Questions About Chemistry And Water Circulation

[Whoneedsavacation]

I have a few questions I don't think I've ever seen addressed. To set the stage, our spa has some limitations, that being the compromise for a relatively affordable tub. You can turn the air to the jets on or off, you can turn some of the jets up, down or off, and you can shift the flow from one set of jets to another, or have both on. There is no option to circulate water without running it through the filter. You can also adjust the frequency of filtration cycles.

1) When the tub is not in use, is it better to have the jets injecting air during filtration cycles or not? The pH tends to stay high even when allowing air during filtration cycles.

2) How do you decide what is the optimal setting for filtration cycles? The default is, I believe, twice a day for an hour. What would drive me to change that?

3) When the water gets a bit cloudy from small particles, the clarifier instructions suggest adding the chemical, running circulation without filtration for five minutes, then run the filtration for an hour. My compromise is to scatter the chemical over as much surface as I can and stir well by hand. Let sit five minutes and then turn the circulation on for an hour. Is this my best compromise? Does it matter if the jets are aerating or not for this?

[poolyeti]

Whoneeds, how often do you clean your filter? If the water can never circulate without being filtered, then you shouldn't ever really have problems with little particles. Otherwise, your solution for mixing the clairfier sounds fine.

[TinyBubbles]

I have a few questions I don't think I've ever seen addressed. To set the stage, our spa has some limitations, that being the compromise for a relatively affordable tub. You can turn the air to the jets on or off, you can turn some of the jets up, down or off, and you can shift the flow from one set of jets to another, or have both on. There is no option to circulate water without running it through the filter. You can also adjust the frequency of filtration cycles.

1) When the tub is not in use, is it better to have the jets injecting air during filtration cycles or not? The pH tends to stay high even when allowing air during filtration cycles.

2) How do you decide what is the optimal setting for filtration cycles? The default is, I believe, twice a day for an hour. What would drive me to change that?

3) When the water gets a bit cloudy from small particles, the clarifier instructions suggest adding the chemical, running circulation without filtration for five minutes, then run the filtration for an hour. My compromise is to scatter the chemical over as much surface as I can and stir well by hand. Let sit five minutes and then turn the circulation on for an hour. Is this my best compromise? Does it matter if the jets are aerating or not for this?

Hi whoneeds, I think these are all personal preferences. I don't have my jets injecting air when not in use, because I've heard it was better not to introduce the cold air into the spa. Do you have a circulation pump or does one of the main pumps run during the filter cycles? Do you have an ozonator? I have a circulation pump and an ozonator and I have 2 filter cycles that are 6 hours each. The ozonator doesn't work unless it's running, so that's one of the reasons. Really, the only thing that should effect the length of your filter cycles is the water quality. If your water isn't staying clear and crisp, I would increase the filtration time. You mention the water getting cloudy and it could definately be caused by your short filtration cycles. You could try increasing your filter time and see if it gets rid of your need for clarifier.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I have a few questions I don't think I've ever seen addressed. To set the stage, our spa has some limitations, that being the compromise for a relatively affordable tub. You can turn the air to the jets on or off, you can turn some of the jets up, down or off, and you can shift the flow from one set of jets to another, or have both on. There is no option to circulate water without running it through the filter. You can also adjust the frequency of filtration cycles.

1) When the tub is not in use, is it better to have the jets injecting air during filtration cycles or not? The pH tends to stay high even when allowing air during filtration cycles.

2) How do you decide what is the optimal setting for filtration cycles? The default is, I believe, twice a day for an hour. What would drive me to change that?

3) When the water gets a bit cloudy from small particles, the clarifier instructions suggest adding the chemical, running circulation without filtration for five minutes, then run the filtration for an hour. My compromise is to scatter the chemical over as much surface as I can and stir well by hand. Let sit five minutes and then turn the circulation on for an hour. Is this my best compromise? Does it matter if the jets are aerating or not for this?

1) Leave the air off when not using the hot tub.

2) Filter should be at least 3 hrs twice a day. More if this does not keep it clean.

3) Add 1 oz of clarifier each week this will help keep your spa water clean and clear. Add this as you do your weekly maintainance ie: PH adjustment and shock

[Whoneedsavacation]

No ozonator. I think there is only 1 set of pumps, they run on a lower setting during filtration cycles.

I try to rinse the filter weekly, don't always manage that. However, the very small particles that cause cloudy water, I understand, actually make it through the filter.

Hillbilly, WHY leave the air off?

[chem geek]

A good clarifier is generally a polymer (usually charged; anionic if positive, cationic of negative) that consolidates suspended particles and clumps them together so that they can, in fact, get caught in the filter. So even though the individual particles themselves may be too small to get caught, their attachment to the larger polymer and the polymer's tendency to clump with other polymers with attached particles should get caught.

The other way to get rid of the suspended particles is to oxidize them. This is what an ozonator does, but MPS should also oxidize such particles. Shocking with high levels of chlorine can also oxidize them but then it takes time for the chlorine level to drop so usually MPS is more convenient (though more expensive) since you don't need to wait as long to get back into the spa. The last way to get rid of such particles is to use an enzyme which doesn't get rid of them directly, but helps normal levels of chlorine break them down more rapidly.

Richard

[Whoneedsavacation]

We have a bromine-floater system. I tried shocking fairly heavily with MPS, and I tried an enzyme product, but have had the best results with the polymer product... The water is just less "sharp" than I'd like, as it is just after a refill. We aren't due to refill for another month.

How often should filters be replaced?

[Whoneedsavacation]

How often should filters be replaced?

Anyone?

[TinyBubbles]

How often should filters be replaced?

Anyone?

I think my dealer suggested 6 months. I know people that have the same filter for 2 years. I'm planning on watching mine. I'm assuming I'll be able to tell when the've degraded enough to be replaced. I've heard that if they sink even after cleaning, they should be replaced.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

How often should filters be replaced?

Anyone?

I think my dealer suggested 6 months. I know people that have the same filter for 2 years. I'm planning on watching mine. I'm assuming I'll be able to tell when the've degraded enough to be replaced. I've heard that if they sink even after cleaning, they should be replaced.

Leaving the air off reduces the heating costs and decreases contaminates being brought into the tub. The air that is being sucked in can have dust, pollen mold ect. Filters usually last abot six months before the fibers start breaking down and allowing larger small particles through. The polymer clarifiers work well helping coleect this small particles as Chem Geek said. Clarifiers such as flocculants and coagulants are a type of polymer with a positive ionic charge. A polymer is a long molecule chain with many positively charged hooks throughout. The particulate material in pools is mostly negatively charged ions. Oppisites attract and the small negatively charges particles are caught in the positive hooks and are held. This process is known as coagulation. While coagulation causes the formation of larger more filterable particles, the process is still not complete. Flocculation, the formation of larger, more easily filtered particles is accomplished by bridging. Bridging is the effectual gathering of coagulated masses into even larger bundled particles. Many clarifiers coagulate, but not all completly flocculate. For example, synthetic polymers are petroleum based and therefore cannont remove floc oils. When selecting a clarifier go for one that is proven to reomove oils and organics through a complete coagulation and flocculation process. This will get rid of the water having that "dull" appearance. These kinds of clarifiers also make filter cleanening easier because they do not cause that awful goo, they also reduce the goo that may be left at the waterline in the tub.

[chem geek]

Though I haven't used it myself, OMNI Liquid Floc Plus (this MSDS says it contains a "Cationic polymer blend (Proprietary)") has been recommended and used by several pool users with success, but in this case the flocculant is so powerful that one is supposed to turn off the pump (circulation) and let the particles settle to the bottom and then vacuum to waste to remove them. This is probably too strong for simple clearing of the water in the spa through filtration. If you have any products you recommend for spas, please let us know.

Interestingly, PolyQuat algaecide used to be marketed as a clarifier before it was discovered that it was also a good algaecide and that far more profit could be made from it in this latter use. PolyQuat is a classic cationic (positively charged) polymer. Most cell surfaces are negatively charged so the polymer is attracted to them and blocks their ion channels. Though this inhibits algae growth and slowly kills algae, it also technically kills bacteria as well though it is much slower-acting than chlorine so cannot be claimed to be a sanitizer. I suspect that PolyQuat has more of the clarifying capabilities you described and not flocculation. Again, if you can recommend a good clarifier for spas, that would be helpful.

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Though I haven't used it myself, OMNI Liquid Floc Plus (this MSDS says it contains a "Cationic polymer blend (Proprietary)") has been recommended and used by several pool users with success, but in this case the flocculant is so powerful that one is supposed to turn off the pump (circulation) and let the particles settle to the bottom and then vacuum to waste to remove them. This is probably too strong for simple clearing of the water in the spa through filtration. If you have any products you recommend for spas, please let us know.

Interestingly, PolyQuat algaecide used to be marketed as a clarifier before it was discovered that it was also a good algaecide and that far more profit could be made from it in this latter use. PolyQuat is a classic cationic (positively charged) polymer. Most cell surfaces are negatively charged so the polymer is attracted to them and blocks their ion channels. Though this inhibits algae growth and slowly kills algae, it also technically kills bacteria as well though it is much slower-acting than chlorine so cannot be claimed to be a sanitizer. I suspect that PolyQuat has more of the clarifying capabilities you described and not flocculation. Again, if you can recommend a good clarifier for spas, that would be helpful.

Richard

Sea Klear is the brand that we have found that works great from spas, thats where the info on the differences is clarifiers came from. My customers love it, it is all natural (made from crab shells) It seems to be the wonder clarifier. They also make the best MPS at 45% active ingreident. Use less for the same money. Leisure time is only 31 or 32%. They also make other great products, I really love their stuff. Top quality on my opinion

[chem geek]

Sea Klear is the brand that we have found that works great from spas, thats where the info on the differences is clarifiers came from. My customers love it, it is all natural (made from crab shells) It seems to be the wonder clarifier. They also make the best MPS at 45% active ingreident. Use less for the same money. Leisure time is only 31 or 32%. They also make other great products, I really love their stuff. Top quality on my opinion

Thanks for the info. Standard Oxone from Dupont is about 43% Potassium Monopersulfate (aka peroxymonosulfate) so it sounds like Leisure Time is cutting that down. I suspect that Leisure Time Renew may have more Magnesium Carbonate in it to be more pH neutral since standard Oxone is acidic. The same company that makes Leisure Time also makes GLB and Robarb. The GLB Oxy-Brite for pools, for example, is more like pure Oxone at 43% active ingredient. So my guess is that the spa products are intentionally made more pH neutral. Of course, one can handle this on their own through separate addition of chemicals.

[tony]

Sea Klear is the brand that we have found that works great from spas, thats where the info on the differences is clarifiers came from. My customers love it, it is all natural (made from crab shells) It seems to be the wonder clarifier. They also make the best MPS at 45% active ingreident. Use less for the same money. Leisure time is only 31 or 32%. They also make other great products, I really love their stuff. Top quality on my opinion

Thanks for the info. Standard Oxone from Dupont is about 43% Potassium Monopersulfate (aka peroxymonosulfate) so it sounds like Leisure Time is cutting that down. I suspect that Leisure Time Renew may have more Magnesium Carbonate in it to be more pH neutral since standard Oxone is acidic. The same company that makes Leisure Time also makes GLB and Robarb. The GLB Oxy-Brite for pools, for example, is more like pure Oxone at 43% active ingredient. So my guess is that the spa products are intentionally made more pH neutral. Of course, one can handle this on their own through separate addition of chemicals.

LeisureTime Renew is a buffered non chlorine shock that is pH neutral. I don't use it because it is expensive and you have to use a lot of product compared to non buffered MPS (more than twice the amount). I use a very inexpensive non brand at 43%. Two pounds seems to last forever at 1.5 tablespoons per week.

[tony]

How often should filters be replaced?

Anyone?

Filters should last eighteen months and sometimes longer if taken care of. I use two filters and swap out every month so I clean one while the other is in use therefore I purchase new filters every three years or so.