciated. If you have something to say, please stick around and answer a few questions. A link to your website in your signature line is fine when the answer has some benefit. But if you are just here to spam and run, then it is less appreciated by all, especially the pros! That type of activity will do nothing but bring down the quality of the board and the benefit to the consumer. If you have a problem with my opinion, please feel free to post it here or to send me an email. John

@my pools leak sometimes Answering questions with good information is helpful to customers, but simply spamming by answering 2 1/2 year old questions with nothing more than a link to your website is not helpful and not appreciated. If you have something to say, please stick around and answer a few questions. A link to your website in your signature line is fine when the answer has some benefit. But if you are just here to spam and run, then it is less appreciated by all, especially the pros! That type of activity will do nothing but bring down the quality of the board and the benefit to the consumer. If you have a problem with my opinion, please feel free to post it here or to send me an email. John