Bromine+foam = Confused Help?

[Marmaduke]

Ok, I am a newbie and not a chemist.

I have had a hot tub for almost a month now and have refilled once.

We started out using Bromine tablets (in the reservoir where the filter is, not in a floatie), and using a MPS non chlorine shock once a week. Adjusting the PH levels with Baking Soda and trying to get rid of the foam with Isopropanol (read that it works same as foam away somewhere).

We could not get rid of the foam, so we emptied the tub and wiped the entire inside down with bleach and water, then refilled with new water adding 2 bromine tablets and adjusting the PH and TA.

We also heard that if we are using the Bromine tablets with an ozonator (which our tub has), you don't need to shock the tub, so we haven't shocked at all.

The foam is back when the jets are on high and the water is not clear enough to see through while the jest are on high. Should the water be clear enough to see the bottom of the tub when the jets are on high? When the jets are on low the water is fairly clear.

There are so many different methods and chemicals and/or household products to use and advice on what to do and what not to do...it is frustrating and confusing for someone who just wants to use the hot tub with as little fuss as possible.

Can I get the tub in balance and get rid of the foam or should I start fresh again?

What method can I use with Bromine tablets?

More info...

just did a test and here are my results:

PH = >8.0

TA = 90ppm

Free Bromine = 20.0 ?

Hardness = 50ppm

I put 1.5tbs of PH down in and appox. 1/2tbs of Baking Soda

Going to check levels again in about 4hrs.

Help!!

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Ok, I am a newbie and not a chemist.

I have had a hot tub for almost a month now and have refilled once.

We started out using Bromine tablets (in the reservoir where the filter is, not in a floatie), and using a MPS non chlorine shock once a week. Adjusting the PH levels with Baking Soda and trying to get rid of the foam with Isopropanol (read that it works same as foam away somewhere).

We could not get rid of the foam, so we emptied the tub and wiped the entire inside down with bleach and water, then refilled with new water adding 2 bromine tablets and adjusting the PH and TA.

We also heard that if we are using the Bromine tablets with an ozonator (which our tub has), you don't need to shock the tub, so we haven't shocked at all.

The foam is back when the jets are on high and the water is not clear enough to see through while the jest are on high. Should the water be clear enough to see the bottom of the tub when the jets are on high? When the jets are on low the water is fairly clear.

There are so many different methods and chemicals and/or household products to use and advice on what to do and what not to do...it is frustrating and confusing for someone who just wants to use the hot tub with as little fuss as possible.

Can I get the tub in balance and get rid of the foam or should I start fresh again?

What method can I use with Bromine tablets?

More info...

just did a test and here are my results:

PH = >8.0

TA = 90ppm

Free Bromine = 20.0 ?

Hardness = 50ppm

I put 1.5tbs of PH down in and appox. 1/2tbs of Baking Soda

Going to check levels again in about 4hrs.

Help!!

First, As you have addressed, your PH is to high, bromine is also way to high. This will cause foam.

You also should not be putting bromine tablets into the spa basket. Bromine is low on the PH scale, so that low PH water is going right to your pumps and heater. It also causes the tablets to dissolve way to rapidly. You need a floater

You are adding chemicals and home remidies without understanding how they each effect one another. There are several write ups in this forum on how to maintain a bromine tub. I would start by first reading these so you have an understanding on how bromine works (did you Know it renews itself when shocked for example) and a feel for your other paramiters.

You are in a battle to lower the PH, but then add baking soda which will raise not only alk, but ph too. Reading the complete rundown on bromine will help dramatically.

If you do out the saturation index to the readings you have now at 104 degrees, if you bring the PH down to7.8-7.9 and keep the Alk where it is, you would be at zero for the index.

Also, when the jets are on, it is mixing air with the water, think about carbonation, and you won't be able to see the bottom of the tub. If it clears when you shut the jets off, it is fine.

Also, is the dealer you purchased the tub from knowledgable about water chemistry? Do they have a water testing station? You may want their help untill you get an understanding to what is going on.

Excuse my spelling errors, been one of those weeks...

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I found this write up on another forum, trouble free pools, the author of this write up is waterbear and he gives a detailed explanation to bromine........... This should help..............

waterbear wrote:

There is a lot if misinformation on the proper way to use Bromine so I hope this primer is helpful.

First, you need to establish a bromide reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do it by themselves but it can take literally weeks until enough dissolve. Some people crush about 6 of them up and put them in the water on each water change to achieve this but it really is easier and cheaper to add a packet or two of sodium bromide! It is available from such companies as HTH, Leisure Time, Robarb (Rendezvous), and others. Bromine tablets contain both bromine and chlorine to oxidize the bromine into active sanitizer. (There is one that I know of on the market that contains MPS instead of chlorine but it works exactly the same way.) If you do not add the sodium bromide and just put in bromine tabs then you will be starting with a chlorine system until enough bromide dissolves in the water.

There are basically 2 ways to do a bromine system--2-step and 3-step. In the 2-step system you add the sodium bromide to the water to the proper concentration, then add oxidizer on a regular basis (usually, chlorine, MPS, or ozone, or a combination of them) to oxidize the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, your active sanitizer. It's pretty easy but does require a bit of attention daily to maintain the bromine levels in the water.

A 3-step system is identical with the addition of bromine tabs in a floater. This will help maintain a more constant bromine level in the water with less maintenance but otherwise there is no difference. The three step system costs more since the bromine tablets are the most expensive part of this equation. The dimethylhydantoin in the tablets seems to have a similar (but not identical) function in a bromine system as CYA does in a chlorine system. It tends to stablilize it but, like CYA, too much is not good. Not that much info is readily available on the effects of dimethylhydantion other than that it makes the bromine more difficult to destroy, a consideration if you ever want to switch over to a chlorine system.

If you add sodium bromide to your water and have an ozonator you might be able to achieve the constant bromine level without the floater since the ozone is constantly oxidizing the bromide while it is on. However, you might deplete the bromide reserve quickly this way, leading to a shorter time between drain and refills. Also, ozone can cause bromates to form in your water. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water.

You still need to superoxidize (shock), usually about once a week to destroy organics in the water whether you chose the 2-step or 3-step method.. I prefer plain, unscented laundry bleach (5.25%) for shocking a bromine spa. 1 cup per 250-300 gallons is about right. If you use Ultra bleach (6%) then you need about 3/4 cup. You can also use 12.5% pool chlorine at half the ultra bleach dose. They are all sodium hypochlorite, just in different strengths. If you do not want to use a liquid shock you can also use calcium hyopchlorite granules (slow dissolving and will cause your calcium levels to rise), Lithium hypochlorite (very fast dissolving but very expensive, however my first choice for a granulated shock since it really has minimal impact on your water like the liquid does), or MPS--potassium monopersulfate, also called non chlorine shock (will lower your pH and TA and add sulfates to your water). There is no advantage to using dichlor (stabilized chlorine) for shocking a bromine system but it probably wouldn't hurt. CYA (stabilizer) does not stabilize bromine.

Here is a step by step:

1) On each fill balance the water (adjust TA and pH. Add calcium if below 125 for acrylic spas or below 200 for plaster.) If you have metals in your water add a metal sequesterant.

1) On each fill add sodium bromide to the water. (Follow manufacturer's directions on dosing. You will end up with about a 30 ppm concentration of sodium bromide.)

2) Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should now be above 10 ppm. Wait until they drop below 10 ppm before entering spa.

3) If using a 3-step system add your floater with bromine tabs and adjust it to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level. If using a 2 step system add your preferred oxidizer as needed (and adjust your ozone) to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level.

4) Shock weekly to burn off organics that collect in the water. (If you are using ozone and your bromine levels are staying at 4-6 ppm then you can shock less often.) Wait until the bromine level drops below 10 ppm before entering spa.

5) Test bromine and pH before entering spa each time. Test all water parameters (bromine, pH, TA, Calcium Hardness) weekly.

6) Drain and refill about every 3-4 months.

One final note. A good test kit is a must, just like with a chlorine system. IMHO, the BEST test kit for bromine is the Taylor K-2106 which has an FAS-DPD test for bromine and also tests for pH with acid and base demand, TA, and CH. If you already have a Trouble Free Testkit TF100 (or are getting one for your chlorine pool) then use the OTO test (small comparator with yelllow color blocks) for your bromine levels since you only want to know total bromine. The TF100 has all the other tests you need also. Remember, you don't need to test CYA in a bromine system.

Happy bromine hot tubbing!

Last edited by Molson on August 18th, 2009, 2:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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[RFD100]

I didn't think you could put bleach in a bromine tub. Is that common, because it’s something I’m not doing.

[chem geek]

Bleach is chlorine and will reactivate bromide to bromine just as any other source of chlorine (or non-chlorine shock) will do. To minimize the amount of potential pH rise, use 6% Clorox Regular and avoid off-brand bleaches since they have more excess lye in them. If you are uncomfortable using bleach, you can use expensive lithium hypochlorite or a non-chlorine shock (MPS) or Dichlor instead (as waterbear noted in the post HHB copied above).

[quantumchromodynamics]

the author of this write up is waterbear

+1 for WaterBear.

There is virtually no one who has the overall level of knowledge and experience that he has. I miss his great advice. I hope that he is doing OK.

[RFD100]

So can a person just put in a little bleach after each use? I currently use 1 tablespoon of leisure time renew after each use.

[quantumchromodynamics]

So can a person just put in a little bleach after each use? I currently use 1 tablespoon of leisure time renew after each use.

Yes, you can use regular, unscented Clorox bleach after each soak. Try about 4-5 ounces per person-hour and adjust as needed.