Do I Have To Drain?

[iris1971]

I am new to this and am very disappointed already. I'm hoping someone can help.

Our tub was delivered on 1/15, we filled it (started with well water and about 1/3 of the way i decided city water was probably a better option since it had already been treated to drinking standards) and followed the instructions on the chemicals, waited one day and got in. Everything was great the first few days. I added what I believed to be the appropriate amount of chemicals every time we got out. I noticed the water never got sparkling clear like they do in the showroom but thought it was from tiny air bubbles created by the ozonator maybe.

Here comes the problem. As of 3 days ago I have what appears to folliculitis. This means that something went wacky in about one week! On the first dip it was my husband, two of our friends and myself. Since then, my husband has been in every day I was. So far nobody is coming up with the same symptoms. I was checking the levels every morning (and sometimes later in the afternoon because it was fun) and of course the chlorine was depleted to pretty much nothing each time. Once I started trying to figure it out I realized I wasn't sure if I had been adding the DiChlor or the non-chlorine shock each time we got out.

I've stayed out of the tub and won't let anyone else in until I figure this out. Do you all think it was pseudomonas growing in there already or possibly a reaction of some sort? The first 3 times I went in I was not wearing a suit and the rash came one day after I went in with a suit. I shocked the tub the other day and have been monitoring the levels of everything. It seems to be clearer and everything is checking out fine. I am interested to hear everyone weigh in and let me know what you think the problem was and if I need to drain it. I can't believe if it was pseudomonas it could have grown that bad in a couple days.

The tub is not exposed to the sun, has an ozonator, mineral filter and a 24 hour circ pump. 510 gallons. Temp set at 99 degrees. The two of us were getting in for about an hour every other night.

[chem geek]

I don't think it's bacteria, but more likely a reaction to something in the water. It could be monochloramine, depending on exactly what happened. Monochloramine comes in some tap water (check your water quality report to see if they use chlorine or monochloramine as a residual) and you could have built some up if you didn't use enough chlorine or non-chlorine shock. See this link for some (possible) unusual reactions to monochloramine.

If you have a good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 or the tftestkits.com TF100 then you can test for Combined Chlorine and if it's > 0.5 ppm, then that might be what the problem is (of course, time has passed and some shocking has been done so maybe the problem has gone away).

Richard

[iris1971]

I don't think it's bacteria, but more likely a reaction to something in the water. It could be monochloramine, depending on exactly what happened. Monochloramine comes in some tap water (check your water quality report to see if they use chlorine or monochloramine as a residual) and you could have built some up if you didn't use enough chlorine or non-chlorine shock. See this link for some (possible) unusual reactions to monochloramine.

If you have a good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 or the tftestkits.com TF100 then you can test for Combined Chlorine and if it's > 0.5 ppm, then that might be what the problem is (of course, time has passed and some shocking has been done so maybe the problem has gone away).

Richard

I checked the water report and there is no reference to monochloramine. I think maybe I will keep up with the chemicals until this rash clears up and try it one more time. I reallllly hate the idea of draining it right off the bat and am hopeful that I'm not being foolish by thinking it would be virtually impossible to have a bacteria problem so early in the process. I will go tomorrow and try to locate the test kit you recommend.

I have another question also. When I add the chemicals (whatever it may be) should I be running the jets to circulate or should the normal circulation pump do the job?

Cindy

[wireman]

You weren't even sure if you were adding the shock or the sanitizer.. I think you should start with making sure you're adding the right chemical.

[chem geek]

You will probably not find those test kits in the stores. The K-2005 might be found, but is not the same. You can find the Taylor K-2006 at a good price online here. Or you can order the TF100 from tftestkits.com here which has 36% more volume of reagents so it's about the same price per number of tests in the kit.

Your fill water probably just used chlorine as a residual, but if you used the spa and didn't use enough chlorine or non-chlorine shock, then you may have built up irritating contaminants. It is also possible that if the disinfection was very low that bacteria could have grown and it doesn't take long since they double in population in 15 minutes to an hour (in near ideal conditions). So in 24 hours, one bacteria can grow to from 8 million to 40,000 trillion trillion, but in practice nutrients are limited, though I think you get the point that it doesn't take long for bacteria to grow if there's nothing to stop them.

If you can remember exactly how much you added of each chemical how often, and how often how many people were in the spa, and the size of the spa, then I can let you know if the right chemicals were used in the right quantities. If you don't remember the details or just want to move forward at this point, then I suggest shocking the spa with chlorine, but to know whether to use Dichlor or bleach I'd need to know at least roughly how much Dichlor (chlorine granules) you've added cumulatively.

Richard

[iris1971]

You will probably not find those test kits in the stores. The K-2005 might be found, but is not the same. You can find the Taylor K-2006 at a good price online here. Or you can order the TF100 from tftestkits.com here which has 36% more volume of reagents so it's about the same price per number of tests in the kit.

Your fill water probably just used chlorine as a residual, but if you used the spa and didn't use enough chlorine or non-chlorine shock, then you may have built up irritating contaminants. It is also possible that if the disinfection was very low that bacteria could have grown and it doesn't take long since they double in population in 15 minutes to an hour (in near ideal conditions). So in 24 hours, one bacteria can grow to from 8 million to 40,000 trillion trillion, but in practice nutrients are limited, though I think you get the point that it doesn't take long for bacteria to grow if there's nothing to stop them.

If you can remember exactly how much you added of each chemical how often, and how often how many people were in the spa, and the size of the spa, then I can let you know if the right chemicals were used in the right quantities. If you don't remember the details or just want to move forward at this point, then I suggest shocking the spa with chlorine, but to know whether to use Dichlor or bleach I'd need to know at least roughly how much Dichlor (chlorine granules) you've added cumulatively.

Richard

the reason i am second guessing myself is i was told by the salesman i should add chlorine every time we got out. then today i called a supply place about my issue and the guy almost swallowed his tongue when i told him i was adding chlorine every time we got out. it clearly says on the shock bottle that it should be added after every use so i thought "maybe i was adding shock and just got ahead of myself when i was explaining it to him". i can't imagine i didn't follow the directions.

at any rate, i added 3 tablespoons of dichlor at start up and there was only one day within the week that i didn't add anything and the chlorine level was so low it didn't even register on the strip. i just checked my chemicals and i have used about 1/3 of a 2 lb. container of shock and about 1/3 of a 2 lb. container of dichlor. i don't know if this tells you what you need to know but i appreciate the effort.

[iris1971]

You will probably not find those test kits in the stores. The K-2005 might be found, but is not the same. You can find the Taylor K-2006 at a good price online here. Or you can order the TF100 from tftestkits.com here which has 36% more volume of reagents so it's about the same price per number of tests in the kit.

Your fill water probably just used chlorine as a residual, but if you used the spa and didn't use enough chlorine or non-chlorine shock, then you may have built up irritating contaminants. It is also possible that if the disinfection was very low that bacteria could have grown and it doesn't take long since they double in population in 15 minutes to an hour (in near ideal conditions). So in 24 hours, one bacteria can grow to from 8 million to 40,000 trillion trillion, but in practice nutrients are limited, though I think you get the point that it doesn't take long for bacteria to grow if there's nothing to stop them.

If you can remember exactly how much you added of each chemical how often, and how often how many people were in the spa, and the size of the spa, then I can let you know if the right chemicals were used in the right quantities. If you don't remember the details or just want to move forward at this point, then I suggest shocking the spa with chlorine, but to know whether to use Dichlor or bleach I'd need to know at least roughly how much Dichlor (chlorine granules) you've added cumulatively.

Richard

i guess it would help if i answered all of your questions, wouldn;t it?

it is a 510 gallon spa

day 1 - i added three tablespoons of dichlor at start up that morning

there were 4 people in that night for about 1 hour

i added either the dichlor or the shock when we got out

day 2- i checked the water and added dichlor to 3 ppm

2 people in that night

i added either the dichlor or the shock that night

day 3 - i did nothing

day 4 - added dichlor

2 people in that night

added dichlor or shock

day 5 - rinsed filters

day 6 - i turned spotty

shocked and added extra chlorine in a panic

for the last 3 days we haven;t been in so i have been adding dichlor as needed shown by the test strips. the water does look somewhat better.

like i said in the last post, i have used about a third of each 2lb. container of dichlor and shock.

[chem geek]

The 3 tablespoons of Dichlor in 510 gallons would give around 12 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) and 11 ppm Cyanuric Acid (CYA). The chlorine might still have been on the high side by that night, but 4 people for 1 hours would likely have used up most of that chlorine. It would take around 2 teaspoons of Dichlor to add 3 ppm FC on the second day.

Do you know what kind of shock you are using? Does it say non-chlorine shock or potassium monopersulfate (MPS) in the ingredients?

It sounds like you turned spotty two days after you used the spa (used on day 4; spotty on day 6), is that right?

At any rate, since it does sound like you added chlorine and had some residual of it when people used the spa, I doubt that you had hot tub itch bacteria flourishing in the spa. Also, between the ozonator and the mineral (silver?) filter, I doubt very much bacteria was growing. If the shock is MPS, then perhaps you have a skin sensitivity to it though I would have expected that to show up sooner after using the spa, but perhaps it takes a while. Some people are sensitive to MPS.

My best guess from the information you gave is that you have a sensitivity to MPS shock. That doesn't mean you can't use it, but you may get into a regimen of just using it once a week and not using the spa for some time (perhaps 24 hours) after its addition. In the meantime, you'd use chlorine.

As for chlorine and shock quantities, 2/3rds of a 2 pound container is a lot -- 10.7 ounces -- and for the Dichlor would represent 87 ppm FC and 79 ppm CYA cumulatively added. Even for startup and 6 days, that's a lot. It was probably the large quantity of non-chlorine shock that triggered your reaction.

So from this point forward, you should switch to using unscented bleach (e.g. 6% Clorox Regular) by adding it very slowly over a return flow with the circulation pump running and the jets off. If you want, you can get a bucket of spa water and add the bleach to it, mix, then add it slowly back into the spa. 4 fluid ounces of 6% bleach would add 3.8 ppm FC which is a good target amount for one person in the spa. Add 2-3 ppm FC for each additional person that uses the spa (for up to an hour). When you get a good test kit, you'll get a better idea for the usage rate per person-hour. You don't have to have 4 ppm FC when you get into the spa, but should add enough to have roughly that amount when you get out if only one person was soaking. If you have 4 people using a spa, then you'll need more chlorine added when you get out (maybe 10 ppm FC, but you'll have to see how it goes). A good test kit is key since that will not only tell you when you have enough FC, but also if you are keeping down Combined Chlorine (CC).

I think you'll be fine. Just don't add the MPS so frequently. In fact, if your ozonator is working properly, you shouldn't need MPS at all or at least only once in a while, but as I said above you could add it no more than once a week and don't go in for a bit afterwards. The amount of MPS to add is around 2-4 ounces for your size spa and though they say to add that daily, I would just use it once a week and let the chlorine and ozonator handle your daily usage.

Richard

[iris1971]

The 3 tablespoons of Dichlor in 510 gallons would give around 12 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) and 11 ppm Cyanuric Acid (CYA). The chlorine might still have been on the high side by that night, but 4 people for 1 hours would likely have used up most of that chlorine. It would take around 2 teaspoons of Dichlor to add 3 ppm FC on the second day.

Do you know what kind of shock you are using? Does it say non-chlorine shock or potassium monopersulfate (MPS) in the ingredients?

It sounds like you turned spotty two days after you used the spa (used on day 4; spotty on day 6), is that right?

At any rate, since it does sound like you added chlorine and had some residual of it when people used the spa, I doubt that you had hot tub itch bacteria flourishing in the spa. Also, between the ozonator and the mineral (silver?) filter, I doubt very much bacteria was growing. If the shock is MPS, then perhaps you have a skin sensitivity to it though I would have expected that to show up sooner after using the spa, but perhaps it takes a while. Some people are sensitive to MPS.

My best guess from the information you gave is that you have a sensitivity to MPS shock. That doesn't mean you can't use it, but you may get into a regimen of just using it once a week and not using the spa for some time (perhaps 24 hours) after its addition. In the meantime, you'd use chlorine.

As for chlorine and shock quantities, 2/3rds of a 2 pound container is a lot -- 10.7 ounces -- and for the Dichlor would represent 87 ppm FC and 79 ppm CYA cumulatively added. Even for startup and 6 days, that's a lot. It was probably the large quantity of non-chlorine shock that triggered your reaction.

So from this point forward, you should switch to using unscented bleach (e.g. 6% Clorox Regular) by adding it very slowly over a return flow with the circulation pump running and the jets off. If you want, you can get a bucket of spa water and add the bleach to it, mix, then add it slowly back into the spa. 4 fluid ounces of 6% bleach would add 3.8 ppm FC which is a good target amount for one person in the spa. Add 2-3 ppm FC for each additional person that uses the spa (for up to an hour). When you get a good test kit, you'll get a better idea for the usage rate per person-hour. You don't have to have 4 ppm FC when you get into the spa, but should add enough to have roughly that amount when you get out if only one person was soaking. If you have 4 people using a spa, then you'll need more chlorine added when you get out (maybe 10 ppm FC, but you'll have to see how it goes). A good test kit is key since that will not only tell you when you have enough FC, but also if you are keeping down Combined Chlorine (CC).

I think you'll be fine. Just don't add the MPS so frequently. In fact, if your ozonator is working properly, you shouldn't need MPS at all or at least only once in a while, but as I said above you could add it no more than once a week and don't go in for a bit afterwards. The amount of MPS to add is around 2-4 ounces for your size spa and though they say to add that daily, I would just use it once a week and let the chlorine and ozonator handle your daily usage.

Richard

well all of that definitely makes me feel better about the whole bacteria thing. and it is the MPS type of shock i was using. i will order a test kit, stay out for a couple more days and buy some bleach. hopefully this will all work itself out. although, i am definitely re-thinking inviting people to get in the tub. seems like it makes more work than its worth!

thanks for all the info. i will check back and let you know how it works out.

cindy

[chem geek]

Cindy,

Though it's a little early to be certain about this, some preliminary data seems to indicate a formula for roughly figuring how much chlorine and/or MPS would be needed based on the number of bathers and soak time. People sweat a lot in a spa so the chlorine demand is quite high and if you don't add enough chlorine to take care of it, then you won't be able to get to a measured chlorine residual and that could allow bacteria to grow. The number we have so far is 2.3 ppm FC in 350 gallons for one person soaking 20 minutes. For your 510 gallon spa this translates into 4.7 ppm FC per bather-hour and it takes 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach (e.g. Clorox Regular or off-brand Ultra) to get that. So you could add chlorine after a soak using this rough formula based on your "number of bathers" times "number of hours" of soak time and see what sort of FC you measure just before your next soak and adjust accordingly so you still have some FC when you next get in. For ultimate safety, you'd want a larger FC even when you get in (so enough FC to handle the anticipated demand for that soak), but that's probably only needed if you have a group of people to prevent transmission from one person to another (fecal-to-oral route) and it's being real conservative (but is important for public and commercial pool situations). I would just go with the adding of chlorine after a soak and measuring some residual, even 1 ppm FC, when you next get in. The bacteria won't grow very much in just the hour that you are in the spa and with your ozonator and silver you're at very low risk. I think the main issue is just to handle the ammonia/urea from the sweat and to not overdo the MPS (if you need it at all -- you can try not using it and if the water looks dull then try using it once a week, etc.).

I want to remind you to slowly add the bleach over a return flow with the circulation pump running and the jets off. For extra safety, you can fill a bucket with water from the spa and then add the bleach to it, mix, then add this bucket of water back to the spa slowly over a return flow. Concentrated bleach is heavier than water so you don't want it settling to the bottom, but when it's mixed or diluted it no longer settles.

Richard

[TinyBubbles]

I am new to this and am very disappointed already. I'm hoping someone can help.

Our tub was delivered on 1/15, we filled it (started with well water and about 1/3 of the way i decided city water was probably a better option since it had already been treated to drinking standards) and followed the instructions on the chemicals, waited one day and got in. Everything was great the first few days. I added what I believed to be the appropriate amount of chemicals every time we got out. I noticed the water never got sparkling clear like they do in the showroom but thought it was from tiny air bubbles created by the ozonator maybe.

Here comes the problem. As of 3 days ago I have what appears to folliculitis. This means that something went wacky in about one week! On the first dip it was my husband, two of our friends and myself. Since then, my husband has been in every day I was. So far nobody is coming up with the same symptoms. I was checking the levels every morning (and sometimes later in the afternoon because it was fun) and of course the chlorine was depleted to pretty much nothing each time. Once I started trying to figure it out I realized I wasn't sure if I had been adding the DiChlor or the non-chlorine shock each time we got out.

I've stayed out of the tub and won't let anyone else in until I figure this out. Do you all think it was pseudomonas growing in there already or possibly a reaction of some sort? The first 3 times I went in I was not wearing a suit and the rash came one day after I went in with a suit. I shocked the tub the other day and have been monitoring the levels of everything. It seems to be clearer and everything is checking out fine. I am interested to hear everyone weigh in and let me know what you think the problem was and if I need to drain it. I can't believe if it was pseudomonas it could have grown that bad in a couple days.

The tub is not exposed to the sun, has an ozonator, mineral filter and a 24 hour circ pump. 510 gallons. Temp set at 99 degrees. The two of us were getting in for about an hour every other night.

Hi Cindy, I was like you. If I wore a suit in the tub, spots. No suit, no spots. It's so odd. The dr. says that the suit keeps the water in contact with your skin longer, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe in a pool, where you lounge by the pool in a wet suit. That's not the case with the spa. My suit would come off as soon as I was out of the spa. There has to be a logical explanation, but I can't figure it out. I really don't think you need to drain it. If you've shocked it and then maintained good sanitizer levels, you are probably ok.