What To Do When Using Bbb But Away From Home

[holemania]

hello all,

newbie here...i appreciate everyone's posts & knowledge...i've been reading & printing alot.

we are making plans now to install a 24'/52" agp in mid-april (around 15000 gallons).

the pool store has been suggesting bromine and an automatic chemical feeder in-line with our return jet for sanitization. we don't think bromine is a good option 'cause our pool will be totally exposed to the sun. (another note: everything i've read says if you go bromine, you can't switch to chlorine without draining the pool. our pool dealer insists it's the other way around: can't go from chlorine to bromine easily)???...can anyone advise?

after reading all the expert advice here, i would like to gain as much knowledge as possible and manage my chemicals manually using the bbb method.

a few questions, please...

if using bbb, what do most of you do when you're gone for multiple days...even a week at a time? (if noone else is available to tend the chemicals)?

is it advisable to go ahead and install an in-line chemical feeder and just use it with chlorine tablets (time release chlrorine...i'm told) for those times we're away?

if yes...are there correct chlorine tablets available (i.e. sodium hypochlorite) to use in these chemical feeders or are all the tablets trichlor... or dichlor...?(i've read not to use those).

is another advisable option to install a pricey salt water generator or saltwater chlorinator> i don't think these are routinely used on ag pools, but i've checked with my dealer and they say it's ok to use a chlorine generator (it won't void my pool warranty).

can anyone please send me the bleach calculator as an email attachment? i've tried all the links for the calculator, but they don't seem to work anymore.

my email is: holemania@gmail.com

thanks alot!

[chem geek]

Your pool dealer is wrong on several counts. It is easy to go from a chlorine pool to a bromine pool. You simply add bromide to your pool and the chlorine will convert it to bromine. The chlorine gets used up and becomes chloride. As the bromine disinfects and gets converted to bromide, any remaining chlorine will reactivate it back to bromine and the chlorine gets used up. So eventually, the chlorine all gets used up. The same thing happens in a spa. One HAS to reactivate bromide back to bromine and this can be done with either chlorine or with a non-chlorine shock (KMPS).

Going from a bromine pool to a chlorine pool is hard if the bromine is in the form typically added to spas since it lasts longer in that form. If it's just added to the pool as sodium bromide, then the resulting bromine can be oxidized away through high levels of chlorine and sunlight. It's time consuming and uses lots of chlorine.

I don't know why bromine is being suggested for your pool. It's a lot more expensive and the only reason it is usually used in spas is that it doesn't outgas as readily as chlorine (at high temps and high aeration) and therefore doesn't go away as quickly nor smell as much, though this can be partially mitigated by using some (but not too much) Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in a spa.

Now for your questions:

if using bbb, what do most of you do when you're gone for multiple days...even a week at a time? (if noone else is available to tend the chemicals)?

If you use a pool cover, especially an opaque one to UV (most are -- even "clear" pool covers don't let much UV light through) then your chlorine will last much longer. I have an opaque electric pool cover for my pool which is 16,000 gallons and I only lose less than 0.5 ppm FC per day (at around 3 ppm FC total). So you could add a bunch of chlorine (to get to, say, 10 ppm FC) and go away for a week, but probably not much more than that.

Using Trichlor in a floating feeder or an in-line feeder is an easy approach. Just make sure your TA is higher and start your pH a little higher since the Trichlor is very acidic (i.e. it lowers the pH a lot). Of course, for every 1 ppm of FC added to your pool from Trichlor, you will also add 0.6 ppm CYA, but for short-term use this is fine (especially if you have splash-out or a sand or DE filter that gets backwashed or cleaned).

is it advisable to go ahead and install an in-line chemical feeder and just use it with chlorine tablets (time release chlrorine...i'm told) for those times we're away?

It's a decent option. The alternative is to just use a floating feeder -- just make sure it doesn't "park" itself near metal -- that happened to me and rusted out some just under the water bar mounts.

if yes...are there correct chlorine tablets available (i.e. sodium hypochlorite) to use in these chemical feeders or are all the tablets trichlor... or dichlor...?(i've read not to use those).

The only slow-dissolving solid chlorine is Trichlor (Dichlor and Cal-Hypo are solid, but both are quick dissolving). Sodium Hypochlorite is a liquid only. There are some feeders for liquid chlorine (chlorinating liquid or bleach) available using a peristaltic pump, but these are not common.

is another advisable option to install a pricey salt water generator or saltwater chlorinator> i don't think these are routinely used on ag pools, but i've checked with my dealer and they say it's ok to use a chlorine generator (it won't void my pool warranty).

Yes, this is another option and yes it costs more, but you get convenience in return. There are some units you can just attach to the inside wall (hanging over the edge) of your AG pool or you can go with the traditional in-line units as the last stage in your plumbing. There are a few things to watch out for with a salt pool having to do with the higher concentration of salt and its effect on hardscape (cement, stone) surfaces and on metal, but metal corrosion is virtually eliminated by use of CYA in the pool, which you will have anyway since it's an outdoor pool.

can anyone please send me the bleach calculator as an email attachment? i've tried all the links for the calculator, but they don't seem to work anymore.

I don't have BleachCalc, but the spreadsheet I created to calculate pool water chemistry will do most of what you want. It's just not for novices. It's at this link.

[holemania]

chem,

thanks for all the good info & advice!

[chem geek]

I found BleachCalc262.exe on a machine I have so I've uploaded it to this link, but I didn't write the program and don't support it. It's very good, however, though I believe has an error in the Borax Borates calculation.

[holemania]

chem,

thanks...just need to convert gallons to liters...or think european...lol.

btw,

i don't think the lauded ps234 test kit is readily available now...

would you suggest taylor k-2006-6 as a comprehensive testing kit.

i want to invest in a good test kit...any recommendations appreciated.

also, we're on well water with some iron...our initial fill will be trucked in, but should any subsequent filling from the well be done straight from the well or after it has passed thru a whole house filter and water softener?

i'm pretty sure at some point we'll have to treat with some form of sequestering solution as well...

thanks again!

[chem geek]

I think that BleachCalc has a menu option to use metric units (under More Calcs - Settings). I know that my spreadsheet has that option (units of measure).

You are correct that Ben has been out-of-communication for a while. The Taylor K-2006 is your best alternative. It's essentially the same as Ben's kit except the quantities are not as optimized and there are extra acid/base demand tests you usually don't need.

Why don't you run a full set of tests on your well water and post them. If it truly has a lot of iron, then you are correct that you'll probably have to add a sequesterant. I'm also interested in the TA and CH levels of the well water -- if they are really high, then you might use the whole house filter to cut these down. The TA can be cut down in the pool using low pH and lots of aeration and adding acid, but the CH is only readily reduced through the whole house filter which replaces calcium, usually with sodium (or potassium) via an ion exchange resin.

[holemania]

chem,

thanks again for your advice...

i now have the taylor k-2006 on order...

i'll test water directly from the well and also after it's passed thru the whole house filter & water softener...and post the 2 sets of results.

local walmart has bleach & baking soda....local lowes has muriatic acid, so i should be good to go. i'll be able to grab some sequesterent at local pool store (or i presume i can order it online as well).

still have snow on the ground now, but looking forward to pool & deck installation the 3rd week of april!!....we're very excited!

[holemania]

i received my taylor k-2006.

my initial testing of my well water:

FC = 0

pH = 7.8

TA = 210

CH = 0

CYA = 0 (never registered, water remained clear after adding 7ml Taylor reagent R-0013 to 7ml of water and mixing, so the "cloudy" water never happened.)

thanks for any feedback!

dave

[chem geek]

Dave,

That's interesting that your well water has Total Alkalinity (TA) but not Calcium Hardness (CH). It's possible that the water is very soft or that all the hardness is with magnesium, but that is rather unusual. Usually, natural waters have some degree of CH since usually there is more calcium than magnesium. There are certainly rocks (minerals) that are composed solely of magnesium carbonate (sometimes with magnesium hydroxide), but normally you would also find calcium carbonate (e.g. limestone).

I would not have expected to find any CYA in the water -- it does not occur naturally. And I wouldn't expect to find any chlorine in natural water either. So except for the zero CH, the test looks reasonable.

The metals tests (from Taylor or others) are quite expensive so you should take your water sample to a pool store to get tested for metals, typically copper and iron, if that is of concern to you. They can also verify your zero CH result. The Taylor K-1264 will test both copper and iron, but is $84 and you really don't need to test for metals except once to determine your initial water source (or perhaps your well fill water). You will only need a sequesterant if your well water tests high in metals. You can also do a "poor man's test" for metals by taking a sample of your well water and adding bleach (or chlorinating liquid) to it. This will oxidize dissolved metals and the excess chlorine will raise the pH, and this will tend to precipitate out any metals. If you have a rough surface (like a chip of plaster) in the water, it will tend to help form the precipitate and you can see staining (typically blue/green for copper, orange/red for iron, though that depends on the specific substance that is formed). In your case with high TA well water, you could add lye (sodium hydroxide) to the water along with the chlorine to help force the pH up (since the high TA will tend to buffer the pH). This isn't a fast test nor it is foolproof, but it is cheap.

It will be interesting to see what your whole house filter does to this water. You apparently don't have any CH to remove, but I'm not sure if your filter will remove the TA (carbonates).

Now what this means is that you will be refilling with high TA and low CH water in your pool. Because your pool is above-ground, I assume it uses a vinyl liner. The low CH is fine since once you've done an initial fill of your pool it will probably have some CH (either naturally or added via calcium cloride), though not much (perhaps 100 ppm) in it since you don't have plaster/gunite/grout. Your biggest headache with your well water will be the high TA. The good news is that fill water won't increase your overall TA very quickly since it's just not that much (unless you have lots of evaporation), but if it builds up over time than you will be fighting rising pH. It is easy to lower TA by lowering your pH to around 7.0, doing lots of aeration to mix the water with the air, and adding acid to keep the pH low. Then, when the TA gets to where you want it, you stop adding acid while continuing to aerate, and the pH will rise at which point you stop aerating when the pH is where you want it (probably around 7.5). If you find you have lots of evaporation and refill with lots of water and are fighting rising TA, then you can look at using a pool cover which will save you a lot in terms of chemical stability, including pH and chlorine.

Anyway, your well water looks OK. It will be interesting to see what the initial fill water is like. You can measure that after they've filled your pool. You'll want to add chlorine to your pool right away as well as CYA and probably the easiest way to add both rather quickly is to use Dichlor since it dissolves readily and provides lots of CYA (an amount for 1 ppm FC gives 0.9 ppm CYA). You can try adding CYA directly, but it will take a lot longer since it dissolves slowly and is acidic. You could also use Trichlor but that also dissolves slowly and is even more acidic (for the same amount of CYA). You would add enough CYA (in whatever form) to get to 30 ppm though you don't have to do it all at once. Then after that you switch to bleach for your chlorine and maintain about a 3 ppm FC minimum. Once you've sort of learned about your pool and gotten a feel for how it behaves, all of this will be very easy. Every pool is a little different.

[holemania]

chem,

thanks for the informative reply...

i should have indicated in my "results" post...the tests were run from my kitchen tap, which means post-wholehouse filter and post-water softener (maybe thats why no CH?).

i shall run more tests on the "straight" well water...

thanks again!

[chem geek]

Yup, running your well water through your water softener will remove all calcium (and magnesium) and will substitute it for sodium or potassium. So I'm sure that's what happened and now we know that it won't help for lowering the TA. Yes, I'll be interested in seeing the same results not running the water through your whole-house filter/softener. If your CH isn't too high, you could probably use it for fill water directly -- it will slowly build up CH but might be OK. It depends on whether your water replacement will be due to evaporation, in which case you will tend to build up CH if you use well water directly, or if it is due to splash-out or backwashing in which case your CH shouldn't change much (if the bulk pool water has the same CH as your fill water).

At least you now know that your water softener works!

By the way, what kind of filter do you have? Cartridge, sand or DE? With sand, you will be backwashing regularly and with DE you will be cleaning periodically, both of which use lots of water so you'll be diluting the chemicals in your pool, but also "refreshing" the water by removing any organics that don't get broken down.

[holemania]

chem,

hello...

i will be using a sand filter (installation is mid-april).

here's results directly from well (pre-filter & pre-softener):

FC = 0

pH = 7.8

TA = 190

CH = 120

CYA = 0

...question on TA test: Taylor 2006 kit advises to add drops (forget which reagent) until red liquid turns to blue liquid.

does this mean until it turns blue & stays blue?

'cause when if first add drops to the red liquid and swirl, it does turn blue momentarily, but then turns back to red???

sorry, still trying to learn this stuff!

thanks for your help.

p.s. registration is still closed on the other forum so i cannot post there...do you know if carld posts here as well?

there was a post on the other forum by carld re: using a vermiculite hard bottom for an above ground pool and i'd like to contact him if he has experience re: that...

if you have the means to contact him, please have him contact me @ holemania@gmail.com

i'd like to ask him about using vermiculite.

thanks again for all your help!

dave

[chem geek]

Thanks for the results. The CH of 120 isn't too bad at all unless you have a lot of evaporation and subsequent refill. If you had evaporation and refill over a summer of your entire pool water volume, that would increase your CH by only 120 ppm and that is not terrible, but to keep things in check I suspect your regular backwashing of your sand filter will keep the CH low. Anyway, it's something you can look at after your pool is up and running. The TA of 190 is consistent with your earlier number from the whole house filter (which had a slightly higher TA, but not by much).

My answers to your questions below.

FC = 0

pH = 7.8

TA = 190

CH = 120

CYA = 0

...question on TA test: Taylor 2006 kit advises to add drops (forget which reagent) until red liquid turns to blue liquid.

does this mean until it turns blue & stays blue?

'cause when if first add drops to the red liquid and swirl, it does turn blue momentarily, but then turns back to red???

sorry, still trying to learn this stuff!

No need to apologize. We're all learning this stuff. When I got my pool I didn't know anything about any of this. The TA test turns from green to red while the CH test turns from red to blue so I'll bet you are talking about the CH test, not the TA test. It is not uncommon for the CH test to have a "fading endpoint" that you are seeing and Taylor talks about that in the instructions. They say to add 2 drops of the titrating reagent, R-0012, to the water sample BEFORE adding the 20 drops of calcium buffer, R-0010, and the 5 drops of indicator reagent, R-0011L. You then add and count drops of the titrating reagent again, but also add the original 2 drops to your count. That's what I do and it works well. If you still have a bit of a fading endpoint, you can add more than 2 drops of the titrating reagent to start with -- just add those to your final count.

p.s. registration is still closed on the other forum so i cannot post there...do you know if carld posts here as well?

there was a post on the other forum by carld re: using a vermiculite hard bottom for an above ground pool and i'd like to contact him if he has experience re: that...

if you have the means to contact him, please have him contact me @ holemania@gmail.com

i'd like to ask him about using vermiculite.

thanks again for all your help!

I don't think Carl posts here, but I'll send him a PM or E-mail and have him contact you, if he is able to. He's a great guy and a valuable resource, but has a lot of responsibilities being one of the moderators on the Pool Forum so I can't make any guarantees you'll get a response soon.

[chem geek]

I PM'd Carl and he wrote back that unfortunately he won't be able to communicate with you. The moderators have had bad experiences in the past giving out their E-mail address and being bombarded with requests so they don't do that anymore as a matter of policy. So unless Carl or others who might be able to help you with your specific question post here, there's not much that can be done. I'm just hoping that the Pool Forum gets opened up again soon, that Ben is OK, that money is returned or kits shipped, etc.

[holemania]

chem,

thanks again for all your insights....

i shall learn the water balance & chemistry better once the pool is installed and i've had a chance to work with it a bit...

thanks for passing the request to carld...

we were only considering vermiculite 'cause we thought it might be additional insurance against a possible mole invasion....

but, to be honest, i think we'll go with the traditional sand+foam bottom and save the vermiculite $$ for additional pool items or patio furniture...

we can't wait...spring is in the air and we're ready for summer!

thanks again!