New Owner - I'm So Confused About What To Use....

[jencorr]

Hi everyone,

I really want to thank you all for all of the information and advice you are so willing to share. I've read a lot on this board in the last few weeks and I am just so frustrated that I decided to come out of the shadows and post my issue.

First off, I feel like I need to be a chemist to get this all straight. I've had a D1 Wayfarer for about 6 weeks now, and have drained it twice because I can't get it right. My other problem is I live in a very remote location, and the dealer we bought this from is 3 hours away, and there aren't any pool places that do water tests local. I've brought samples to the closest one twice now (45 minutes) but I don't get the sense that he is an "expert".

I don't know what is the best system for me to use... I read a lot about chlorine and bromine, but I also got literature about something called "vision cartridges" that I can buy, the tub has a "ozone jet" but I don't think it has an ozonator, so I don't know if I should get one. The man at the pool place told me I should switch to "softsoak" instead of bromine at my next water change. I've also read about something called baquaspa.

Right now I put 1/4 cup of shock in just about every night, and by the next day the strip shows that there isn't any bromine and the PH is at the top of the charts. I had been given with the tub bromine granules, but the pool man said I had to "activate" them. Today I went there again and bought the floater thing with the tablets, and I shocked it. It's just that I don't like how it smells, it's cloudy and the PH is always high.

I'm so frustrated I'm ready to sell this damn thing on ebay! :-) The problem is I bought it for a therapy for my son who has cerebral palsy, so we are using it almost every day, but it seems if I miss a day of putting in chemicals, then I can't use it the next day. Does a spa really require DAILY maintenance? What happens if we go on vacation?

Sorry, tons of questions from a frustrated new owner....

thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it!

jen

[Private Shrink]

Hi everyone,

I really want to thank you all for all of the information and advice you are so willing to share. I've read a lot on this board in the last few weeks and I am just so frustrated that I decided to come out of the shadows and post my issue.

First off, I feel like I need to be a chemist to get this all straight. I've had a D1 Wayfarer for about 6 weeks now, and have drained it twice because I can't get it right. My other problem is I live in a very remote location, and the dealer we bought this from is 3 hours away, and there aren't any pool places that do water tests local. I've brought samples to the closest one twice now (45 minutes) but I don't get the sense that he is an "expert".

I don't know what is the best system for me to use... I read a lot about chlorine and bromine, but I also got literature about something called "vision cartridges" that I can buy, the tub has a "ozone jet" but I don't think it has an ozonator, so I don't know if I should get one. The man at the pool place told me I should switch to "softsoak" instead of bromine at my next water change. I've also read about something called baquaspa.

Right now I put 1/4 cup of shock in just about every night, and by the next day the strip shows that there isn't any bromine and the PH is at the top of the charts. I had been given with the tub bromine granules, but the pool man said I had to "activate" them. Today I went there again and bought the floater thing with the tablets, and I shocked it. It's just that I don't like how it smells, it's cloudy and the PH is always high.

I'm so frustrated I'm ready to sell this damn thing on ebay! :-) The problem is I bought it for a therapy for my son who has cerebral palsy, so we are using it almost every day, but it seems if I miss a day of putting in chemicals, then I can't use it the next day. Does a spa really require DAILY maintenance? What happens if we go on vacation?

Sorry, tons of questions from a frustrated new owner....

thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it!

jen

I certainly don't want to present myself as anything close to an expert, but I can share my experiences since August, when I got my Sundance Capri. As I understand, there really are only three bonafide approaches to good water maintenance...Chlorine, Bromine, and Baguaside (sp?). I personally was hesistant to go with Chlorine because of the possible smell, considering that my hot tub is indoors in a sunroom. Most of the experts, however, insist that when done correctly there shouldn't be any smell or particular problems. I decided on the third choice, initially using SoftSoak because it came with my hot tub, and then eventually switching to BaquaSpa, which is the same thing but just another brand. The knock against BaquaSpa has been that it's too expensive and that there is often an accumulation of brown gook. I gotta tell you that I've been VERY happy with BaquaSpa. This is the first hot tub I've ever had, and the water has always been terrific. However, my wife and I are very careful. For example, we always shower before going in and we go in naked. Few other people use it (kids are off to college) and I probably get a bit compulsive in insisting that they shower and skip bathing suits if willing. As for maintenance, ONCE A WEEK is all it takes. I test the water with a strip, and adjust for pH, total alkalinity, calcium hardness, and sanitizer. Nearly everytime, all those measures are perfect and don't need any chemicals except the sanitizer...which I add once a week, along with a set amount of Waterline Control and Oxidizer. I can't compare costs to other methods because this is the only one I've used, but I did buy most of it over the Internet at what I think is a reasonable price. It'll probably end up costing me a couple of hundred dollars for the year. Not bad for using it everyday and having crystal clear, non-smelling, great feeling water. There is a bit of the brown gook around the filter, so every few weeks I remove it, but it doesn't affect the bather because it is isolated from the person. My wife and I marvel at how easy and perfect this approach has been so far. My pH is always good as are the other variables. No, I am not a salesman for the product. I empty and refill once every few months as we do use it every day or so. Hope you end up enjoying your tub as much as we do. I would think that it would be very nice for someone with CP, so good luck.

[jencorr]

Thank you so much! I've been reading everything I can on line, and decided to give softsoak a try. I ordered a starter kit on line and we are going to drain and start over this weekend. I can't get over the fact that I feel like I need to be a chemist to do this. My neighbors all have pools and never had troubles, so I thought I could handle this.

I figure if this ends up not being right, then I'll drain it and try something else... or just drain the damn thing every other week when it turns into a swamp :-) hehehe

thanks again,

Jen

[chem geek]

[EDIT] I was wrong about what I said in this post about SoftSwim since it is indeed the same as BaquaSpa (both are Biguanide) and is also the same as SoftSoak which is what I meant originally, so ignore it and read later posts. [END-EDIT]

SoftSwim and BaquaSpa are not the same thing. SoftSwim uses a chemical that is essentially an algaecide (a different chemical than found in PolyQuat 60%, but not that dissimilar except that the concentration of the chemical in SoftSwim is only 20%) and as far as I can tell has not been shown to be a good disinfectant -- that is, I don't see where it effectively kills bacteria and viruses. BaquaSpa is a Biguanide so is one of the three main disinfectants referred to earlier, though it has not been shown to be effective against viruses (though it does appear to be effective against bacteria and algae). Only bromine and chlorine are effective disinfectants against both bacteria and viruses and also prevent algae. Also, bromine and especially chlorine are generally less expensive though in a spa this isn't as much of a consideration as with a pool.

[Private Shrink]

SoftSwim and BaquaSpa are not the same thing. SoftSwim uses a chemical that is essentially an algaecide (a different chemical than found in PolyQuat 60%, but not that dissimilar except that the concentration of the chemical in SoftSwim is only 20%) and as far as I can tell has not been shown to be a good disinfectant -- that is, I don't see where it effectively kills bacteria and viruses. BaquaSpa is a Biguanide so is one of the three main disinfectants referred to earlier, though it has not been shown to be effective against viruses (though it does appear to be effective against bacteria and algae). Only bromine and chlorine are effective disinfectants against both bacteria and viruses and also prevent algae. Also, bromine and especially chlorine are generally less expensive though in a spa this isn't as much of a consideration as with a pool.

chem geek, with all due respect we are referring to SoftSoak, not SoftSwim, and everyone has told me that they are simply different brands of the same Biguanide. I guess I'm vulnerable to viruses according to you.

[chem geek]

Sorry, I meant SoftSoak, not SoftSwim, though they both contain the same ingredient. Look at this link to the MSDS for SoftSoak and this link for the MSDS for SoftSwim and you will see that they are the same and are a completely different chemical (that is similar to polymeric quatenary ammonia compounds such as PolyQuat 60%) than BaquaSpa such as found at this link.

For comparison and a guide of what to look for on the ingredients label (or in the MSDS), here's a sample:

[EDIT] The following is now corrected as I incorrectly thought that SoftSoak/SoftSwim were not Biguanide. [END-EDIT]

SoftSoak, SoftSwim "B", BaquaSpa which contain the following which are different names for the same thing:

Poly(iminocarbonimidoyliminocarbonimidoylimino-1,6-hexanediyl), hydrochloride

Polymeric Biguanide Hydrochloride

Polyhexamethylene Biguanide (PHMB)

PolyQuat:

Poly(oxyethylene) (dimethylimino) ethylene (dimethylimino) ethylene dichloride

The "Poly" in all of the above means that these are all polymers -- very long-chain molecules with repeated units. This is what makes these chemicals viscous and slow to circulate evenly in pool and spa water. The "imino" in both Soft Soak and PolyQuat are ammonium groups with a net positive charge, aka cationic. This makes both of these compounds effective at preventing algae growth and they are also good clarifiers (i.e. they tend to clump suspended solids in water together so that cloudy water can get cleared through filtration).

Sorry for my typo about SoftSwim. SoftSoak and SoftSwim "B" (being the disinfectant of the 3-step package) are the same chemical.

[EDIT]

It seems that there is this misconception that the residential pool and spa market is regulated by some government agency and therefore that products that claim to be sanitizers are effective. That is simply not true. Only the commercial pools and spas are regulated in both sanitizer usage and dosage by individual state health departments and nearly all of them require chlorine to be used for outdoor pools and spas and either chlorine or bromine to be used for indoor pools and spas, though lower levels can be used if they are supplemented by ozone or ultraviolet systems (but the main body of pool water MUST have a powerful disinfectant and that is almost always chlorine). It is true that for residential use, sanitizers are registered with the EPA and show some disinfection capabilities against bacteria, but there are not dosage recommendations in that case for specific bacteria (such as the one that causes "hot tub itch").

The main reason that only the commerical market is as tightly regulated is one of risk and liability. Because of the much heavier usage (bather load) in commercial pools and spas and because many more people are exposed to the water, having proper disinfection is more important. For example, the transmission of viruses , bacteria or protozoa in a commercial setting is clearly of greater concern since one person could infect many while in a residential environment the odds are that most people using the pool or spa are in the same family anyway where close contact is likely to be transmitted. Of course, the main difference in a pool or spa is that viruses, bacteria or protozoa that are only transmitted by feces are more readily transmitted in bodies of water. Cholera (a bacteria) and other diseases were prevalent until water sanitation was done.

Also, because residential pools (though not spas) are not used as heavily, it isn't as critical that the disinfectant be very fast since there is more time available to kill it (since the pool isn't in constant use). Residential spas, on the other hand, have a very small volume of water that is tailored to the number of people able to be in the spa so in this environment it is more important for sanitation to work more quickly, though still not as quickly as in a commercial spa which may get use throughout the day or certainly for many hours at night.

In a pool environment, the typical problems are algae and that won't kill you or make you sick, but is something that will scare people into buying expensive chemicals to prevent and to treat when all that is needed is the proper level of chlorine.

Many people will report that they have no problems using their particular form of sanitation. A lack of problems does not prove that a particular sanitizer is effective. There is no spontaneous generation of organisms so if they aren't there to start with they won't magically appear, but if they do exist (or get blown in by the wind or debris or passed into the water from a body) then they are more likely to thrive in an environment without good disinfection. One needs to look at the cases where there are problems and then see the causes and prevent them. Some people using spas report getting "hot tub itch" which is caused by the bacteria Pseudomonas aeruginosa (which is a hearty and hard-to-kill bug) and this has never been the case in properly sanitized spas. For example, the constant use of Dichlor for sanitation will lead to ineffective disinfection since Dichlor has both chlorine and Cyanuric Acid (CYA) with the latter significantly reducing chlorine's effectiveness and yet there are several spa products that are simply Dichlor. See this post on this forum for more info about the problems with having too much CYA. I could go on, but I think I've said enough.

[END-EDIT]

[tony]

Sorry, but SpaGuard Soft Soak is a Biguanide, same as Baqua Spa and Leisure Time Free. Verified by the MSDS sheets in the links!

[chem geek]

You are right that the MSDS refers to PHMB (which is Polyhexamethylene Biguanide) in their MSDS so that the full chemical name must be what they list and I referred to above. I checked the chemical formula for PHMB and it matches what is described in the full chemical name so you are right and I've corrected my post above. Now what is strange about that is that PHMB is similar in many respects to an algaecide such as PolyQuat and that may be why it is not as effective against viruses as against algae and bacteria. That's what fooled me into thinking that this couldn't be PHMB (Biguanide) since that is touted as such a great sanitizer when in reality it may not be quite as good as advertized. I'd like to specifically see CT (concentration times time) constants for Biguanide against the bacteria that causes Hot Tub Itch.

Thanks for correcting me and being more thorough at looking at the MSDS.

[EDIT] I found the following document at this link that describes more detail about how PHMB should be used, but note that its references are mostly to manufacturers (the 4th reference is not). It normally is not used by itself but in conjunction with hydrogen peroxide. That makes more sense since hydrogen peroxide is a decent oxidizer and would also kill viruses that PHMB may not. It also notes that in pools, an additional algaecide such as PolyQuat is also used.

Even the linked document isn't fully accurate since it talks about Trichlor implying that so long as you maintain 1-3 ppm FC then you have effective sanitation, which is most definitely not true if the CYA levels are high. They refer to "numerous laboratory and field studies" that show that 1-3 ppm FC is fine so long as the CYA is less than 150 ppm, but that is also simply not true as can be seen from the Commercial Spa study found near the end of this link where you can see that there is significant bacterial growth in spas with 130 and 150 ppm CYA and over 1.2 ppm FC. This Commercial Spas Study was one of the main studies used to justify 650 mV as the minimum level of measurement by ORP sensors for sanitized water. Also, it takes more sanitizer to prevent algae growth than it does to kill bacteria and viruses so typically pools with too much CYA and not enough chlorine to compensate end up with algae before they become unsanitary.

[END-EDIT]

[Private Shrink]

You are right that the MSDS refers to PHMB (which is Polyhexamethylene Biguanide) in their MSDS so that the full chemical name must be what they list and I referred to above. I checked the chemical formula for PHMB and it matches what is described in the full chemical name so you are right and I've corrected my post above. Now what is strange about that is that PHMB is similar in many respects to an algaecide such as PolyQuat and that may be why it is not as effective against viruses as against algae and bacteria. That's what fooled me into thinking that this couldn't be PHMB (Biguanide) since that is touted as such a great sanitizer when in reality it may not be quite as good as advertized. I'd like to specifically see CT (concentration times time) constants for Biguanide against the bacteria that causes Hot Tub Itch.

Thanks for correcting me and being more thorough at looking at the MSDS.

[EDIT] I found the following document at this link that describes more detail about how PHMB should be used, but note that its references are mostly to manufacturers (the 4th reference is not). It normally is not used by itself but in conjunction with hydrogen peroxide. That makes more sense since hydrogen peroxide is a decent oxidizer and would also kill viruses that PHMB may not. It also notes that in pools, an additional algaecide such as PolyQuat is also used.

Even the linked document isn't fully accurate since it talks about Trichlor implying that so long as you maintain 1-3 ppm FC then you have effective sanitation, which is most definitely not true if the CYA levels are high. They refer to "numerous laboratory and field studies" that show that 1-3 ppm FC is fine so long as the CYA is less than 150 ppm, but that is also simply not true as can be seen from the Commercial Spa study found near the end of this link where you can see that there is significant bacterial growth in spas with 130 and 150 ppm CYA and over 1.2 ppm FC. This Commercial Spas Study was one of the main studies used to justify 650 mV as the minimum level of measurement by ORP sensors for sanitized water. Also, it takes more sanitizer to prevent algae growth than it does to kill bacteria and viruses so typically pools with too much CYA and not enough chlorine to compensate end up with algae before they become unsanitary.

[END-EDIT]

So I guess when all is said and done, I am safe and happy with my BaquaSpa, and there is good reason to believe that Jen will be also, needing to add stuff only once a week or so.

[jencorr]

I'll just repeat what I said above about having to be a chemist.... you guys LOST me!!!

I'm almost afraid to ask this, but I do have a few other questions.

1 - I just figured out that my spa has an ozonator. Is that ok with softsoak?

2 - Is there a water test kit like the taylor one mentioned around this site that works with softsoak?

3 - Do the water tests at the dealer (or the taylor ones) provide results about the bacteria mentioned above? Chemgeek talks about not being convinced that softsoak will kill algae and bacteria... is there a way to see if it is or not?

Thanks again!! I really appreciate it!

[chem geek]

1. Do not know, but ozone is a strong oxidizer and may break down softsoak (Biguanide). Since Biguanide is incompatible with chlorine and bromine, I suspect it is not compatible with an ozonator. You'll have to ask someone more familiar with that combination.

2. The Taylor K-1725 test kit will test both Biguanide and Hydrogen Peroxide (both are needed and apparently provided in the multi-part softsoak system). However, it is an expensive kit (almost $100) so you might find a less expensive one elsewhere.

3. Bacteria tests are not generally available. Algae you will see while the bacteria that causes "hot tub itch" you will feel, though not everyone is as sensitive to it. If you maintain proper Biguanide and Hydrogen Peroxide levels, I think your spa will be disinfected -- don't worry about that.

The major complaints with the Biguanide system (regardless of manufacterer) are more expensive than other sanitizers, may require special filter cleaning (or replacement), and foaming. I've seen posts of a few users who had algae slime that didn't go away, but that could have been too low levels of Biguanide. However, some users are quite happy with the system. It generally isn't used in pools because of the buildup of chemicals, but in spas you change the water completely every few months so this is not a problem.

[jencorr]

I want to thank you again for taking the time to answer me. I really appreciate it!

I think I'll send a note through the softsoak website and ask about the ozonator.

Jen

[tony]

The major complaints with the Biguanide system (regardless of manufacterer) are more expensive than other sanitizers, may require special filter cleaning (or replacement), and foaming. I've seen posts of a few users who had algae slime that didn't go away, but that could have been too low levels of Biguanide. However, some users are quite happy with the system. It generally isn't used in pools because of the buildup of chemicals, but in spas you change the water completely every few months so this is not a problem.

Other complaints of a Biguanide system are the infamous Baqua cough and the brown goo at the water line.

[Private Shrink]

I want to thank you again for taking the time to answer me. I really appreciate it!

I think I'll send a note through the softsoak website and ask about the ozonator.

Jen

My Sundance Capri has a coronal discharge ozonator, and there isn't any problem with that and SoftSoak/BaquaSpa. It has been suggested that the ozonator reduces the need for sanitizer, but elsewhere I've read that it necessitates more close monitoring of sanitizer levels. So, i just keep an eye on the sanitizer level, that simple. As previously suggested, I don't see any algae and don't feel any itch and the levels all read good on the strip, so I assume I'm okay. I will add, however, that my wife complains of that "Baqua cough" when the air jets are on (different from the water jets). I don't have any problem with it at all.