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Pool Guru

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  • Birthday 10/04/1955

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  1. Maybe we should take a poll to see how many snakes have been found crawled up inside motors and heaters. And we won't even TALK about the stuff that you can find under a spa! Except for this one, which I will talk about. We all get to the point where you S-L-O-W-L-Y open the access panel before working on a spa because you have no idea what has made it's home there. BUT, when I was about to deliver a BRAND NEW spa to a customer, I never expected a surprise. The spa was from Coleman, made in Arizona, and stored in Coleman's outdoor storage yard. I used to have a picture of the rather impressive Black Widow Spider that shipped with the spa, and was inches from various hands but, alas, I have no idea where the pic is now. And now they call me paranoid when I look over every square inch before putting my hand anywhere! Well...maybe I am! John Stinemire Keep the pictures and stories coming. This is what keeps it interesting! Kudos, PC, for starting this thread!
  2. Kapp- First off, I sincerely apologize for being so far off and being so certain in my error! I was totally confident in my response, and am now totally humbled. As for the Nature 2 (I'm going to be very conservative in my reply, now), I have used Nature 2 in my own spa for years, and have found the instructions packed with it to work the best for me. It's good that you switched to using chlorine, because you can't use bromine with Nature 2, but I've never had to maintain a chlorine level in my spa. I just use the MPS, per the package recommended dose, once a week and prior to each use. I only use chlorine as needed (big party, lots of people, etc), or if I get lax with my MPS doses I'll add a small amount of chlorine just to get back ahead of the curve. Of course, if you are reluctant to listen to my advise at this point, I would totally understand! John
  3. Kapp- I know I responded in private concerning my belief that the issue is the pump bearing, considering what you described to me in your message, but I wanted to give you one other piece of advice. If you are near freezing conditions and you can't run the spa, put a worklight in the equipment area with at least a 100 watt bulb in it and close the service door. The bulb will give you 100 watts of heat and will keep the equipment from freezing. That will buy you some time until you find a motor repair company to take a look at the spa motor. Just make sure that the bulb is NOT laying up against anything (plumbing, shell, wires, etc) because it can quickly melt anything it is in contact with. John
  4. I'm not familier with the tape you mentioned but leak detection and liner repair are my primary business. You can buy a liner patch kit at the pool store but instead of the thin, clear patches they include in the kit I would use the glue in the kit with a piece of regular pool liner material which is much thicker and will blend better. That glue is made to set up under water. In my opinion, the "Boxer" brand of glue will give you the best result. When you cut the patch, round all the corners. And when you cut the vinyl patch, tilt the scissors at an angle to create a tapered edge on the patch. That way if people or equipment rub against it in the future they will slide over it instead of catching an edge and pulling it loose. I also found that if you use a cheap wallpaper seam roller to roll out the patch once it's on you will have a much better long-term result. John
  5. Thanks everyone...I will certainly drain and refill within the week, however, I would like to try your idea with the bleach and trouble shoot to see what may be causing this in case it happens with the next round or water. How do you tell if your ozonator is working or not? I did the weekly shock of 4-5 tablespoons yesterday and then checked the test strips a few hours later and of course the Bromine showed up off the charts purple as expected. Now 24 hours later, I checked it again and it is down right in the Perfect zone. I suspect if I check it tomorrow at the same time (as usual) it will show little or no bromine on the strip. So...reading the last two "super shock" suggestions. I want to be sure I put the right kind of bleach and amount for my tub. (by the way there is no baby using it, don't know how that got in the mix, I have an 8 yr old son that comes in once a month maybe) mainly 1 user 4-5 times a week 30 mins or a second mixed it there once a week maybe)...anyway by trying this before changing the water, maybe it will help eliminate a possiblity/problem if this happens again with the next water change. I suppose I should ask this (since this will be our first change as new tub owners) should we stay with the bromine tabs and chems I have been using or start over with bromine/or cholorine powder and "spa perfect" which my neighbor swears by or....? To complicate things we are Americans living in Belgium near a US base and the Belgians only use chlorine powder over here. I shipped all the chemilcals inside the tub this past fall is how I got them here. I can get most online but don't think bromine or chlorine can be shipped or purchased online so may have to go with the "Belgian way" of chlorine powder (once a week they say)...anyway, back to the bleach shock treatment. Regular bleach about how much? and then look for what? (normal bromine levels, water clearing up with jets) thanks again so much for all your input. You all are my lifeline here living in a foreign country and it is next to impossible to ask these questions in french or get any answers at all from the dealers/distributors. Kapp Well, Kapp, not looking for pity here, but just to explain. I'm in the middle of a divorce, and I just had to move out of the house today. For a few days at least, my internet access is going to be limited and sporadic at best. I don't know what your cell service is like where you are, but if you can text message, my cell number is listed on my profile on this website and you are welcome to shoot me a message directly. If nothing else. I would like to hear how things turned out for you after the effort you and I have put into this. Now. as to what to do. Your feeling is right in line with mine. It can't hurt to give it a shot of chlorine shock now before you dump the spa, just to see what kind of reaction you get. It may go far in explaining what is going on, for reference in the future. As to the dose, I would probably start out with 1/4 to 1/3 of a cup (being handicapped as an American, I can't quickly convert that into metric, but I trust you can handle that ;-) ) How the water reacts should give us some idea about what has been going on and, even if it doesn't, it's a cheap way to try to find out, and with no negative side effects. And as to what you should use from here, my personal preference is Nature 2 or something along those lines (plenty of info online, but I would be willing to fill you in some on a future post when I have a little more time). The only issue I can see is whether or not it is available over there. That shouldn't be a problem to ship (I can always do that for you if you need). But you know what they say about "When in Rome...(or in this case, Belgium!). If the system that they are primarily using over there is working, is readily available, and the retailers are familier with it and can educate you some as to the process they use, then I would strongly consider going with the "Home town default", if that makes sense to you. My personal email address is also on my profile, and emails come right through to my cell phone so, if you would like, you can message me that way. Whatever we discuss, I will try to post up here when I can, so others can see what the resolve was. Hoping for all the best for you. It has been my pleasure to help out however I could. Let me know how it goes, if you don't mind! John
  6. I have a few questions. 1. Is the pool a vinyl liner or gunite? 2. Do you have and use a cover pump during the winter? 3. Do you ever notice water loss during summer? 4. How long is it taking for the water to drop during the winter? Thanks, John
  7. Thank you, Richard. Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh. John
  8. 1) no not using foam reducers much at all and still getting very little if any foam on top of the water, I think I have used a few capfuls twice during the last 3 months and not at all in the last month. I have tried the clarifier several times (Leisure Time "bright and clear" 2 oz each time) hoping that would combine all those tiny bubbles to be caught in filter. 2)No it was not a problem in the beginning, the water was crystal clear with or without jets on 3)I am using Leiseure Time "Renew" "non cholorie shock oxidizer" bottle says 32% Potassium Peroxymonosulfate and 68% "other ingredients (whatever that means) Approx 1 time a week 4 tablespoons of powder (says 2 oz) (mixed in the current tub water a container prior to dumping in tub) 4) Our tub is 345 Gallons. Just did another test strip test and all levels very good maybe a tiny bit on the low end of "ideal" for al and ph but again "0" bromine showing on strip and looking at the floater with bromine tabs in it, they are definately dissolving in the water. I used two new tabs and the leftover small pieces from the week(s) before so bromine IS dissolving in the water. Still have the "Milky water" the second I turn on the jets. I did think of one other variable I should mention that i just thought of. I did try one capful of "spa fragrance" about a month ago. I am looking at the bottle I used and it only used a very small amount (1oz) once to try it out. Haven't used it since but thinking it was such a small amount once it couldn't be a factor in the equation but maybe. Thanks Kapp OK, Kapp. I've just called in a friend and expert from these forums (chem geek aka Richard) to give this a review and his feedback as well, and he may be posting here after this post, so you may want to wait just a bit on this until we put our heads together. But here is my take, subject to his observations. Hillbilly Hot Tub mentioned TDS earlier, which is a possibility, but he also suggested high organics in the water which is more the direction I'm leaning towards. Because of the fact that you are having issues keeping bromine in the water, this is the way we need to go first. I want you to give the spa a good shot of CHLORINE. This is going to be in liquid form aka bleach. That way it will get in faster, do it's job, go away, and you are contributing a little less to any Total Dissolved Solids that you may already have in the water. I want you to use straight, basic chlorine bleach - don't use any type of non-chlorine bleach, all color bleach, bleach with whiteners and brighteners, lemon fresh bleach, or any of the many other distortions out there. It can be a brand name, like Clorox, or it can be generic from Sam's Club, but the ingredient needs to show Sodium Hypochlorite. I am going to ask Chem Geek to comment on the dosage though, for your size spa, I'm thinking around 1/4 cup to start, added while the spa is running. If I'm right, the water may actually look a little worse immediately after you add the chlorine and while it's doing it's job but it should clear in short order. If this does not work then the next step is to look a high TDS issue, which would mean changing the water in your spa. You also need to make certain that you bank the water with bomine salts when you first start out with fresh water in the spa. Again, I would like Chem Geek to expound on that a little further. John
  9. Customer stated that he has a Polaris 280. John So he needs to look at the polaris then. Look, if the water is clear, It's NOT the pump or equip. case closed. How is a pool return going to sweep dirt from the steps area to the main drain? I understand your position, but I beg to differ. There may well be issues with the Polaris that need addressing, but there appears to be a general and much larger design issue which either needs to be identified or ruled out first. Of course the pool return isn't going to sweep the steps (duh!), but we can't be over simplistic about this either. The Polaris can only work with what the system provides it. If there is insufficient system flow, the Polaris can starve and underperform. I don't believe that you are considering the whole picture here, taking into account the broad scope of issues this customer is experiencing. I will be speaking with him on the phone over the weekend, and I promise to post the results of our conversation. Case NOT closed. Sorry! Jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. When we get more zealous about finding quick, pat answers than we are about taking the time to dig deep and look at the true issues, we cease to provide a valuable service to the customer and we no longer function as true professionals. Many problems don't fit the box that we try to force them into, and we must think outside that box. John
  10. TexasMax~ Head restriction is cumulative and affects the performance of the entire system. Translated - With an apparent majority of your plumbing being 2", any 1.5" runs create an unnecessary restriction and increase in head. This is not just a weakest link scenario, where the maximum flow you can get through any one point is the maximum flow you get through the system, but instead is a total of the restrictions and resistance in the system and includes pipe size, overall length of run, 90 and 45 elbows, tees, valves, backflow prevention valves, eyeball size in the returns, filter size, pump head, etc. As an example, take a single 50' long 1/2"ID garden hose and, with the faucet wide open, measure how long it takes to fill a 5 gal. bucket. Now take four identical 50' long 1/2"ID garden hoses, link them together to create a single 200' hose, and do the same measurement. Although you have not reduced the inside diameter of the run, you will find that the water flow will be reduced to a near trickle with the addition of 150' of hose. A similar effect would happen if you took two linked 50' 1/2"ID hoses and replaced one of them with a 50' 3/8"ID hose. The restriction would reduce the overall output, but two linked 3/8" hoses would be even more restrictive. I hope my explaination makes sense. Long anwer to a short question, but what I'm getting at is that it would be far easier and much cheaper for you to start out by just replacing the undersized PVC pipe first and see what your net gain is. If you eventually swap out your filter system you will want to upsize that plumbing anyway, so why not try that first? And try to keep elbows and any other restrictions to an absolute minimum. You may find that that upsize is all you needed. And yes, swapping out the equipment for 2" will also give you an increase, but it may or may not be as much as you hope for, and the cost may not be justified. And the fine silt bag on the Polaris is probably a good idea as well. John
  11. John, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I mentioned the floating feeder just as an example that it can cause problems too. I didn't mean to imply that an inline chlorinator, properly placed at the end of the equipment chain, was bad. IF you have to have a place to use Trichlor tabs, then an inline feeder is the better way to go. My only point was that the continued use of Trichlor ANYWHERE will often lead to a buildup of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) and that makes chlorine less effective unless you proportionately raise the FC level and that this often leads to algae unless you use a weekly algaecide or phosphate remover at extra cost. An inline feeder makes one think one can just use Trichlor in a semi-automated way and forget about it, but the CYA buildup is real. The following are chemical facts that most people don't know and aren't taught by the pool industry and are independent of product concentration or size of pool: For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm. For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm. For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm. Richard Richard- I sincerely apologize to you for any misunderstanding. If you reread my post, you will find that I am in full and total agreement with you. As a matter of fact, every post of yours that I have come across so far has left me with a high level of respect for your accuracy, understanding, experience, detailed explainations and conclusions - the signs of a true professional. My respectful disagreement was with information found in a post made by someone else. No offense was intended, and I would be happy to go back in and edit my post for clarity if you feel it would be clearer. Thanks. John
  12. Customer stated that he has a Polaris 280. John
  13. Well, old school "bulb tstats" also never touch water unless, of course, the thermowell has corroded away. Which, by the way, would explain the whole problem in the first place. As to a software recalibration...nope. Not possible. John
  14. You do believe in issuing a challenge, don't you! Well, here goes. Let me preface by saying that it's refreshing to work with someone who has some idea about what is going on. Thank you for the clarity and detail in your post. Now, to address your specific questions. It sounds as though the pump and filter system are of adequate size and type, and the methods you are employing to swap filters and maintain the system are sound. Without actually seeing the system it's difficult to diagnose, but it sounds like it could be a general design flaw. My first concern, as with you, is with the reduction in pipe size. With the majority of your plumbing being 2", it makes me wonder why the 1.5" section was installed. A reduction in head and an increase in flow would certainly be realized by upsizing that section, but to what extent it would help I can't say. Although it's difficult to be definitive, I have my doubts that it would fully resolve your issues, but if you can keep the cost to a minimum it may be worth a try and it surely won't hurt. I agree that it does not sound like a particle size issue, so a swap to DE does not seem warranted. You question why the filter isn't catching all of the debris when you drain and spray the spa. That part is not clear. Are you indicating that when you drain and spray the spa you can see debris reentering the pool/spa? Are we talking lightweight debris, like a loose, dusty, easily disturbed type, or something heavier like dirt and sand? As for the steps, they can often become a reservoir for dirt collection, and a general circulation issue will only exacerbate the problem. The concave bottom in the spa sounds like another poor design or construction issue. That one may be a bit more difficult to resolve. John
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