First Time Pool Owner. Cloudy/murky Water

[fmjnax]

Hi all,

I'm a first time pool owner. I apologize for the length of this, but I want to make sure I answer as many questions up front as I can.

We purchased a 15'x42" Intex above ground metal frame pool. We immediately bought the saltwater system with it. We set it up, got everything running (contrary to the instructions, we run the filter 24/7 instead of just when the pool is in use). Every was great until we had a heavy week of rain. We were out of town during most of the week. When we returned, we found our crystal clear water had turned to a cloudy/murky mess.

Now, I'm an aquarium addict, so I'm no stranger to water chemistry. I've checked the chemistry constantly and everything looks to be in place. PH is good, chlorine is good, hardness and alkalinity is good. Phosphates are in check.

Also, being an aquarium addict, I'm also a believer in fixing the problem at the source and not covering it up with chemicals. We've shocked the pool numerous time. Copper levels are good, and we even tried taking them higher/longer than recommended. Same with chlorine (we went 10x during the shock). We kept everyone out of the pool for a week during the process.

Finally, I broke down and tried a couple of chemicals (started with the cheap ones). We tried a cell saver specific for saltwater systems, thinking my problem might have been scaling. We also tried a "water clarifier", which stated that it worked by clumping particals/oils in the water for easy vacuuming.

That takes me to the next step. I perform filter maintenance weekly, and/or when the water flow seems super low of the saltwater system indicates low flow (oh, and salt levels are perfect, as well). I keep the cartridges clean (replace every 2 weeks and wash/rinse 2-4 times during that cycle). I keep the cell in the saltwater system clean as well. We have an "over the side" skimmer attached, but have also tried bypassing it. Our pool package came with a maintenance kit and we keep it vacuumed (it actually seems like a crappy/cheap vacuum that doesn't seem to work). We keep the walls and floor scrubbed/brushed. We also use the manual skimmer/mesh net thing before each use (no trees around, so it's just bugs we have to scoop out).

Now, with my detailed maintenance schedule typed out, here's what I'm seeing in my pool. The water is NOT green, but a cloudy murk. We can see each other under water at a 8-10' distance only (used to be able to see side-to-side). There seems to be a slimy film on the walls/floor below the water line every day, but it easily scrubs/wipes off with our hands or brushes. It doesn't appear to leave particals floating in the water after wiping it off. It also appears to be a clear film. The bottom of the pool is starting to darken/turn a shade of brown in the middle. None of this is on the walls or within a foot of the wall on the bottom. The pool ladder gets a light film on it, but it isn't discoloring nor does it appear to be scaling. We decided to swim today, and while swimming underwater, I happened to notice that I have a fine dust on the bottom, even after vacuuming. I also see particles floating everywhere, suspended in the water; apparently too small for the mesh net thing to capture. So this leaves me to wonder; is my cloudy/murky water caused by these suspended particles? If so, what can I do to get rid of them? And what about the staining of the liner on the bottom? No amount of scrubbing (even with a harsh kitchen scrubber) removes any of the stain.

We've spent HOURS, on numerous days vacuuming, filtering, scrubbing, netting and it doesn't seem to be better at all, even with the two chemicals I've bought/used. I'm getting frustrated and just don't know what to do. I don't want to take a crap-shoot and buy chemical after chemical to try and fix this, nor do I really want to drain the pool and start over (actually, I might end up doing this. My ground settled after leveling and the pool is now unlevel again, so it needs to be redone at some point). I'm hoping I can at least find some sort of direction first.

Thanks all!

[fmjnax]

Oh yeah, and our filter is rated at 1000gph and we keep the level at 36" instead of 42" (we have a little swimmer), so with our ~3600 gallon pool, we're above the "turnover every 8 hours" that seems to be the standard; even with the loss due to head and other restrictions.

[fmjnax]

Oh yeah, and our filter is rated at 1000gph and we keep the level at 36" instead of 42" (we have a little swimmer), so with our ~3600 gallon pool, we're above the "turnover every 8 hours" that seems to be the standard; even with the loss due to head and other restrictions.

After reading on this site for a few hours, I've realized that I just THOUGHT I was educated after spending days searching Google. There's so many acronyms and tests that I don't perform. I'm going to start with getting some CYA in the pool. It's got 0 in it now... and the Texas sun is baking the pool so I'm sure the chlorine is low during the day, and it can't possibly be helping my situation any being low. I'm also going to try and superchlorinate for longer than a single cycle, keeping it up until I'm not losing FC overnight.

Any other ideas are more than welcomed!

[chem geek]

You can learn a lot by reading the Pool School, but getting CYA into the pool is important though not too much. For a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG) pool you can operate with a higher CYA level, but I wouldn't go higher than around 30-50 ppm right now until you shock your pool with chlorinating liquid or bleach to make sure you don't have any algae growth and the pool is clear. You want to get to a point where you measure <= 0.5 ppm CC, have clear water, and measure <= 1 ppm FC drop overnight. Of course, you need a proper test kit, the Taylor K-2006 or the TF-100.

[fmjnax]

You can learn a lot by reading the Pool School, but getting CYA into the pool is important though not too much. For a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG) pool you can operate with a higher CYA level, but I wouldn't go higher than around 30-50 ppm right now until you shock your pool with chlorinating liquid or bleach to make sure you don't have any algae growth and the pool is clear. You want to get to a point where you measure <= 0.5 ppm CC, have clear water, and measure <= 1 ppm FC drop overnight. Of course, you need a proper test kit, the Taylor K-2006 or the TF-100.

Well, I read through the Pool School and BBB method and learned A LOT! I ditched my stupid dip-strips and got the 6-in-1 HTH from Wally until I can convince the girlfriend that $60 is money WELL spent on a better kit. My dip strips were showing chlorine in the OK (and a touch higher) level, but immediately the OTO test shows absolutely nothing. The test water was clear and night and day. I got some CYA from the pool store and boosted my levels to 50-70 (hard to tell with that test; or maybe it's my inexperience). Anyway, I then dumped in a big bottle of Clorox (the 1.4gal). It boosted the chlorine off the chart (and I did the modification where you cut it with distilled water). I was up about 20ppm. I tested this morning and was down at about 6ppm... but my water was CRYSTAL clear with a ton of muck to vacuum up on the bottom. No more film, no more stains, nothing. Absolutely perfect water again (by looks). I'm going to keep up with this regiment until my chlorine levels stabilize, as mentioned above.

All of this brings me to two conclusions, that I'm sure you all already know:

1 - The dip-strips SUCK! Hehehe

2 - The Intex SWG wasn't producing chlorine; and still may not be. (I gotta figure that one out somehow)

[chem geek]

It's possible your SWG is producing chlorine, but got behind. With no CYA in the water, it can't keep up with chlorine demand when chlorine breaks down from the UV in sunlight. At the other extreme, when the FC is too low for the CYA level, it can't keep up with algae growth. So you really won't be able to tell about your SWG until your pool gets completely cleared up and you measure <= 1 ppm FC loss overnight. At that point, you can test your SWG to see if it is producing chlorine.

[fmjnax]

It's possible your SWG is producing chlorine, but got behind. With no CYA in the water, it can't keep up with chlorine demand when chlorine breaks down from the UV in sunlight. At the other extreme, when the FC is too low for the CYA level, it can't keep up with algae growth. So you really won't be able to tell about your SWG until your pool gets completely cleared up and you measure <= 1 ppm FC loss overnight. At that point, you can test your SWG to see if it is producing chlorine.

That's a relief to know, chem geek. Thanks! Is there any way to test FC vs CC with that HTH 6-in-1 kit or am I stuck until I can get a better kit (or take my water to the pool store)?

[fmjnax]

I figure it wouldn't hurt to post my steps and the numbers from my last four tests (the tests since buying the HTH kit). Maybe I've got something out of whack that ya'll can see:

7/16:

- I added my CYA in the late afternoon. I added enough to bring it up to about 70ppm, according to the directions

- Still using my dip strips, chlorine was showing 3ppm, but I had already decided I was going to shock the hell outta the pool, so I didn't care what this showed

7/17:

- Purchased HTH kit and tested the following at about 3 in the afternoon:

Chlorine - 0 (uh-oh!)

pH - 7.2 (kinda low?)

TA - 130 (kinda high?)

TH - 17.5 (low? Should I be concerned?)

CYA - 60

- I dumped in 1.4gal of Clorox right at dusk, waiting about an hour and tested the following at about 9:30pm:

Chlorine - 20-25 (had to do the dilute trick, so not entirely accurate)

pH - 7.4 (rising?)

TA - 130

TH - 14 (coming down even more?)

CYA - Didn't test. My understanding I only need to test once?

7/18:

- First notice: No more cloudy water! No more pool stains! No more slimy walls/floor! Sparkling clear. Noticable "chlorine" smell. Tons of muck to vacuum up

Tested the following at about 8am:

Chlorine - about 7 (again, had to dilute)

pH - 7.5 (rising?)

TA - 130

TH - 8 (still dropping?)

CYA - Didn't test

- I vacuumed up the muck on the pool.

- I added another 2 or 3 cups of Clorox to bring me back up to 10ppm (according to the pool calc)

- I forgot to test levels in the PM. Oops!

7/19:

- Still sparkling clear water. Still a chlorine smell, but not as strong. A light dusting of muck on the bottom to vacuum, but not nearly as much as yesterday

- I tested the following at 10 this morning:

Chlorine - 5-6. Yellow matched the 5, but maybe a touch darker. Not enough to warrant a dilute test

pH - 7.5 (stablilzed?)

TA - 130

TH - 0 (uh oh?)

CYA - Again, didn't test

So here I am today, with my pool looking GREAT! That doesn't mean I'm done, though. I need to make sure my chlorine stabilizes without me having to add Clorox, for starters! I have a few other concerns as well:

1 - Is my TA high? According to the pool calc, I need to lower pH and then aerate. I'm already aerating. My return jet is at water surface, creating turbulance

2 - my pH was low, but seems to have stabilized where it needs to be. Possibly because I now have chlorine? Hehehe

3 - my TH is reading 0. I did the test twice and used my TH aquarium test to confirm 0. Is this ok with my vinyl pool?

4 - I can't tell FC vs CC. Is there a single chlorine test I can buy for this?

Thanks all! I may not have received many replies specific to my problem, but the forum alone and the Pool School link was the key information I needed!

[chem geek]

It is unlikely that your Total Hardness (TH) is really zero. Fill water usually has some calcium and magnesium in it, though it might be low. You don't need calcium for a vinyl pool assuming you have no exposed grout in tile or anything like that. Your TA is high for an SWG pool, but to lower it you follow the procedure for lowering total alkalinity which involves lowering the pH, aerating, and adding acid (see the Pool School article on how to Lower Total Alkalinity). However, why don't you wait on that until you know you need to do it. If your pH is stable, then you won't need to lower the TA, but that would be very unusual once you are using only your SWG for producing chlorine.

Please, please get yourself a good test kit -- either the Taylor K-2006 or the TF-100 with the latter kit having more volume of reagents so is more comparably priced per test. These test kits will test for pH, Free Chlorine (FC), Combined Chlorine (CC), Total Alkalinity (TA), Calcium Hardness (CH) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). They use a FAS-DPD chlorine test where you count the drops (see a demo here) with accuracy to 0.2 ppm for a 25 ml sample or 0.5 ppm for a 10 ml sample and can measure up to 50 ppm.

[quantumchromodynamics]

When you test for hardness, are you reporting the number of drops, or are you multiplying by the appropriate factor (usually 10 X)?

There must be an error in testing because your hardness would not fall like you are reporting.

Copper levels are good, and we even tried taking them higher/longer than recommended.

What are your copper levels? You don't want copper in your water. Copper will interfere with the hardness test, so that could explain your erratic results. You especially don't want copper in a salt system.

[fmjnax]

When you test for hardness, are you reporting the number of drops, or are you multiplying by the appropriate factor (usually 10 X)?

There must be an error in testing because your hardness would not fall like you are reporting.

I was multiplying like I should have. Problem is, there's nothing to multiply by! I put in the initial 5 drops and they sink to the bottom in the dark color. When I swirl the tube around to mix it, the water goes clear. Well, not entirely clear, but maybe the color of the .5 red value on the test block. VERY faint. I then add in the other, drop by drop, but the water never changes. My aquarium hardness test kit is the same way and works on the same principle (probably the same reagents). Just absolutely nothing. It shouldn't be a foreign substance inside the tube, either. I've washed it, used test tubes from my aquarium kit, and the TA test reports just fine. My pool just doesn't seem to have hardness in it. Maybe I should try the test kit with tap water and some aquarium water and make sure both kits reagents are fine? My pool doesn't have any grout or anything exposed that would really cause an issue due to the hardness, but I'd still like it to be at least 50, right?

I think I might be getting close to everything being stable. I went over to Leslie's (had to get a new vacuum bag) and talked to the manager for a while about a few things. We got to talking about water testing and they told me just to bring a water sample in twice a day for a few days, but I told them I lived 30 miles away and that just wouldn't be feasible and that I would have to hold out until I could convince the girlfriend that a $60 test kit would be about the best money spent. She told me that if I went ahead and bought an "upgraded" vacuum instead of just the mesh bag, she would throw in a FREE chlorine/ph DPD test kit. Kind of a win-win for me, I suppose. The cheap vacuum that came with the Intex pool setup wasn't too great so for $15, I have a new vacuum AND a DPD chlorine test. Still not the Taylor kit, but I'm getting closer.

Anyway, I just got done testing the water for the evening and here's what I'm looking at:

TC - 5

FC - 3

CC - 2 (If I remember reading correctly, CC is TC minus FC)

pH - 7.5

TA - 130

TH - 0

CYA - 70

These are virtually the same results as this morning, without adding any new bleach in the past 36 hours. The SWG has been running on the regular schedule. The CC is still too high (I'm shooting for 0, right?) and I will have to make sure the FC is about the same first thing in the morning. If my CC is still above 0, but my FC isn't changing, then what should I do? Add more bleach to shock it out?

Thanks!

[quantumchromodynamics]

If you have copper, then it could be interfering with the hardness test. Add 5 drops of titrant first to the test and then proceed with the test as normal. Be sure to count the initial drops of titrant in the total number of drops of titrant used. Titrant is the reagent you use drop by drop while counting the number of drops it takes to change the sample.

As far as shocking goes, you should maintain shock level until

1) Your water is clear.

2) Your overnight FC loss is 1.0 ppm, or less and

3) Your CC level is 0.5 ppm or less.

You can calculate your shock level by using the Pool Calculator.

[fmjnax]

If you have copper, then it could be interfering with the hardness test. Add 5 drops of titrant first to the test and then proceed with the test as normal. Be sure to count the initial drops of titrant in the total number of drops of titrant used. Titrant is the reagent you use drop by drop while counting the number of drops it takes to change the sample.

As far as shocking goes, you should maintain shock level until

1) Your water is clear.

2) Your overnight FC loss is 1.0 ppm, or less and

3) Your CC level is 0.5 ppm or less.

You can calculate your shock level by using the Pool Calculator.

I hope there's no such thing as testing too much (or posting too much!).

I ran another test now that the sun has been down for a few hours and I scrutinized the test blocks to try and get a more accurate number. I also wanted to try the trick with the TH.

As far as the copper, I'm not sure I can entirely eliminate it due to how the Intex SWG works... and in my unknowledgable times trying to clear this mess up, I ran the "Boost" cycle thinking it would shock; instead it adds copper. So now my copper levels aren't "OK". In fact, I'm kind of worried about them. I'm looking at between .6 and .8, according to the dip strip. I'm going to have to drain the pool some to lower the number. No more stupid "Boost" either. I did manage to get some Metal Magic stuff, just to be safe, that I guess binds the copper to keep it from staining.

Anyway, back to the test. First, I will say that the trick of adding some titrant first for the TH test worked; and also, when I first reported it as 17.5, that was before multiplying it. I ran my chlorine tests twice and had the girlfriend also look at the test block. It just seems too quick to be stabilizing. According to the Pool School, my numbers are pretty much in synch.

TC - 3

FC - 3

CC - 0

pH - 7.5

TA - 125

TH - 160

It seemed odd to me that the FC and TC could be the same in such a short amount of time, but I guess it's more than possible that I just read the late afternoon test wrong. I know my chlorine level is a bit low, but I haven't been running the SWG like I normally would and I'm not going to add any more bleach so that I can check the FC in the morning. If I have to do another round of shock, I will. And if I have to supplement my SWG with bleach (as unhappy as I will be), I will also do so.

[quantumchromodynamics]

OK, the rising copper levels explain why your test results for hardness were falling. The more copper, the more it interfered with the test.

I was not aware that any SWG included a copper ionizer. Copper is really not a good thing for your pool. Copper is not compatible with a SWG. I recommend that you disable the copper ionizer.

Copper is a less noble metal than titanium, and thus it corrodes as a result of the electrolysis in the high salt solution.

This electrolysis leaves black stains and debris in the pool. The copper also is rendered insoluble in the water, which may create a green translucent color.

http://www.poolspanews.com/2009/081/081stains.html

http://www.aquamagazine.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=1825&zoneid=13

Your CC levels can drop quickly. This is partly due to sunlight. CCs are not protected by cyanuric acid, and are quickly destroyed by strong sunlight. Your FC was protected by the cyanuric acid, and therefore did not drop much.

[fmjnax]

I haven't been running the copper ionizer since Friday, so no more copper being added. According to the Intex SWG manual, there is a copper electrode part and the "BOOST" cycle should be used when the copper levels are less than .1ppm and to use it after a heavy rain to "shock" the pool. Not good for those that don't know any better (which was my mistake). There is also an Electrolytic cell with titanium plates. I'm guessing this is what generates the chlorine. Do you think if I unplug or remove the copper electrode, I would better eliminate copper getting in to my pool than if I just quit using the boost cycle? The copper electrode is always in contact with the water passing through, so I'm thinking it will still leech copper over time.

Also, I took a sample of pool water into the local pool store this morning after my testing concluded everything was fine. They tested it and also said it was fine. The FC level was exactly the same at 10:00am this morning as it was at midnight last night. I tested 0 CC and so did the pool store. They said the only thing that they would recommend would be to increase the CYA. I tested 50-70, but they tested 30. I'm guessing their test is probably a lot more accurate than the "look for the dot" test in the HTH kit.

I think I've finally got a grasp on pool maintenance and what I need to be doing. It's such a relief!

Thanks!

[quantumchromodynamics]

I am not familiar with the model you have and I cannot give good advice regarding any modification. You might void the warranty, and modifying the unit might not be safe.

That said, I think that removing the copper and disconnecting the power from the ionizer should work. You will have to decide if this is something you can handle.

Get a second reading on the Cyanuric acid. You can always add more. Removing some requires removing and replacing water.