New Liner Problem

[kevincook]

I am having a new liner installed in my pool. The job is partially done with approximately 8" or water in the shallow end, it appears to me that the liner is actually too small. The installer said he had the liner made with a 4" cove, however my pool never had a cove in the bottom.

The pool is 19x35 grecian and the liner is not even close to touching the wall in the corners and I can't imagine water pressure stretching the liner that much. I would guess that there is 5-7" behind the liner in the corners right now. Will the water pressure acutally push the liner into the corners? There is also 2-3" of space behind the liner in the shallow section which might be due to having the cove in the liner but I'm not sure if that is the entire problem.

My biggest concern is that the coping is actually being pulled away from the concrete on one side of the pool. It looks to me like there is too much pressure from the liner pulling the coping. The coping is still attached to the top of the pool wall. I can't tell if the coping is just twisting or if the pool wall has actually pulled in some. The liner installer is trying to blame the problem on the concrete not being poured correctly. I tried to pull the liner out of the bead track but it is just too tight to lift it up at all in order to get the bead out. I think I'll have to pump some water out to relieve enough pressure.

Any thoughts on what is going on?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Pathfinder]

That should never happen. What r they using to suck the liner in place? If they ordered it with a cove & you have no cove it is not going to fit no matter what way you try to swing it. Adding water is not going to fix anything, I suggest you ask for the measurement sheet for that liner then measure the dimensions again. You are probably goin to find that the measurements are off. They are goin to have to come good with a new liner.

[kevincook]

They used a blower that looks kind of like the blowers they have for drying floors instead of a vacuum cleaner. I don't think that is the problem though.

Does it make sense that the liner could pull down on the coping hard enough to twist it? I checked today and I'm pretty sure the wall hasn't moved at all but the coping is twisting away from the concrete.

How hard should the liner be pulling down? It just seem like too much.

Also, I measured the distance the liners is away from the corners and it is 4.5" - 5.5" on the 45° corners. Does this seem normal?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Pathfinder]

A properly measured liner using a liner vac should be "skintight" everywhere, even in cold temps there should never be that much space from the corner or wall. With that much stress something is going to give, either the liner or the coping.

[kevincook]

Thanks for the help. That is what I was thinking but I wasn't sure if I was being reasonable.

Kevin

[LinerMFGr]

Kevin,

Let me try to address some of your concerns.

It is common for the liner to be away from the corners 5 to 7 inches with only a couple inches of water in the shallow end. It is likely that you will end up with bulging corners after it's filled, but it will be substantially less. Bulging corners are bad, but not the end of the world. I've been on many job sites where the 10 year old liner has bulging corners and they are no worse for wear.

Liner manufacturers apply shrink factors to the dimensions provided--the liner is supposed to stretch into place. Some manufacturers make a tighter fitting liner than others. Did you get a 28mil bottom? That would cause some extra stress on your coping (one of the reasons I always recommend 28 wall with a 20mil bottom). Also, the vinyl used in pool liner fabrication is engineered to stretch 300% at 70 degrees Fahrenheit before rupturing...seams will pop at about 200%, but you get the idea. A good way to figure out what's going on with the liner is to find the floor-to-wall seam. In a perfect world the seam will fall right at the bottom of the wall--a little on the floor. If the pool was measured wrong, one indicator is the floor-to-wall seam is way off from the wall. I've seen a 3 year old liner fail just above the water line because the floor-to-wall seam was 2 feet from the wall.

And regarding your coping--it looks like CP2 powder coated aluminum coping. Properly installed, that should never come off with the vertical force of the liner installation. I suspect the pool's top flange or fastening hardware is compromised or the coping was never installed properly.... or it isn't aluminum cp2 coping.

Alright, now I'm rambling. Hope some of this made sense.

Gotta go--I've got liners to make.

Jeff

[kevincook]

Thanks for the replies. I'm trying to figure out what the problem is with the coping. The fasteners are all hidden by the concrete but it looks like it is properly fastened to the top of the pool wall. The person installing the liner is trying to tell me that the small lip on the top of the coping is supposed to be held in place by the concrete. It doesn't seem possible to me that with a lip that small that the concrete can hold the coping at all. He is trying to blame the problem on the concrete guy from 11 years ago.

Kevin

[kevincook]

Jeff,

The sides are 28mil and the bottom is 20mil.

The installer also told me that he ordered the liner with a 4" cove in the shallow end, however, my pool doesn't have a cove.

Kevin

[LinerMFGr]

Kevin, take some more pictures of the pool and I'll try to figure out what's going on in regards to the liner fit. I don't get why he would order a liner with a 4" cove... and if he did, why he'd tell you about it.

[kevincook]

Thanks, I'll take some more pictures when I get home.

Kevin

[kevincook]

I finally got some pictures this afternoon. I have attached two pictures. One picture shows how tight the liner is in the corners. The bottom edges are also pretty far away from the corners also.

The second picture shows how the coping is pulling away from the concrete. After more examination and measuring today I think the pool wall is actually pulled in about 1".

If that is the case, what do I need to do in order to fix it? Is it possible this happened because the liner was made too small?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Pathfinder]

I dont care what anyone says on a 45 there is absolutely no excuse for that. That install has gone pretty wrong, whether it wasnt set right or the measuring was off that should never pass. I could see maybe a bulge if it was a 90 degree corner with a 6" radius but its a 45. Jeff, you have to agree on that

[LinerMFGr]

Kevin, I'm sure your number 1 concern is regarding your coping, and, unfortunately, I am not a pool building/renovating expert. Hopefully someone else will chime in to help in regards to remediation.

It doesn't look like the fault lies on the installer of the liner--the coping shouldn't fail before the liner. Meaning, the liner should tear apart before the coping tears off the pool wall. 28 wall and 20 bottom should be even more forgiving. Even if the pool was measured wrong, there were obviously preexisting conditions that caused the problem.

I'm not a big fan of the fit in the corners there. Is the pool filled all the way? I can't tell by the pictures. If it is, you definitely have a poor fitting liner. Judging by the 2 pictures it looks like the liner was cut to the dimensions of your pool, but the pictures aren't very telling. All I can see is that I don't see the floor-to-wall seam which means it isn't in the middle of the pool. I need to see where the floor-to-wall seam falls, in various locations, to properly identify the problem.

[LinerMFGr]

I dont care what anyone says on a 45 there is absolutely no excuse for that. That install has gone pretty wrong, whether it wasnt set right or the measuring was off that should never pass. I could see maybe a bulge if it was a 90 degree corner with a 6" radius but its a 45. Jeff, you have to agree on that

I don't think we need to throw the installer under the bus just yet. It could very well be the manufacturers fault. We do make mistakes sometimes... well not me, but the other guys

[Pathfinder]

Looking at the 1st picture in the post again, shouldn't those seams be straight across? To me it almost looks like that liner needs to be shifted like a foot clockwise or is it an illusion.

[kevincook]

I think the seems are straight. I must just be an illusion but I'll double check when I get home.

If I assume the wall is actually pulled in 1" or so, what is the best way to repair the wall now?

Thanks,

Kevin

[LinerMFGr]

I think the seems are straight. I must just be an illusion but I'll double check when I get home.

If I assume the wall is actually pulled in 1" or so, what is the best way to repair the wall now?

Thanks,

Kevin

You're talking about the vertical wall of the pool, right? Not the coping? The pool wall has a chance of collapsing into the pool if the pool is not filled with water. The force of the water counters the force of the earth pushing in on the pool wall. It isn't likely, but it is possible.

If the wall is just out of plumb by 1" that is nothing to worry about. Very many older pools are a little narrower in the middle, at the top of the wall.

Ah-hah! You're saying the pool wall is pulling away from the concrete and taking the coping with it.

disclaimer: I am not a pool renovation expert in any way, shape or form, and what I'm about to tell you is probably wrong. Fill the pool with water if it isn't already. It is unlikely that the wall with fix itself, and there is no easy way to fix it. The a-frame supports seem to be compromised and this could lead to a pool collapse.