Nature 2, Chlorine And Mps

[sagemurphy]

Thank you for all your responses to my questions in my search to find a rash free solution to my hottub.This weekend switched from bromine to nature 2 and chlorine, Spa dealer said to add 1 tablespoon of chlorine at startup and add a teaspoon during the week, also to add 1 tablespoon of mps once a week, Does this sound like enough or should we add a teaspoon mps after each saok ( I don't want to try adding before at this time) Also we never run the spa at 104, usually 98-99, Can you give some suggestions for this system and which chemicals to add and when.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Thank you for all your responses to my questions in my search to find a rash free solution to my hottub.This weekend switched from bromine to nature 2 and chlorine, Spa dealer said to add 1 tablespoon of chlorine at startup and add a teaspoon during the week, also to add 1 tablespoon of mps once a week, Does this sound like enough or should we add a teaspoon mps after each saok ( I don't want to try adding before at this time) Also we never run the spa at 104, usually 98-99, Can you give some suggestions for this system and which chemicals to add and when.

That is not enough, you're asking for trouble if you don't add after each use. I would highly advise you to add 1 teaspoon per person of dichlor (not MPS) after each use. The nice thing is the dichlor will sanitize well after using the spa but by the next day when you go in it will have almost completely dissipated so you won't have a heavy chlorine smell. Then shock once per week with MPS. Many try the same idea but use the MPS after each soak but it just does not do the trick IMO and then you're chasing your tail.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Thank you for all your responses to my questions in my search to find a rash free solution to my hottub.This weekend switched from bromine to nature 2 and chlorine, Spa dealer said to add 1 tablespoon of chlorine at startup and add a teaspoon during the week, also to add 1 tablespoon of mps once a week, Does this sound like enough or should we add a teaspoon mps after each saok ( I don't want to try adding before at this time) Also we never run the spa at 104, usually 98-99, Can you give some suggestions for this system and which chemicals to add and when.

That is not enough, you're asking for trouble if you don't add after each use. I would highly advise you to add 1 teaspoon per person of dichlor (not MPS) after each use. The nice thing is the dichlor will sanitize well after using the spa but by the next day when you go in it will have almost completely dissipated so you won't have a heavy chlorine smell. Then shock once per week with MPS. Many try the same idea but use the MPS after each soak but it just does not do the trick IMO and then you're chasing your tail.

If you read chem geeks finding MPS should be added before each use (previous posts) If you follow the N2 recipe, it says to test MPS before each use and if it is low to add MPS, then add it again after use.

What the dealer told you is to low of an amount of MPS. Our customers have good luck with Dichlor at start up, MPS at each use and shock with dichlor once per week. This keeps it to a minimal amount of chlorine and the CYA level will not get sky high. 4 hours of filtration 2 times per day and clean filters are imperative to this system. If you add it before, you can do it 3-4 hours before so you are not likly to have a reaction to the MPS. You do not want to use the tub if the MPS level is low.

A clarifier also works well with this system. It will help pick up the smaller unfilterables. You can get an all natural clarifier, such as Sea Klear (you can drink this stuff) and use it as part of your weekly chemicals. 1 ounce once per week does wonders.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Our customers have good luck with Dichlor at start up, MPS at each use and shock with dichlor once per week. This keeps it to a minimal amount of chlorine and the CYA level will not get sky high. 4 hours of filtration 2 times per day and clean filters are imperative to this system. If you add it before, you can do it 3-4 hours before so you are not likly to have a reaction to the MPS. You do not want to use the tub if the MPS level is low.

Hmmm, we'll have to disagree on that. I've seen the MPS per use method fail too many times (and have tried it myself more than once) whereas adding dichlor after each use works much much better IMHO. The MPS method is better from a TDS standpoint but that takes a back seat to sanitizing and ease of water care. As far keeping “to a minimal amount of chlorine”, why is that so desirable? Chlorine works great and when you add it after use it dissipates and is almost immeasurable the next day so it’s not an issue. I actually have always had a water care sheet printed for both methods. I tell people what I think is best but some still want to try the MPS method because they feel they want to limit chlorine use (often due to experience with chlorine in pools or dichlor is commercial spas). I give them both sheets and more than a couple have commented later that they tried the MPS method with spotty results and eventually went back to the dichlor method with much better results.

In the end there is no singularly accepted method, everyone has their own way of managing their spa water.

[sagemurphy]

Our customers have good luck with Dichlor at start up, MPS at each use and shock with dichlor once per week. This keeps it to a minimal amount of chlorine and the CYA level will not get sky high. 4 hours of filtration 2 times per day and clean filters are imperative to this system. If you add it before, you can do it 3-4 hours before so you are not likly to have a reaction to the MPS. You do not want to use the tub if the MPS level is low.

Hmmm, we'll have to disagree on that. I've seen the MPS per use method fail too many times (and have tried it myself more than once) whereas adding dichlor after each use works much much better IMHO. The MPS method is better from a TDS standpoint but that takes a back seat to sanitizing and ease of water care. As far keeping “to a minimal amount of chlorine”, why is that so desirable? Chlorine works great and when you add it after use it dissipates and is almost immeasurable the next day so it’s not an issue. I actually have always had a water care sheet printed for both methods. I tell people what I think is best but some still want to try the MPS method because they feel they want to limit chlorine use (often due to experience with chlorine in pools or dichlor is commercial spas). I give them both sheets and more than a couple have commented later that they tried the MPS method with spotty results and eventually went back to the dichlor method with much better results.

In the end there is no singularly accepted method, everyone has their own way of managing their spa water.

[sagemurphy]

If we add 2 teaspoons of dichlor after each soak (2people usually 4-5 times a week, will that get the CYA levels up too quickly? Does a tablespoon of mps weekly sound right, again thanks for so much help, I didn't think the dealer sounded right

[chem geek]

If we add 2 teaspoons of dichlor after each soak (2people usually 4-5 times a week, will that get the CYA levels up too quickly? Does a tablespoon of mps weekly sound right, again thanks for so much help, I didn't think the dealer sounded right

You didn't say the size of your spa, but 2 teaspoons of Dichlor in 350 gallons would raise the FC by about 4 ppm and the CYA by 3.6 ppm. That's probably not quite enough Dichlor as it can take up to 7 ppm in 350 gallons per person-hour of soaking. So it depends on how long you soak and how much you sweat. 2 teaspoons of Dichlor is roughly equivalent to 1 tablespoon of MPS in terms of oxidizing power. Basically, you want to end up with at least some residual by the next time you soak (i.e. you don't want it to get to zero).

Most of the problems I've seen on this forum with the MPS method have been people reporting sensitivity to it. This seems to happen less in Nature2 systems, possibly from the silver getting rid of the irritating component in MPS more quickly.

One way of not building up CYA while still using chlorine is to use Dichlor for about a week and then switch to unscented bleach, but the pH will tend to rise especially if there is aeration from an ozonator or aerating jets. Using Dichlor-only tends to keep the pH more stable in such situations.

Richard

[jdskycaster]

I just started up my new Arctic Tundra this week and have decided to go with this method - Nature2, Chlorine and MPS. My dealer also suggested using Dichlor after each use and shock weekly with MPS. The Nature2 recipe included in the package seems to recommend MPS after each use and then Dichlor weekly. The recipe also states that you can substitue Dichlor for MPS so both methods must be acceptable. I just wonder if this is due to much of the marketing around Nature2 being geared toward "lower" chlorine usage.

This is definitely confusing to say the least. I started the Nature2 system as recommended in the recipe card - shocking the tub with Dichlor. I think I will continue with Dichlor after each use and then shock weekly with MPS.

I am a bit confused on your recommendation for the amount of Dichlor after each use. Is it 2 tsp./person/350gallons? Since my tub holds 500 gallons would I need to add approx. 3 tsp./person to be in the proper range? After adding this how long do you all keep the cover open before closing after each use?

Thanks,

JD

[jdskycaster]

I just started up my new Arctic Tundra this week and have decided to go with this method - Nature2, Chlorine and MPS. My dealer also suggested using Dichlor after each use and shock weekly with MPS. The Nature2 recipe included in the package seems to recommend MPS after each use and then Dichlor weekly. The recipe also states that you can substitue Dichlor for MPS so both methods must be acceptable. I just wonder if this is due to much of the marketing around Nature2 being geared toward "lower" chlorine usage.

This is definitely confusing to say the least. I started the Nature2 system as recommended in the recipe card - shocking the tub with Dichlor. I think I will continue with Dichlor after each use and then shock weekly with MPS.

I am a bit confused on your recommendation for the amount of Dichlor after each use. Is it 2 tsp./person/350gallons? Since my tub holds 500 gallons would I need to add approx. 3 tsp./person to be in the proper range? After adding this how long do you all keep the cover open before closing after each use?

Thanks,

JD

[jdskycaster]

I just started up my new Arctic Tundra this week and have decided to go with this method - Nature2, Chlorine and MPS and ozone. My dealer also suggested using Dichlor after each use and shock weekly with MPS. The Nature2 recipe included in the package seems to recommend MPS after each use and then Dichlor weekly. The recipe also states that you can substitue Dichlor for MPS so both methods must be acceptable. I just wonder if this is due to much of the marketing around Nature2 being geared toward "lower" chlorine usage.

This is definitely confusing to say the least. I started the Nature2 system as recommended in the recipe card - shocking the tub with Dichlor. I think I will continue with Dichlor after each use and then shock weekly with MPS.

I am a bit confused on your recommendation for the amount of Dichlor after each use. Is it 2 tsp./person/350gallons? Since my tub holds 500 gallons would I need to add approx. 4 tsp./person to be in the proper range? After adding this how long do you all keep the cover open before closing after each use?

Thanks,

JD

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I just started up my new Arctic Tundra this week and have decided to go with this method - Nature2, Chlorine and MPS and ozone. My dealer also suggested using Dichlor after each use and shock weekly with MPS. The Nature2 recipe included in the package seems to recommend MPS after each use and then Dichlor weekly. The recipe also states that you can substitue Dichlor for MPS so both methods must be acceptable. I just wonder if this is due to much of the marketing around Nature2 being geared toward "lower" chlorine usage.

I think N2 is a nice addition but those instructions to use MPS/use are to make people feel warm and fuzzy about using less chlorine. They've smartened up and at least show the option of the better method of using chlorine per use. There are 2 issues here IMO. 1) MPS/use just doesn't work well. 2) Trying to limit chlorine is counterproductive. Chlorine is your friend in spas, embrace it and you will haev cleaner/clearer water.

Here is what I do and what I recommend to people (having completed about a thousand spa orientations for new spa owners).

Add 1 generous teaspoon of dichlor per person after each use. If you don't use the spa for 3 or 4 days in between uses or if the water starts to turn cloudy on you give a hit then too. Shock once per week with MPS (you can shock with dichlor as well but I'd use MPS, no biggie). Check your PH/Alk once per week (adjust as needed). Clean your filter(s) thoroughly every month (maybe rinse off for 3 minutes mid-month during heavy use periods).

[chem geek]

The rule (which was roughly determined based on many users usage patterns on this forum plus some theoretical chlorine demand from sweat) was needing up to 7 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) per person-hour of soaking in 350 gallons. This works out to about 5 ppm FC in 500 gallons for the same quantity of chlorine and in both cases this is 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor -- but again that is for a person-hour of soaking. Usually people don't soak for more than 30 minutes (especially if the temperature is near 104F) so assuming 30 minute soaking that would be about 1-1/2 teaspoons per person. This is not far from what spatech recommends (starting with 1 generous teaspoon) and as he indicated you can adjust based on your results. One easy way to tell if you are adding enough chlorine is to see if you have any FC residual the next day before you soak -- if it's zero, you need to add more chlorine. If it's measurable and higher than you want to soak in, then you are adding too much chlorine.

Richard

[jdskycaster]

Thanks to both for the replies. Sorry for the multiple posts but I tried to edit my original post and kept getting database errors.

I will start with the generous tsp. per user based on 30 min soaking time and adjust accordingly based on heavier usage and/or test readings the next day.

Thanks again,

JD

[spatech (the unreal one)]

The rule (which was roughly determined based on many users usage patterns on this forum plus some theoretical chlorine demand from sweat) was needing up to 7 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) per person-hour of soaking in 350 gallons. This works out to about 5 ppm FC in 500 gallons for the same quantity of chlorine and in both cases this is 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor -- but again that is for a person-hour of soaking. Usually people don't soak for more than 30 minutes (especially if the temperature is near 104F) so assuming 30 minute soaking that would be about 1-1/2 teaspoons per person. This is not far from what spatech recommends (starting with 1 generous teaspoon) and as he indicated you can adjust based on your results. One easy way to tell if you are adding enough chlorine is to see if you have any FC residual the next day before you soak -- if it's zero, you need to add more chlorine. If it's measurable and higher than you want to soak in, then you are adding too much chlorine.

Richard

Chem Geek,

You've forgotten more about the science of water care than I'll ever know and I would never doubt your numbers. the reason I use such simplistic terms (1 generous teaspoon per person) is I see the faces of the people I am teaching water care maintenance to and I know that if its not in simplistic terms (certainly not to all but for the majority of people) their heads start to spin and I’ll hear the old "this is too hard" battle cry. I remember when I first started doing it and I was trying to be precise and educational. Over time I realized they're going to forget most of what I say and concentrate on the sheet of paper I give them so I made everything step by step "spa care for Dummies" like and customers loved it and would say "that seems simple enough".

I also started with two set of instructions; one for those who want to use MPS/use and the other for those who were willing to use the chlorine per use. After time and after stories of how poorly the MPS/use method really works I pretty much told everyone there are two methods with N2 but I only recommend the chlorine/use method. For a few who have been told by relatives to avoid chlorine or had pools when they were young and had a mental block about chlorine I'd give both sheets to them but heavily dissuaded them from going the N2 route and told them “here is the better method when you run into problems by trying to only use MPS/use”.

[benalexe]

Waht is the difference between MPS and DIchlor?

If I put MPS in will it show up on the test stip as Chlorine?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Waht is the difference between MPS and DIchlor?

If I put MPS in will it show up on the test stip as Chlorine?

MPS is a chlorine free shock. It will effect the chlorine reading on your test strip but it ha no chlorine in it.

[benalexe]

Waht is the difference between MPS and DIchlor?

If I put MPS in will it show up on the test stip as Chlorine?

MPS is a chlorine free shock. It will effect the chlorine reading on your test strip but it ha no chlorine in it.

ok so what is the diference? why one over the other???

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Waht is the difference between MPS and DIchlor?

If I put MPS in will it show up on the test stip as Chlorine?

MPS is a chlorine free shock. It will effect the chlorine reading on your test strip but it ha no chlorine in it.

ok so what is the diference? why one over the other???

Mps is a non chlorine shock, no chlorine at all. it is strictly an oxidizer.

Dichlor is chlronie an oxidizer and sanitizer.

Some people want a "chlorine free" tub or low chlorine tub, so they rely on the N2 and very low risdual of chorine to sanitize the tub. They use the MPS to oxidize the wastes. If it gets cloudy, that add a little dichlor to clear it up.

The low chlorine recipe is much harder to keep clear water, specially with heavy use and children.

[benalexe]

why do some people who use dichlor still shock the water with MPS once a week. Why not just add a few ounces of dichlor?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

why do some people who use dichlor still shock the water with MPS once a week. Why not just add a few ounces of dichlor?

Mps is a better oxidizer, reduces chlorine smell, reduces the CYA you are adding to the tub. (di-chlor has CYA which if it gets to high reduces the effectivness of chlorine and makes some people itch)

[waterpen]

Here is what I do and what I recommend to people (having completed about a thousand spa orientations for new spa owners).

Add 1 generous teaspoon of dichlor per person after each use. If you don't use the spa for 3 or 4 days in between uses or if the water starts to turn cloudy on you give a hit then too. Shock once per week with MPS (you can shock with dichlor as well but I'd use MPS, no biggie).

Has anyone tried using lithium hypochlorite instead of dichlor with the Nature 2 cartridge?

[chem geek]

Lithium hypochlorite will have the same issues as bleach since it is not net acidic as Dichlor is (Dichlor is fairly neutral upon addition, but chlorine usage is acidic so the net result appears more pH neutral vs. the pH rise from outgassing of carbon dioxide from aeration).

There was one user I conversed with who used Lithium hypochlorite, but I don't think they had Nature 2 -- I believe they had an ozonator.

Lithium hypochlorite is very expensive and has no real advantages over bleach (especially Clorox Regular which seems to have a lower pH of 11.4 compared to most off-brand Ultra bleaches with a pH of 12.5 so less of an apparent pH rise if you use Clorox Regular). Well, I suppose it has one advantage -- it's less weight to carry since it's more concentrated at 35% Available Chlorine compared to 5.7% for bleach.

If you have an ozonator or like lots of aeration from jets, then you'll have a lot of pH rise using any hypochlorite source of chlorine. The only people who seemed happy with using bleach were those without an ozonator and who minimized the aeration from jets (they also kept their TA lower) since the pH rise was not as strong and more manageable. Dichlor was used for the first week and then the switch was made to bleach.

Richard

[waterpen]

Lithium hypochlorite will have the same issues as bleach since it is not net acidic as Dichlor is (Dichlor is fairly neutral upon addition, but chlorine usage is acidic so the net result appears more pH neutral vs. the pH rise from outgassing of carbon dioxide from aeration).

There was one user I conversed with who used Lithium hypochlorite, but I don't think they had Nature 2 -- I believe they had an ozonator.

Lithium hypochlorite is very expensive and has no real advantages over bleach (especially Clorox Regular which seems to have a lower pH of 11.4 compared to most off-brand Ultra bleaches with a pH of 12.5 so less of an apparent pH rise if you use Clorox Regular). Well, I suppose it has one advantage -- it's less weight to carry since it's more concentrated at 35% Available Chlorine compared to 5.7% for bleach.

Richard

Thanks Richard,

I thought that the ph for Lithium was about the same as Dichlor, and certainly not as high (basic) as bleach.

Here is what if found at http://www.thetubstore.com/care.html regarding ph and available chlorine:

Lithium Hypochlorite (35% Available Chlorine, pH 8)

Sodium Dichlor (65% available chlorine, pH 7)

Any addtional thoughts?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Lithium hypochlorite will have the same issues as bleach since it is not net acidic as Dichlor is (Dichlor is fairly neutral upon addition, but chlorine usage is acidic so the net result appears more pH neutral vs. the pH rise from outgassing of carbon dioxide from aeration).

There was one user I conversed with who used Lithium hypochlorite, but I don't think they had Nature 2 -- I believe they had an ozonator.

Lithium hypochlorite is very expensive and has no real advantages over bleach (especially Clorox Regular which seems to have a lower pH of 11.4 compared to most off-brand Ultra bleaches with a pH of 12.5 so less of an apparent pH rise if you use Clorox Regular). Well, I suppose it has one advantage -- it's less weight to carry since it's more concentrated at 35% Available Chlorine compared to 5.7% for bleach.

Richard

Thanks Richard,

I thought that the ph for Lithium was about the same as Dichlor, and certainly not as high (basic) as bleach.

Here is what if found at http://www.thetubstore.com/care.html regarding ph and available chlorine:

Lithium Hypochlorite (35% Available Chlorine, pH 8)

Sodium Dichlor (65% available chlorine, pH 7)

Any addtional thoughts?

I was taught Litium was a PH of about 10, 8 sounds way to low. I would research that further, but maybe there is something in it that helps stablize the kind they carry??

[waterpen]

I was taught Litium was a PH of about 10, 8 sounds way to low. I would research that further, but maybe there is something in it that helps stablize the kind they carry??

Yes, I coiuple of other online sources list the ph of Lithium Hypochlorite as around 10. I wonder why such a difference? And what actaullly happens to the ph as it is "used up"?