Newbie & Looking For Final Adjustments On Marquis Costal (Our 1St Hot Tub)

[98MarquisCoastal]

Our first tub... 320 Gallon Marquis Coastal

Initial levels were before sitting in it first time:

TH - 100
FC - 0
PH - 6.6
TA - 0
CYA - 0

After adjustments: PH up & Bromine added

TH - 100
FC - 4 BROMINE
PH 7.4
TA - 0
CYA - 0

As of Today:

TH - 100/200 ISH
FC - 10 BROMINE
PH - 6.8
TA - 0
CYA - 0

Adjusted Right Now:

TH - 100/200 ISH
FC - 8/10 BROMINE
PH - 7.5
TA - 40/50
CYA - 0

What should we do with the CYA? If we add that first, will it lower the PH also? We still need to add to alkalinity but I think we should adjust CYA first then touch up the rest. Any ideas?

We want to get to atleast 200 TH, 8/10 Bromine still, PH about 7.5, TA about 95-120, and atleast 35ish for CYA. What do you all think is best option and what do you suggest to add? Besides something like zorbo maybe a diy project or just buy one for light film and bubbly tub we are now getting.

Story Behind the Tub:

My wife and I found a tub for sale. Three mths before it was $800, two mths before it was $600, month before it was $400 and then two weeks before it was down $200 so I called. We sold our 5.5 ft round tub and was looking to upgrade to this 4-5 person tub. We agreed with seller (Thurs) to pick it up a couple days later (Sat) when I had a truck, trailer, and helpers. On Fri the seller calls to tell me a person before me was coming to take a look at it on Sat. If they dont take it, then the tub is mine to buy for $200. I politely accepted.

I call off the helpers on Friday night and let them know we might need them anyways. Sat I get a call an hour after I was supposed to pick it up and the seller fills in me that the wood base is trash. The seller still asks me for $200. After being told I can buy it then not then I cant then I can plus cancelling my help plus recalling to borrow the truck/trailer; I negotiated a FREE tub for us with the seller.

We were told it had a leak, base was shot, and the panel needs a new cover on it. After setting it up at home and replacing base, I found the leak on the drain hose valve. Removed that and leaks were gone. I looked over paperwork. They had spent almost $7000 on the tub originally plus $$$ to maintain it with pump and jet work over the years.

We had it wired by certified and insured master electrician then filled it. Number of hours later we tested it and adjusted levels best we could. We had used it almost every night for 6 weeks until my wife had our daughter. The seller had calcium build up around water level. Some very thick smoothed over and bumpy spots also. We thought this wouldnt bother our levels.

[dlleno]

Can you tell us how you are establishing your bromine levels? and how are you measuring it?

Also -- I assume here that TH means total hardness -- how are you measuring this? Many have reported success at 200 ppm Calcium Hardness, measured by the Taylor drop test, but many others of us favor lower Calcium levels than that (I am currently at 140). Also why are you targeting TA of 95-120?. For a portable acrylic hot tub, that is high, and I would expect you to have problem with pH drifting too high. Moreover, with TA that high, about the time your pH drifts to 7.9 your water may start precipitating calcium (Saturation index will exceed .6) . So I would highly recommend using a scale control product.

Note that many of us here find success by targeting a lower TA -- I am running 40-50ppm right now.

10ppm bromine is high. I run my bromine spa at 4-6ppm.

in a Bromine Spa, CYA is is not as important. How are you adding your sanitizer? granular dichlor contains CYA so most of us here do not "add" CYA to our spa water. we just allow the dichlor to contribute to CYA naturally, until 35ish ppm is achieved. use the pool calculator to find out how much that is -- for a 500 gallon spa its only a half cup or so. Once you achieve 35ppm CYA ,then it will keep rising if you keep using dichlor. thats why many of us here switch to bleach at that point. I'd encourage you to read the "dichlor then switch to bleach" posts here, on that topic.

Also -- if I were you, before I used the spa even once I would purge with a product called "Ahh-Some". follow label directions. With a 2nd hand spa which has not been regularly maintained -- and even if it had been properly maintained -- I would highly recommend the Ahh-Some purge. be prepared for an astonishing amount of yucko to appear.

[98MarquisCoastal]

We put a floater in the tub with 3 bromine tablets (Spa Choice) and let them whittle down and repeat. We are measuring with a 6 way kit (HTH) and 6 way test strips (HTH). I like the kit better.

How does dichlor react with Bromine? What does it usually do with other chemicals levels?

We bought the tub from my wifes boss from work. It does need that deep cleaning. After seeing the video about "AHH-Some" we will definitely look into that. Should work better than what we have done at first start up. The previous owners gave us three bottles (dont remember lables now) of cleaners and defoamers and such. Im thinking zorbo will be fine as a floater. We dont have much film in it but we would like to keep it clean.

I was under the impression that bromine did sanitize some. I will look into the dichlor if we can mix that with bromine. Otherwise does our oxydizer thingy help? We want to stay away from bleach or chlorination other than bromine.

[dlleno]

Bromine is an alternative to Chlorine and often used in hot tubs as the sanitizer. I'm not a floater guy but many use them effectively. You'll want to investigate the ingredients of the bromine tabs you are using. some, including yours, have chlorine in them -- but the answer to your question depends on whether or not your spa has built up sufficient bromide reserve. With sufficient Bromide reserve in the tub, adding dichlor simply oxidizes the bromide into bromine. I'd encourage you to read the bromine sticky here by waterbear; it lays out the principles very nicely, and seems to fit your preference as well (for the floater)

I try to keep things simple -- I add sodium bromide salts once, at startup, and then add granular dichlor by hand (no floater). but as I say the floaters can work -- you just need to dial them in so that you are not over sanitizing your spa. (10ppm bromine is over sanitizing).

You'll have to tell me what "our oxidizer thingy" is. is that an ozone generator?

you don't need to "look into the dichlor if we can mix that with bromine". Your bromine tablets contain chlorine so you don't need to worry about that. look up waterbears' Bromine article and you will find what you need to know there.

[98MarquisCoastal]

Thanks much. I appreciate the help.

I have adjusted the spa. Now I am reading:

TH - 250ish
FC - 4/5ish
PH - 7.5
TA - 60
CYA - 30ish

[dlleno]

those are good numbers, but I have to ask: are you using a true Free Chlorine test to measure bromine? or you are really measuring bromine when you say "FC". Also, the fact that you have 30ppm CYA suggests that your tabs have dichlor in them. CYA is a don't care in a true bromine spa; thus, over time, the accumulation of CYA in your spa isn't doing anything useful.

most of the folks here, including me, heavily favor the Taylor test kits, because they are so accurate and easy to read. I'm not familiar with the kit and strips you are using, although I tend to distrust "strips" in general. what you could do, to improve the accuracy of your tests, is to correlate them with a Taylor test found at a local pool store. Find a store that has such a capability, take your water into them and ask them to test it. then test it yourself and compare results.

[98MarquisCoastal]

http://media.toolboxsupply.com/media/catalog/product/cache/5/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/10431280i.jpg

[98MarquisCoastal]

HTH 6-way test kit is what Im using.

@ 97F

TH - 320-330 = +70 ppm
TB/FC - 1 = -3 ppm
PH - 7.2 = -0.3
TA - 60 = 0 change in ppm
CYA - 0ish = -30 ppm

We removed the Bromine for five days and these are the changes...

I will have to take time to read through the suggested articles mentioned above before I can determine what to respond to. I dont know what they oxy thing is... I havent taken time to look it over but I will get a model number. Its plugged in but I dont think it works honestly. It bubbles air into the tub on a tiny port according to previous owner.

Thanks much for the responses! If I dont answer a question please dont hesitate to ask again.

[98MarquisCoastal]

Curious about a couple things. After I added calcium to the tub, three of us that use it started to get a cough when the jets were on. It stops after the jets are off. Its a strong chemical odor. Even now with the Bromine lower it still happens. Could it be from the calcium still dissolving? Or should I be aware of an allergy to something else?

Second is the itchy feel after using the tub. Its still there after lower bromine. Must also be the calcium/hardness in the tub.

dlleno - You like 200 down to 140 for hardness... So it could be the 320 I have that is causing this? We plan to get a full cleaner for the tub before fall kicks in.The AHH Some product seems great. Just wonder if there is another method. If not then we will run a couple cycles of this then flush once and refill with new filters and clean plumbing! This could be an issue with the tub also.

I want it set to use all winter. Its an outside tub and its 16 yrs old... Im thinking about putting tires filled with sand/dirt around the majority of the tub to help insulate over winter. Any thoughts on this?

[dlleno]

there are a few things that are not right.

I indicated that 10ppm Bromine was oversanitizing. but you removed the bromine floater when you had a PROPER level of bromine. now you have only 1 ppm bromine which is very low. if you used the tub while bromine level was 1ppm, with the floater still removed, then probably your bromine level went down to zero under bather load. that can cause disease to grow in your tub.

320ppm CA with your 60ppm TA and 97 degree temp shouldn't cause any problem with the water balance. Why did you raise your calcium? that could make people's skin feel itchy.

if people are coughing with the jets on then something is wrong. A 16 year old used tub is growing bad things in it, for petes' sake. you need to flush with Ahh-some and superchlorinate before people get sick. why are you wondering if there is another method? A contaminated spa will spread bacterial infections via the mist that people breathe. if you are perceiving a strong chemical odor with low Bromine levels then your test is either not accurate or something is wrong. I say quit messing around with this tub -- it could be dangerous. forget the "run a couple of cycles first" thing -- Do the Ahh-some purge now.


A device that you plug in and that " bubbles air into the tub on a tiny port", is likely an ozone generator. If it too is 16 years old then it probably has a UV bulb in it that is worn out or not working at all. You can smell the sweet smell of ozone. if you don't smell it, it probably isn't working, but you should not assume that -- get it checked out. UV bulbs are expensive... you'll have to decide if the cost is worth it.

[98MarquisCoastal]

Thanks dlleno!

I am going to do a couple cycles of "Ahh Some" product and superchlorinate. If there is still nasties in the water, I will repeat until it stops producing nasties.

I am then going to fill with new water to flush out the tub with some more "Ahh Some" again. Then refill with water and add chemical levels you suggested before.

I thought the previous owners did a good job with cleaning the tub. It did have calcium build up on it so Im guessing it wasnt all that great of care.

I will take the ozone generator apart and replace it or get a new bulb. Stock OG that was installed on the tub in 98. No chance it still works.

I appreciate the help and dont want to frustrate anyone but we do want to get this tub usable!

Additionally, how do I justify text to the left?

Edited August 12, 2014 by 98MarquisCoastal

[dlleno]

ok good plan. keep purging until your Ahh-some dosed water produces no new material. If you get just a small amount of gunk, you don't have to drain -- you can wipe it up with a cloth -- then rinse the cloth in a separate solution of Ahh-some. this will take several wipe-rinse-wait cycles. If this is not successful than drain and re-dose. The goal is to have Ahh-Some dosed water that does nothing except make the water cloudy and produce white foam that does not stick to the sides. . I find that the label directions are pretty aggressive as regards to the ahh-some dose. After your first 2 purges I bet you could reduce the dose (like I did) to about 75% of the prescribed amount.

it may not be worth it to repair the OG -- I would look into replacing it with a modern corona discharge type, which are more powerful than the older UV types.

I just don't see the need for 320ppm calcium unless you are trying to control foam. If there is Calcium build-up on the spa walls, that means there is calcium on the heating elements too. you may need to replace those... but if they fail you will know it :-).

To left justify the text, you have to put this tag at the beginning of your text:

[left]

and put this tag at the end of your text

[/left]

Note that if you edit your post, the system will strip out these tags and you have to enter them again. I'm about ready to switch to the TFP forum on account of that

[98MarquisCoastal]

dlleno - I will follow you over to TFP forum. Thanks much.

[98MarquisCoastal]

update.

have purged tub and have stabilized the tub.

ph - 7.5
ta - 50
hardness - 220 (higher than i want) target 140
cya - 0
bromine 1-2ish

wish we could see what the hardness is like at 140...

[dlleno]

nice work. glad you posted again, as I lost track of this thread and frankly I didn't make it over to TFP as there was not much spa activity over there. I am really liking the bromine+ozone method in my tub. no floater, and the OG keeps Br levels high enough, under no load conditions.. yea, your CA may be higher than necessary but its not too high, considering the TA=50.

I have to tell a funny story -- after consulting with a colleague at some length, to lift him out of the "spa-store fog", I finally got him to see that a low TA was necessary for pH control under heated/agitated water conditions. later he contacted me ,saying he followed the Spa store's advice to target TA of 120ppm, and why did my pH just shoot through the roof? then he realized that he would be using dry acid to control pH, and that TA of 50ppm ish would be needed for that :-)

On that note -- and from my personal experience; I have seen TA drop down below 50ppm in my spa, but what I've learned is that TA is something to monitor, not to target by itself. what I mean by that is the real measure of success is pH control, not the TA number, and since the vessel is tiny (compared to a pool) and because people and spa utilizations differ, one size doesn't necessarily fit all. . So even though TA=50 "ish" is pretty much required to achieve good pH control in a spa, I don't place any magic on the number anymore. 50ppm is, in fact, a little high for me to avoid pH upward drift. 40 is more like it. I simply control pH drift with dry acid, as the utilization/agitation of my water demands, and I watch TA to make sure it doesn't go too low because I know that when that happens there is danger of a precipitous drop in pH. When pH drifts high under lots of agitation, and TA is low, it takes very little acid to bring it under control again.

best of luck on your spa; sounds like you have it well under control again. BTW ahh-some is way cool. its the only purge product I have confidence in.

[chem geek]

A CH of 240 is not much of a problem so long as you don't let the pH get out of control. As dlleno noted, if the TA is low then there's less risk with somewhat higher CH, BUT only if one also has 50 ppm Borates in the water. Running a low TA to lessen the rise in pH is fine, BUT it requires a substitute pH buffer and the borates are excellent for that especially since they buffer more strongly as the pH rises.

Yes, the real target is getting to a more stable pH, not so much having the TA be at some ideal level especially in acrylic spas where one is not trying to saturate the water with calcium carbonate to protect plaster surfaces. The only risk to having the TA be very low is if you were to add acidic sources since the borates don't buffer as strongly at low pH -- that's what the TA from carbonates is really for.

If you were to add 7 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach to 350 gallons which is roughly 14 ppm FC and enough to handle two person-hours of bather load, then if the TA is 50 ppm and you had CYA in the water, then the pH would rise from 7.5 to 8.5 and the saturation index with a CH of 150 ppm would jump from -0.4 to +0.6 and likely lead to scaling, at least in the heater. With 50 ppm Borates in the water, the pH only rises from 7.5 to 7.8 and the saturation index only rises to -0.2 which is fine. Interestingly, if there is no CYA in the water, then the pH without borates would only jump to 7.9 because CYA acts as a hypochlorous acid buffer and has pH dependence so resists changes to the chlorine level so makes the pH rise more when you add a hypochlorite source of chlorine -- basically since most of the chlorine is bound to the CYA the hypochlorite raises the pH; with no CYA much more of the hypochlorite forms hypochlorous acid so prevents the pH from rising as much. Now if you have a bromine spa and are only adding the bleach to convert bromide to bromine then this pH rise is very temporary. Even so, I think using 50 ppm Borates whenever trying to have the TA be low is a good idea.

dlleno, if you were to use 50 ppm borates, then the pH would not only rise more slowly but it would take more acid to lower the pH back down when it did rise -- basically, the buffering would be stronger. It's not critical that you use the borates since you hare a bromine spa and so long as you understand what's going on and the side effects. For a chlorine spa, though, I think it's essential when using bleach. I was severely chewed out on this forum by a spa dealer when one of their customers tried the Dichlor-then-bleach method when she came to this forum and was before I figured out using borates. She didn't regularly measure and control the pH and when adding bleach she got terrible scaling in her spa.

[dlleno]

nice comments Chem Geek. yea I've done the Borate thing and found it to be effective, and now on my current fill I'm trying the 'without borates" method. Since pH rise is such a problem in hot, agitated water, I also have taken to adding a stain and scale control product for additional insurance, and recommend the same to others, although on this fill I have not done so , for experimental purposes. I will probably go back to using Borates.

scaling: I have a similarly amusing anecdote. the colleague with whom I am working now came to me because he is taking over spa maintenance from his wife, who once added baking soda to their tub and found that white scale mysteriously appeared. the spa store told her it was a bad batch of baking soda and to always use properly labeled TA increaser! I about died laughing. I encouraged him to study different numbers in the pool calculator, as when you do that, you can very nicely model different scenarios and how vulnerable you are to scaling. I showed him he was probably running close to "the hairy edge) re: water balance and the added soda caused his water to scale. now he understands. whats even more funny is that his wife was saying "why does this have to be so complicated?" and "I didn't have to worry about this many parameters", when he politely retorted, "yes but you also put calcium all over the walls!" lol

I can validate that when using bleach in my bromine spa, that pH rise is more of an issue than when I use dichlor. I see your point about pH control and Borates being more important in a Cl spa. I find that pH control is acceptable, but I'll use Borates next time just to see the difference.

[98MarquisCoastal]

Chem Geek - I am still digesting your post. I will check with you before I play around with the changes.

[dlleno]

Verdict on 50ppm Borates in a bromine spa; I like it. I found that pH rise is so much easier to control, so I switched back to Boric Acid method -- 3 cups per 500 gallons.

[chem geek]

Thanks. It makes sense that it would control pH regardless of disinfection method, but since it becomes a strong pH buffer when the pH gets higher it's best used in situations where the pH tends to rise. So when using a net acidic source of chlorine that may not be the case. Dichlor in heavier use but without a lot of aeration may have a net pH drop and the use of non-chlorine shock (MPS) is even more acidic (similar in acidity to Trichlor though that is not usually used in spas). In those situations where the pH may tend to drop over time and where the alkalinity is consumed, having a higher TA works better and the borates less so (they aren't bad, just not as helpful).

[dlleno]

yea good points. ... I should have qualified that I use predominantly bleach as my oxidizer. without the Borates I would seriously have to flirt with 30ppm TA to keep pH within reason ,when there was lots of agitation from the jets and of course the ozone generator. in the end it was just too stressful to consider the possibility of precipitous drop in pH due low TA, so I added the Boric acid on my most recent fill.

I might dry straight dichlor on my next fill just to experiment again with pH control and the drain interval.